Serve innovation
- Thread starter atp2015
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Bespectacled
Rookie
Simple, it's illegal and considered a foot fault.
http://officialtennisrules.com/foot-fault/
Of course, maybe you knew that and you're just trolling. Not sure.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
I didn't know running is not allowed - I thought nobody did it anymore because it didn't work very well to run in with a racket and a ball to hit.
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Bespectacled
Rookie
Well there's this spike serve:
It pushes the boundary of a legal serve. I would say that he is changing position and thus it is a foot fault. Most servers have a stationary front foot and then bring their back foot up, but if you think of the front foot as the pivot foot in basketball, you are still in one position.
That video is from 2009 so maybe it was declared illegal at some point.
And then there's his two handled racquet...
It pushes the boundary of a legal serve. I would say that he is changing position and thus it is a foot fault. Most servers have a stationary front foot and then bring their back foot up, but if you think of the front foot as the pivot foot in basketball, you are still in one position.
That video is from 2009 so maybe it was declared illegal at some point.
And then there's his two handled racquet...
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
cause we don't want to look like cucks
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It's done all of the time in volleyball for similar reasons. It can be quite effective against teams that have holes in their passing lineup.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
One other problem with is foot faulting as I see a guy at the club who runs about 3 steps to serve, but foot faults practically all the time (disgusting imo, but at least he doesn't play me, but only doubles with his buddies).
Bespectacled
Rookie
He's foot faulting just by taking the 3 steps regardless of whether he steps on the line or not.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Well, I didn't know that rule, but seeing him take a couple of steps into the court, each time, it's nauseating, b/c it can't be accidental.
Bespectacled
Rookie
Now you can call him on it because it's obvious if he's taking a couple of steps vs stepping on the line.
A
Attila_the_gorilla
Guest
So what's the ruling with regards to moving the feet on the serve? Some players lift their front foot slightly iff the ground as they rock back at the start of the motion. Why is that not a foot fault then?
Oops, just saw your link in a previous post.
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Bespectacled
Rookie
I think the spirit of the rule is that you do not materially change your position so that would be okay. But it leaves it open to interpretation if you say stand a few inches back of the line and then step or slide forward to the line. A few inches okay, but maybe 1' or 2' would be too much? Don't know.
Let me say, I've never encountered this as I don't play competitive tennis, but I read a lot of tennis magazine back in the 70s to 90s which is how I know about the rule.
WildVolley
Legend
No, Battistone's serve was not declared illegal. Battistone's serve is just as legal as using the pinpoint stance. Battistone actually moves his feet less than some other players who shift both feet into the shot.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@WildVolley
Have been wondering for years how Brian B got away with his modified volleyball jump serve. It appears that he start nearly 3' (1 meter) behind the baseline and takes a step of 2' or so with his front foot and then he pushes/lifts his back foot off the ground before he launches himself off the ground. His whole body appears to move forward 2' or so before he leaves the ground.
I don't believe that, with a conventional pinpoint stance, the whole body moves forward quite a much. In both instances (the BB jump serve and the PP serve), the body changes position significantly which would appear to violate the rules. However, the rules refer to a change of position 'by walking or running'. For the platform to PP movement, the feet are brought together. But for Brian's vball jump serve, he takes a large step forward with his front foot and then lifts the other foot. This could be considered walking or running more so than the PP movement.
Brian may have modified his jump serve movement a bit from 1999. His singles ranking has been outside of the top 1000 for most of his pro career playing mostly Futures and Challengers. He as fared somewhat better in Mens doubs and MxD. Not played much in ATP tournaments except, perhaps, for qualifying rounds. I believe that he make it once into the main draw of a slam. Lost in the 1st round of MxD at the USO. Perhaps if he had more success on the ATP tour, his serve might have been scrutinized more.
Have been wondering for years how Brian B got away with his modified volleyball jump serve. It appears that he start nearly 3' (1 meter) behind the baseline and takes a step of 2' or so with his front foot and then he pushes/lifts his back foot off the ground before he launches himself off the ground. His whole body appears to move forward 2' or so before he leaves the ground.
I don't believe that, with a conventional pinpoint stance, the whole body moves forward quite a much. In both instances (the BB jump serve and the PP serve), the body changes position significantly which would appear to violate the rules. However, the rules refer to a change of position 'by walking or running'. For the platform to PP movement, the feet are brought together. But for Brian's vball jump serve, he takes a large step forward with his front foot and then lifts the other foot. This could be considered walking or running more so than the PP movement.
Brian may have modified his jump serve movement a bit from 1999. His singles ranking has been outside of the top 1000 for most of his pro career playing mostly Futures and Challengers. He as fared somewhat better in Mens doubs and MxD. Not played much in ATP tournaments except, perhaps, for qualifying rounds. I believe that he make it once into the main draw of a slam. Lost in the 1st round of MxD at the USO. Perhaps if he had more success on the ATP tour, his serve might have been scrutinized more.
Maybe the key is that only one foot moves prior to the jump. I would think that the fellow has cleared his serve footwork with the authorities.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I believe that his oddball 2-handled racquet has been approved but not too certain that his vball jump serve hasn't resulted in some discussion and controversy. From Quora: "... However, there are some disagreements about the interpretation of this rule, and Brian Battistone has famously hit a jump serve in tournaments that skirts the legality issue a bit and has courted controversy." Since he has played primarily college and semi-pro tennis and very little ATP/slam tennis, the issued has not been pushed too much.
If this serve is to be considered legal, it would seem that the rules on serving and on foot faults need to be re-written.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
It's a gray area. The serve rules are vague. Nothing about only moving 1 foot or both feet. The rules allow for slight movement of the feet. But slight is not defined. It would appear that for many implementations of a pin point stance serve, the foot movement is more than slight. The step with Brian's left foot is anything but slight. There is also a change in body position in both cases -- more so for the BB jump serve, I believe.
However the question arises, is the change in position a result of walking or running? I would say probably not for the PP stance serve. But one could argue that point. Even less clear with the v'ball jump serve of BB. It appears to be more of a walk/run even tho he is talking one step (but a large step). Here are 2 different versions of the rules:
During the service motion, the server shall not:
(a) Change position by walking or running, although slight movements of the feet are permitted
The Server shall throughout the delivery of the Service:
(a) Not change his position by walking or running. The Server shall not by slight movements of the feet which do not materially affect the location originally taken up by him, be deemed "to change his position by walking or running".
WildVolley
Legend
My understanding is that because Battistone takes a single step, one less than many pinpoint, and neither walks nor runs into his jump, but simply steps forward and jumps, his serve was determined as legal. To make the Battistone serve illegal would most likely require rules either determining how much foot movement was legal on the serve, which would then impact all pinpoint servers.
If Battistone's large step were declared illegal, then tennis would probably have to institute a rule making the pinpoint stance illegal as it also involves taking a step during the serve, and many pros using pinpoint move both feet during the service motion (such as Safin). Though Battistone's large step forward does change the position of the server more than most pinpoint players who mainly step forward with the back leg.
If Battistone couldn't step forward, it would limit his jump height as it would be harder to get as much loading for his single leg jump if he started with a wide base and simply shifted his weight onto the front foot before the jump.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I'm staying away from the dude, want nothing to do with him.
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