Serve placement challenge for 6 weeks

zill

Legend
No cure is needed. Anyone who can serve with a continental grip can make it a weapon if they’re happy to work on it. Hit thousands of serves at targets. Not for an unmotivated person for sure. Let them search for a cure.


You have no understanding of limitations. Keep working in your 1hb.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Sharing a positive experience from serving today. A really big factor in creating a really wide serve is a low contact height which in my case is also a low toss but doesn’t have to be I guess. With a lower contact height you can fully swipe across the outside of the ball. A little higher and you lose that effect. Give that a go. It’s huge.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
2nd week of flat T serve. Extremely difficult to aim as it requires excellent timing of pronation. Actually it’s very hard to hit a completely flat serve due to the same reason.


 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Sharing a positive experience from serving today. A really big factor in creating a really wide serve is a low contact height which in my case is also a low toss but doesn’t have to be I guess. With a lower contact height you can fully swipe across the outside of the ball. A little higher and you lose that effect. Give that a go. It’s huge.
Depends on what you mean by wide. I'm the opposite. I can lower cp a little for slice to corner in deuce but have to raise CP for hitting middle of the sideline. Prefer lower toss on kick serve in general for the wide kick after bounce.
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
2nd week of flat T serve. Extremely difficult to aim as it requires excellent timing of pronation. Actually it’s very hard to hit a completely flat serve due to the same reason.


I tend to hit true flat to middle T in deuce and wide corner in ad. To access middle T in ad, topslice first serve produces more aces and higher percentage for me.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Depends on what you mean by wide. I'm the opposite. I can lower cp a little for slice to corner in deuce but have to raise CP for hitting middle of the sideline. Prefer lower toss on kick serve in general for the wide kick after bounce.
I get what you’re saying. I meant it’s easier to create good slice with a lower contact point.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I get what you’re saying. I meant it’s easier to create good slice with a lower contact point.
Be a little careful with that on slice. If you start to produce some under spin with low toss and slightly open racquet face, ball likes to go long when you hit hard and hit through.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I tend to hit true flat to middle T in deuce and wide corner in ad. To access middle T in ad, topslice first serve produces more aces for me.
The ultimate goal in this challenge is to build a repertoire of all types of serves targeting various spots in the box at the end of 18 weeks. Then in matches I’ll pull out a mixture of them not to give the opponent any rhythm of return.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Be a little careful with that on slice. If you start to produce some under spin with low toss and slightly open racquet face, ball likes to go long when you hit hard and hit through.
No underspin. Pure side spin with the racket swiping the right side of the ball.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
The ultimate goal in this challenge is to build a repertoire of all types of serves targeting various spots in the box at the end of 18 weeks. Then in matches I’ll pull out a mixture of them not to give the opponent any rhythm of return.
18weeks probably not enough. I would be happy if I can achieve that goal within 8 years.
 

zill

Legend
18weeks probably not enough. I would be happy if I can achieve that goal within 8 years.

If you have the right fundamental service motion then you will be able to confidently attempt to hit any spot. But figuring out that motion is the hard part.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
If you have the right fundamental service motion then you will be able to confidently attempt to hit any spot. But figuring out that motion is the hard part.
disagree. The basic motion takes 2-3 years. Getting different serve types to different locations with high enough percentage and good ball action takes more years especially without coaching.
 

zill

Legend
disagree. The basic motion takes 2-3 years. Getting different serves types to different location with high enough percentage takes more years especially without coaching.

I was referring to find not just the basic motion but the optimal motion for oneself. Hint: if you think you will need 8 years to be able to hit the different serves then you have not found your optimal motion.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I was referring to find not just the basic motion but the optimal motion for oneself. Hint: if you think you will need 8 years to be able to hit the different serves then you have not found your optimal motion.
Philosophical difference here. Won't convince me. I don't lump minor adjustments into basic motion. Also don't misquote me.

