Serve motion from side compared to Federer

FiReFTW

Legend
Today after a long long time I did some video footage of miself, just to see miself a bit after a while, did some serve side footage when I was warming up serves

So I decided to make a vid and also compare the motion to Fed, found a similar angle and similar side footage where he is also warming up his serve.

Thought you guys might like it, it was inspired by @ChaelAZ who did some similar comparisons to pros himself, and I thought it would be fun

In the past 1-2 months my focus in the serve was mostly getting the ball toss consistent and in the spot that is good and also really focusing on looking up and point my chest up and get that shoulder over shoulder action.

My video has much lower fps tho, so its not as smooth and jumps from frame to frame more, but you can slow it down in youtube even more or pause it at times to see positions.

@rogerroger917 @mad dog1 @J011yroger @S&V-not_dead_yet @nytennisaddict @Kevo @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @SystemicAnomaly etc..

 
Today after a long long time I did some video footage of miself, just to see miself a bit after a while, did some serve side footage when I was warming up serves

So I decided to make a vid and also compare the motion to Fed, found a similar angle and similar side footage where he is also warming up his serve.

Thought you guys might like it, it was inspired by @ChaelAZ who did some similar comparisons to pros himself, and I thought it would be fun

In the past 1-2 months my focus in the serve was mostly getting the ball toss consistent and in the spot that is good and also really focusing on looking up and point my chest up and get that shoulder over shoulder action.

My video has much lower fps tho, so its not as smooth and jumps from frame to frame more, but you can slow it down in youtube even more or pause it at times to see positions.

@rogerroger917 @mad dog1 @J011yroger @S&V-not_dead_yet @nytennisaddict @Kevo @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @SystemicAnomaly etc..

Nice job! Which one is Federer? :D
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Today after a long long time I did some video footage of miself, just to see miself a bit after a while, did some serve side footage when I was warming up serves

So I decided to make a vid and also compare the motion to Fed, found a similar angle and similar side footage where he is also warming up his serve.

Thought you guys might like it, it was inspired by @ChaelAZ who did some similar comparisons to pros himself, and I thought it would be fun

In the past 1-2 months my focus in the serve was mostly getting the ball toss consistent and in the spot that is good and also really focusing on looking up and point my chest up and get that shoulder over shoulder action.

My video has much lower fps tho, so its not as smooth and jumps from frame to frame more, but you can slow it down in youtube even more or pause it at times to see positions.

@rogerroger917 @mad dog1 @J011yroger @S&V-not_dead_yet @nytennisaddict @Kevo @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @SystemicAnomaly etc..

Which one is Fed?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Haha, you guys are funny but its not that identical, even tho I reach a very similar trophy pose my loop from start to trophy is somewhat different than Federer, he takes the racquet more behind and arm more stretched away sooner while my loop is shorter and more abbreviated.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Today after a long long time I did some video footage of miself, just to see miself a bit after a while, did some serve side footage when I was warming up serves

So I decided to make a vid and also compare the motion to Fed, found a similar angle and similar side footage where he is also warming up his serve.

Thought you guys might like it, it was inspired by @ChaelAZ who did some similar comparisons to pros himself, and I thought it would be fun

In the past 1-2 months my focus in the serve was mostly getting the ball toss consistent and in the spot that is good and also really focusing on looking up and point my chest up and get that shoulder over shoulder action.

My video has much lower fps tho, so its not as smooth and jumps from frame to frame more, but you can slow it down in youtube even more or pause it at times to see positions.

@rogerroger917 @mad dog1 @J011yroger @S&V-not_dead_yet @nytennisaddict @Kevo @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @SystemicAnomaly etc..

Awesome and it is a educational way to compare and learn. The challenge also becomes, if you are very close to a pro’s motion, what are the factors that keep you from comparable spin, pace, power, balance, etc.. A big take away for me is always how small differences in contact point make huge differences in the end shot.

And while form might be close what I also found is how much more explosive and fast there swing rates are. So I only slow down my swing 50% but the comparable pro would need to be slowed down 10-30% more to match because their RHS is that much greater.

Anyway, very cool and thanks for posting. I might get around to doing a serve comparison but with the shoulder/neck/back issue I look like a Captain Morgan. One leg train wreck with power, and I don’t need to see that lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Awesome and it is a educational way to compare and learn. The challenge also becomes, if you are very close to a pro’s motion, what are the factors that keep you from comparable spin, pace, power, balance, etc.. A big take away for me is always how small differences in contact point make huge differences in the end shot.