What I said was:
Getting different serve types to different locations with high enough percentage and good ball action

Quite a few local 4.5s playing 20+ years and even some UTR 9+ girls don't meet that bar in my view. Or at least they are not deploying all serves in the matches.
 
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zill

Legend
I don't lump minor adjustments into basic motion.
For me if you have the right fundamental motion that suits you the best then there are no minor adjustments, no matter the type of serve. The elite servers even have the same toss but most mere mortals cannot achieve this which is fine.


Also don't misquote me.

What I said was:
Getting different serve types to different locations with high enough percentage and good ball action

That is the definition I am subscribing to also. And I claim if you have the right fundamental motion then achieving this is relatively easy. Like 18 weeks is ample time as C hopes to achieve. I believe C has his motion down pact and can achieve this.

18 weeks of focused intensive practice. Of course it won’t stop there. I’ll keep practicing regularly to maintain it.

That is confidence.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
It’s becoming more and more obvious that repetition is the only thing you need when it comes to mastering serve placement.


Is it just me? Looks like you were trying to hit slice and got accidental kick to the right after bounce on quite a few balls when serving from ad.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Is it just me? Looks like you were trying to hit slice and got accidental kick to the right after bounce on quite a few balls?

to the right is the only direction it can 'kick', no? it's just on hard this is minimally visible against the aerodynamic force that pushes the ball to the left.

on clay what happens is upon landing the ball skids foward and 'plows' some dirt to form a tiny 'mole hill', so the spin can 'climb' up this hill and gives the appearance of kicking to the right.

this is the same reason the topspin game is more effective on clay.

you can check when C serves on that green plastic court the kick is less visible.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
to the right is the only direction it can 'kick', no? it's just on hard this is minimally visible against the aerodynamic force that pushes the ball to the left.

on clay what happens is upon landing the ball skids foward and 'plows' some dirt to form a tiny 'mole hill', so the spin can 'climb' up this hill and gives the appearance of kicking to the right.

this is the same reason the topspin game is more effective on clay.

you can check when C serves on that green plastic court the kick is less visible.
Is he trying to kick to the middle T? For a while my slice serve had unintended kick, fixed that. My kick still has accidental slice from time to time these days.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Is he trying to kick to the middle T? For a while my slice serve had unintended kick, fixed that. My kick still has accidental slice from time to time these days.

tennis players call them slice and kick.

physicists would say what's the diff... you have a ball that has both top and side spin, just a small difference in the rotation axis.

due to the more forward swing path on a slice, the rotation axis is more upright, so when the ball lands, the touch down is near the south pole of the ball, therefore the kicking effect is less, only exaggerated a bit by the mole hill effect on clay.

with a more sideways swing path on a kick, the rotation axis is tilted more forward, so the touch down is closer to the equator, therefore the kicking effect is more.

both serves have

- the kicking effect due to Newton's 2nd, the ball tries to move the earth to the left, so the earth moves the ball to the right - the kick; and

- the magnus effect that pushes the ball to the left.

tennis players call them slices and kicks simply because one effect overcomes the other, or vice versa.
 
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Dragy

Legend
Is it just me? Looks like you were trying to hit slice and got accidental kick to the right after bounce on quite a few balls when serving from ad.
Yeah that’s an effect noticeable on clay courts unless your slice is pure/underspin. It bothered me sometimes when the ball curved nicely short of box corner on the deuce court, and then noticeably bounced back towards returner…
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Yeah that’s an effect noticeable on clay courts unless your slice is pure/underspin. It bothered me sometimes when the ball curved nicely short of box corner on the deuce court, and then noticeably bounced back towards returner…
:-D lol maybe I didn't fix mine. I just shifted to indoor hard courts from clay. Will find out in 5 months
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
How big are those pockets? It’s like watching a clown pulling a handkerchief.
Went to quite a few stores to find my ‘serve practice shorts’. 6 balls each but don’t like putting balls in the right one as it’s annoying to move them to the left later.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
Is it just me? Looks like you were trying to hit slice and got accidental kick to the right after bounce on quite a few balls when serving from ad.
Now I’m at the most meaningful part of my project: topslice serves. I guess accidental slice or kick will happen for a while.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Warming up hitting to the middle. It shows how ineffective a serve is without good placement unless you’re hitting really fast flat serves maybe. Need to make the opponent stretch or move a few steps before they hit the ball to get return errors or weak returns hence the huge importance of placement practice.


 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
The serve isn't unlike FH or BH. We get it after we understand it, no?
No. If it were as simple as just understanding it then you and me and everyone else would almost immediately be able to undo all those years serving with incorrect or flawed technique.

Bypassing your brains "muscle memory" is no trivial exercise and it is the reason so many waiters tray serves stay as waiters trays, despite many efforts to correct them. A fine case and point is Chas; he understands the serve and its submotions but admits he cannot execute them at a high level.

@StringSnapper has a slightly advanced version of a waiters tray which CAN be fixed imo, it will just take a lot of dedicated work, and for him maybe it isn't worth the effort.

No cure is needed.
You don't have a waiters tray. If someone has a waiters tray and wants to turn their serve into a bigger weapon, then a cure IS needed and technical changes are going to be required. There is no way around that.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
No. If it were as simple as just understanding it then you and me and everyone else would almost immediately be able to undo all those years serving with incorrect or flawed technique.

Bypassing your brains "muscle memory" is no trivial exercise and it is the reason so many waiters tray serves stay as waiters trays, despite many efforts to correct them. A fine case and point is Chas; he understands the serve and its submotions but admits he cannot execute them at a high level.

I think you're right. Understanding it is one thing. Implementing it is another. Most rec players just do not have to facility or means or a good plan to learn to do it properly. We do everything on our own and we have no idea when we derail.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Topslice continued.
What should I do to produce more topspin than slice? Lower contact point?
This is just what worked for me. Toss more towards the target, swing more towards the target, swing fast but imagining brushing top of the ball. My contact point is relatively low and fairly far into the court. It's completely different from how I hit kick/twist serve.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
This is just what worked for me. Toss more towards the target, swing more towards the target, swing fast but imagining brushing top of the ball. My contact point is relatively low and fairly far into the court. It's completely different from how I hit kick/twist serve.
I was thinking of tossing a little more to the left.:unsure:
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Btw is a topslice serve a slicey version of a kick serve? Like 8 to 2 swing path vs a 7 to 1. What’s the difference exactly?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You'll get topslice by the end of next week. Kick will be tough. That contact point is probably not very natural for you. There are a ton of kick serve threads already.
I can do 7 to 1 swing. Isn’t that a kick serve? I can’t do pure topspin serve, which is 6 to 12 as I understand it.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I can do 7 to 1 swing. Isn’t that a kick serve? I can’t do pure topspin serve, which is 6 to 12 as I understand it.
If you want the kick wide action, the contact point needs to be at the left of your head. Your hand path needs to be more parallel to the baseline.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Can you hit a kick serve where the ball bounces high and twists to the right after the bounce? Typically it involves tossing over your head. Now toss more to your right and swing with the same motion on the ball - you’ll get a mix of topspin and slice where the ball bounces high and moves to the left after the bounce. A lot of older players who used kick as their 2nd serve when they were younger switch to a topslice because it is easier on the back to hit a topspin swing with the toss to the right.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Can you hit a kick serve where the ball bounces high and twists to the right after the bounce? Typically it involves tossing over your head. Now toss more to your right and swing with the same motion on the ball - you’ll get a mix of topspin and slice where the ball bounces high and moves to the left after the bounce. A lot of older players who used kick as their 2nd serve when they were younger switch to a topslice because it is easier on the back to hit a topspin swing with the toss to the right.
I like the idea. The kick serve swing with a contact a little more to the right. (y)
 
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