And while form might be close what I also found is how much more explosive and fast there swing rates are. So I only slow down my swing 50% but the comparable pro would need to be slowed down 10-30% more to match because their RHS is that much greater.

Anyway, very cool and thanks for posting. I might get around to doing a serve comparison but with the shoulder/neck/back issue I look like a Captain Morgan. One leg train wreck with power, and I don’t need to see that lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I also thing the amount of time and the amount of serves u hit is an important factor.

Someone who has hit 10 times more serves in his tennis life will always be better even if technique is good in both players, because they just have better timing, better contact point and everything.

Thats why you sometimes see some good players who have a good technique and are good like say... hm.. some college players, but they don't play and practice as much as say pro players or have the same amount of experience and have simply hit much less serves in their life.. so they might be capable of matching the pro player power, but only maybe every 10th or 20th serve when they really hit the ball clean with great timing and rhytm and contact point, and also not be able to place it well.. but the difference is that the pro can place it and hit it strong consistently.
 

Keendog

Semi-Pro
Looks good, no flaws. You must've worked hard on it from where you were a year ago. Was it coaching help or mere practice hours that got you there you think?

Where to from here do you think, are you trying to develop the ultimate weapon or have you shifted focus to other things now?

I don't put a lot of time into serving, I subscribe to Tomaz's idea that serving is just to start the point so have been putting my limited time into other things that I lack compared to the people I lose to, which is literally everything else.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Looks good, no flaws. You must've worked hard on it from where you were a year ago. Was it coaching help or mere practice hours that got you there you think?

Where to from here do you think, are you trying to develop the ultimate weapon or have you shifted focus to other things now?

I don't put a lot of time into serving, I subscribe to Tomaz's idea that serving is just to start the point so have been putting my limited time into other things that I lack compared to the people I lose to, which is literally everything else.
Good question.

Its mostly my own practice hours, coaches didn't really change much if anything when it comes to my serve.

Its probably the fact that ive spent 2 summers going like 1-2 times per week for an hour and just working on serve, also videoing miself and comparing to pro players and trying to get the technique right.

Some people on this forum like @J011yroger and @rogerroger917 also pointed out a few things that got me thinking from a different perspective and that I havent realized or noticed yet.

Then another important thing is probably experimentation, trying out different things and seeing how they feel or affect things.

My goal is always to get technique right,
now that im still "new" to tennis and my brain can easily pick up and learn and change things, in order to have a very good technical fundation in the long run, so I can maximize my potential.
My goal has always been the long run, doesnt matter if i lose now, my goal is to maximize things for the long run, and getting the technique and fundamentals down first and having a good base to build on is the most important thing, other things can all come with time and practice later like timing, experience, consistency, precision etc, but changing flawed strokes after 10 or 15 years when its automated in ur brain is the hardest thing to do.

Serve is the most important shot in tennis and so its a thing I love to focus on, and make a real weapon of, because if you can constantly hold serve you are hard to beat.

My goal for the serve is to keep working on it.

Currently my biggest goal this summer is to focus on kick serve and make it a consistent and tough serve to handle or attack.
And also to work on my 1st serve placement by hitting targets.

And also work on the first shot after the return and also volleys, to improve my finishing after good serves and shots in general.

And other small things aswell.
 
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Keendog

Semi-Pro
Good question.

Its mostly my own practice hours, coaches didn't really change much if anything when it comes to my serve.

Its probably the fact that ive spent 2 summers going like 1-2 times per week for an hour and just working on serve, also videoing miself and comparing to pro players and trying to get the technique right.

Some people on this forum like @J011yroger and @rogerroger917 also pointed out a few things that got me thinking from a different perspective and that I havent realized or noticed yet.

Then another important thing is probably experimentation, trying out different things and seeing how they feel or affect things.

My goal is always to get technique right,
now that im still "new" to tennis and my brain can easily pick up and learn and change things, in order to have a very good technical fundation in the long run, so I can maximize my potential.
My goal has always been the long run, doesnt matter if i lose now, my goal is to maximize things for the long run, and getting the technique and fundamentals down first and having a good base to build on is the most important thing, other things can all come with time and practice later like timing, experience, consistency, precision etc, but changing flawed strokes after 10 or 15 years when its automated in ur brain is the hardest thing to do.

Serve is the most important shot in tennis and so its a thing I love to focus on, and make a real weapon of, because if you can constantly hold serve you are hard to beat.

My goal for the serve is to keep working on it.

Currently my biggest goal this summer is to focus on kick serve and make it a consistent and tough serve to handle or attack.
And also to work on my 1st serve placement by hitting targets.

And also work on the first shot after the return and also volleys, to improve my finishing after good serves and shots in general.

And other small things aswell.
Are you rated? Are you still aiming for 5.0?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Are you rated? Are you still aiming for 5.0?
No, sadly here in Europe theres no such tournaments/leagues where they have official utr ratings and so and calculate them, which honestly is a bit annoying and pisses me off because it would be good to have an official rating and then see the improvements on paper.

I don't know why this utr thing is so common in USA but around the world its barely used at all, someone needs to do something about this so it starts to be used all over the world.

And yes, my ultimate goal is certainly in the 5.0 range, thereabouts UTR10-11
 

leojramirez

Rookie
I see two things
Right arm is not relaxed, you look at Fed's its so fluid.
The other thing is air action, you barely lift yourself up from the floor. He also lands with his whole foot inside the court. To me getting this in sync with the rest of the motion is the hardest, you need to toss the ball in the right place in front and really push your body forward.
The rest is pretty good so you are in the right path. And you are totally right about the most important shot in tennis.
I too try to take Fed's serve as an example, hopefully can get a comparative vid in soon as well.

Its true about the rating but you can sort of compare yourself to others in youtube as long as you are competing against similar level players and getting results in competition. Here in Spain the only way to get some sort of "official" level is by looking at your Federation rating. I think a decent 5.0 should be about 3k national rating if I look for those types of players from my club. The top guy in my club looks like a 5.5 or 6, now in his early 40s, he used to compete when he was a teen, flawless technique that only those people that were thought as very young have. He is at 2k national rating, Nadal being Spain's number 1 ;D

Which part of Italy you from?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I see two things
Right arm is not relaxed, you look at Fed's its so fluid.
The other thing is air action, you barely lift yourself up from the floor. He also lands with his whole foot inside the court. To me getting this in sync with the rest of the motion is the hardest, you need to toss the ball in the right place in front and really push your body forward.
The rest is pretty good so you are in the right path. And you are totally right about the most important shot in tennis.
I too try to take Fed's serve as an example, hopefully can get a comparative vid in soon as well.

Its true about the rating but you can sort of compare yourself to others in youtube as long as you are competing against similar level players and getting results in competition. Here in Spain the only way to get some sort of "official" level is by looking at your Federation rating. I think a decent 5.0 should be about 3k national rating if I look for those types of players from my club. The top guy in my club looks like a 5.5 or 6, now in his early 40s, he used to compete when he was a teen, flawless technique that only those people that were thought as very young have. He is at 2k national rating, Nadal being Spain's number 1 ;D

Which part of Italy you from?
Thanks for the feedback.
Im not from Italy, im from Slovenia, small country next to Italy. :p
 

Dan R

Semi-Pro
I see two things
Right arm is not relaxed, you look at Fed's its so fluid.
The other thing is air action, you barely lift yourself up from the floor. He also lands with his whole foot inside the court. To me getting this in sync with the rest of the motion is the hardest, you need to toss the ball in the right place in front and really push your body forward.
The rest is pretty good so you are in the right path. And you are totally right about the most important shot in tennis.
I too try to take Fed's serve as an example, hopefully can get a comparative vid in soon as well.

Its true about the rating but you can sort of compare yourself to others in youtube as long as you are competing against similar level players and getting results in competition. Here in Spain the only way to get some sort of "official" level is by looking at your Federation rating. I think a decent 5.0 should be about 3k national rating if I look for those types of players from my club. The top guy in my club looks like a 5.5 or 6, now in his early 40s, he used to compete when he was a teen, flawless technique that only those people that were thought as very young have. He is at 2k national rating, Nadal being Spain's number 1 ;D

Which part of Italy you from?

You're serve looks great, but I'd echo the comment about relaxation. You're serve has more tension in it than Federer's. No shame in that but I think it might be due to the beginning move. Fed keeps the palm down longer, and swings the racket back more effortlessly. If you can keep tension out of the swing in the beginning that can help keep it out throughout. There's a video where the coach says to his student serve like you are drunk, and then sober up right a impact. He's joking but I think there's a bit of truth in that.

Good looking motion.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
You're serve looks great, but I'd echo the comment about relaxation. You're serve has more tension in it than Federer's. No shame in that but I think it might be due to the beginning move. Fed keeps the palm down longer, and swings the racket back more effortlessly. If you can keep tension out of the swing in the beginning that can help keep it out throughout. There's a video where the coach says to his student serve like you are drunk, and then sober up right a impact. He's joking but I think there's a bit of truth in that.

Good looking motion.
Good advice, something to experiment fpr sure.

Sometimes im more relaxed sometimes less, but for sure when im more relaxed I get more pop and everything.
 

Toby14

Professional
Fire - I think you got your fundamentals right, thumps up, good work man, keep on. I would point a few smaller adjustments out:

- Be more relaxed - se video by Taylor Dent (he doet not have much pronation but still hits 148)
- Hit more up to the ball
- Tossing arm up longer and use it to generate force when pulling down
- Look up to the ball a little longer

 

FiReFTW

Legend
Fire - I think you got your fundamentals right, thumps up, good work man, keep on. I would point a few smaller adjustments out:

- Be more relaxed - se video by Taylor Dent (he doet not have much pronation but still hits 148)
- Hit more up to the ball
- Tossing arm up longer and use it to generate force when pulling down
- Look up to the ball a little longer

Very cool tips will try for sure!
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Is that the same platform stance that you use for your non-warmup serves?

Your feet are lined up more than Fed/Sampras platform stances. The video you show is from Fed warming up, in a match he generally uses a more staggered stance with his right toe behind his left heel. Same for Pete.

Your stance also seems just a little bit wide.

I think you can get a little more coil/power from a slightly more narrow, and more staggered platform stance. Food for thought...




 

FiReFTW

Legend
Is that the same platform stance that you use for your non-warmup serves?

Your feet are lined up more than Fed/Sampras platform stances. The video you show is from Fed warming up, in a match he generally uses a more staggered stance with his right toe behind his left heel. Same for Pete.

Your stance also seems just a little bit wide.

I think you can get a little more coil/power from a slightly more narrow, and more staggered platform stance. Food for thought...




Thats exactly what im working on in these past days, ive noticed the same thing and im experimenting with this a bit lately, really trying to get my feet like you show here.
Feels a bit odd im not used to it, but I feel like its better for my serve overall, now I just need to get used to it.

Thats some very good perception skills to notice such small differences, im impressed!
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Thats some very good perception skills to notice such small differences, im impressed!
Thanks, that's how they trained us in engineering school :)

Actually, I've been working on improving my own serving mechanics by studying many of the great servers of the past few decades. It all starts with a good base for the feet!

I use pinpoint stance - platform has always felt very foreign to me! But, from what I have seen, platform servers tend to have more similar characteristics than pinpoint servers. Pinpoint feet positioning can be all over the place (from Edberg/Ivanisevic/Rafter back toe well in front of front toe, to Isner/Roddick back toe near front heel), whereas platform tends to be more consistent among the great servers (back toe behind front heel and a fairly narrow stance - Fed, Pete, McEnroe).

Best of luck and be sure to keep posting your improved serves for more feedback!
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Today after a long long time I did some video footage of miself, just to see miself a bit after a while, did some serve side footage when I was warming up serves

So I decided to make a vid and also compare the motion to Fed, found a similar angle and similar side footage where he is also warming up his serve.

Thought you guys might like it, it was inspired by @ChaelAZ who did some similar comparisons to pros himself, and I thought it would be fun

In the past 1-2 months my focus in the serve was mostly getting the ball toss consistent and in the spot that is good and also really focusing on looking up and point my chest up and get that shoulder over shoulder action.

My video has much lower fps tho, so its not as smooth and jumps from frame to frame more, but you can slow it down in youtube even more or pause it at times to see positions.

@rogerroger917 @mad dog1 @J011yroger @S&V-not_dead_yet @nytennisaddict @Kevo @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @SystemicAnomaly etc..

Damn dude don't change a thing. Your serve is perfect technique, i guess just focus on placement and consistency from here. Well done. I am envious!

P.S. show us that sxc forehand bby
 

bitcoinoperated

Professional
Your serve looks brilliant now. I've followed (and commented on) your progress vids on and of and the progress has been inspiring: that with work and the resources we have it is possible to get to decent serve technique.
 
.................... video by Taylor Dent (he doet not have much pronation but still hits 148)
................................
I don't agree that Taylor Dent does "not have much pronation". I assume that you mean internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and pronation before impact..

When the arm is near straight the wrist/palm is seen to rotate due to both internal shoulder rotation (ISR) plus pronation. The ISR has been measured to produce more rotation than forearm pronation in a high level serve.

Wrist Rotation = ISR + Pronation, as seen in high speed videos

Upper Arm Rotation = ISR, as seen in high speed videos - look for shadows at the elbow. Unfortunately for this video, Dent's elbow, in that lighting with a bit of motion blur, is not showing complete workable shadows.

Let's look at how the wrist/hand rotates instead of the upper arm at the elbow. The wrist/palm would be equal to ISR plus pronation.

An analysis of Taylor Dent's internal shoulder rotation plus pronation using the wrist and racket handle and shaft-

Frame #1. Try to estimate how the racket shaft is rotating as it would be seen from above. Imagine the racket as it would be seen from above and rotating clockwise (right hand server). This video frame is around the time of the Big L (inverted "L" as formed by the racket and arm.) The forearm to racket angle looks a little less than 90d. This frame is a checkpoint for a high level serving technique called 'edge on to the ball'. Elbow is not as straight as in the next frame.


Frame #2. The wrist and racket shaft have rotated clockwise as seen from above. 30 d +/ - ? Also the head of the racket has risen and the forearm-to- racket angle has increased to above 90 d. This results from upward motion of the elbow and wrist joint. The upward motion of the racket head is rapid.


Frame #3. The racket shaft has continued to rotate but the angle is hard to estimate accruately from this view. Racket shaft looks tilted back more than a side view usually shows, in my opinion. Maybe we can estimate better now, using the racket handle at the fingers, how much the racket shaft has rotated. ISR + pronation estimated very roughly as 60 d or more total. ?



Frame #4. This frame is my best guess as closest to impact (always show impact in videos for stroke analyses). The hand has obviously rotated from Frame #3. Look at the finger tips and thumb for example.



Frame #5. This is probably after impact and the racket face may tilt foreward and be closed. ? It looks as if the finger tips have continued to rotate.


It would have been better to see clear shadows at Dent's elbow to prove that the rotation at the wrist was mostly due to ISR. This could be done with better lighting for shadows (time of day) and less motion blur. A tape marker could also be attached just above the elbow at a location where the skin cannot flop around much. The bones are a better references since they don't flop around like, for example, the skin over the bicep muscle.
 
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Toby14

Professional
Chas I always enjoy your very competent analysis, so I am sure you are right. What I see is that he does go so far out to the right with his racquet, but bore straight down, I think I remember a thread where that was not seen as pronation.

I can only see frame #1 the others dont show up at my ipad.

Anyway my take on pronation is that it is a very natural movement when using a throwing motion. I pronate and dont even think about it nor trying to enforce it, just happen naturaly.

Cheers, Toby
 
Chas I always enjoy your very competent analysis, so I am sure you are right. What I see is that he does go so far out to the right with his racquet, but bore straight down, I think I remember a thread where that was not seen as pronation.

I can only see frame #1 the others dont show up at my ipad.

Anyway my take on pronation is that it is a very natural movement when using a throwing motion. I pronate and dont even think about it nor trying to enforce it, just happen naturaly.

Cheers, Toby
For some unknown reason some of my pictures post and then they disappear. This happened in an earlier thread on Murray's serve also.
You can go to the video and get the frame I showed as Frame #1. On Youtube to move one frame use the "." key. To go back the "," key. The frames are the ones leading to impact and probably one after impact. No frames were skipped.

The frames make clear that there is significant rotation at the wrist & racket before impact. And that the effect of the ISR rotation on the racket head speed increases it on the first two frames because of the angle between the forearm and racket shaft. .

Do you have some video evidence that Dent does not 'pronate' as much as other high level servers before impact?
 
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dgold44

G.O.A.T.
Today after a long long time I did some video footage of miself, just to see miself a bit after a while, did some serve side footage when I was warming up serves

So I decided to make a vid and also compare the motion to Fed, found a similar angle and similar side footage where he is also warming up his serve.

Thought you guys might like it, it was inspired by @ChaelAZ who did some similar comparisons to pros himself, and I thought it would be fun

In the past 1-2 months my focus in the serve was mostly getting the ball toss consistent and in the spot that is good and also really focusing on looking up and point my chest up and get that shoulder over shoulder action.

My video has much lower fps tho, so its not as smooth and jumps from frame to frame more, but you can slow it down in youtube even more or pause it at times to see positions.

What speed ??
Looks solid
@rogerroger917 @mad dog1 @J011yroger @S&V-not_dead_yet @nytennisaddict @Kevo @Toby14 @r2473 @xFullCourtTenniSx @SystemicAnomaly etc..

 
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