Serve Pronation & golfer's elbow

[yemenmocha]

How do you correct technique when the serve pronation is the cause of golfer's elbow?

I didn't think it was possible but can you pronate too much?

Could it be a slightly bent arm at the point of contact when pronating?

Anyone have experience in fixing a serve that caused this injury?

 

[Moz]

I'd love to know the answer to this also. Interested to hear if any of the responses differ based on the type of spin you are trying to impart on the ball.

 

[Quasar]

Keep a soft feeling in your elbow as you pronate through the ball. Grip it lightly and let it flow. Watch Federer hit some serves on youtube, he must grip it lightly and feel a soft elbow through impact. It still moves fast, but unforced.

 

[fuzz nation]

Pronation is becoming a dirty word in tennis circles because it can put your arm at risk for strains or tendonitis if you turn your arm/wrist in some unnatural positions as you swing. Some degree of pronation should happen as a result of other things that you do correctly with your service motion including using the proper grip and a good swing path for a certain serve. Yes, there is such a thing as too much of it and I think that the idea of giving the ball a "high five" as you serve can encourage a better motion than the idea of forcing your palm out as you reach to the ball. According to the gurus, you don't want to actively concentrate on pronating as you serve.

Some folks do especially well with a throwing motion which I think naturally relates to a serve for many players. Throwing a football, even a lighter "nerf" ball, is good drill because the outside edge of your hand leads the inside edge - none of that over pronating going on. You can even think of a karate chop over the top as you serve to keep your palm from facing outward too far. For a harder, flatter serve you can use a grip more toward an eastern forehand and to make more spin, grip in the neighborhood of continental toward eastern backhand to hit the ball with a more angled racquet face.

 

[Quasar]

If you don't pronate, and you just karate chop, you will never have a legit serve. There is nobody on the ATP tour who doesn't pronate. If you're going to tell a guy not to pronate you might as well tell him to serve underhand and be a pusher.

You can pronate while preventing, or greatly decreasing, elbow problems by doing what I said in my last post.

 

[yemenmocha]

I see what you're both saying.

I took fuzz to be saying to not consciously pronounce the pronation so much, and about the right amount will come through if you mentally focus as he did.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

How do you correct technique when the serve pronation is the cause of golfer's elbow?

I didn't think it was possible but can you pronate too much?

Could it be a slightly bent arm at the point of contact when pronating?

Anyone have experience in fixing a serve that caused this injury?

I can be a lot of things and we need to see film on your serve.

1. It could be in your toss

2. It could be in your forward/upward motion

3. It could you are muscling the ball some

4. It could be in your grip

5. It could be your lack of use of the legs.

6. Lack of rotation

 

[Quasar]

I see what you're both saying.

I took fuzz to be saying to not consciously pronounce the pronation so much, and about the right amount will come through if you mentally focus as he did.

Ok, I agree then, but it seemed very misleading.

How much pronation are you doing exactly? If you use a continental grip, where is your racket facing when your hand is around head height coming into the ball and where is your racket facing in the early part of your followthrough?

 

[yemenmocha]

I'm going to get a video next week sometime and ask for further assistance then.

Thanks for replies thusfar.

 

[volusiano]

You're just assuming that pronation from serving is causing you to have elbow problems, but that may be the wrong assumption. It may be other components of your serve like Bungalo Bill said. Or heck, it may not have been caused by your serve at all.

Why do you think pronation is the cause?

 

[yemenmocha]

Because all other factors are constant, including racquet & string in recent months. The new element was a few lessons with a pro who helped me with my serve. I stopped having shoulder pain, got more "whip" on the pronation snap, and then within weeks of that switch the elbow problem appeared.

After letting the elbow heal for 4-5 days I can hit all strokes but the serve w/out agitating the arm. After serving 1-2 sets of doubles, the problem is back.

Update: had another lesson. Problem seems to be fixed. Pronation with bent arm. Toss is more left than should be and so the arm is bent at the elbow, yet still getting pronation snap. With toss more right and slightly higher contact point I still get snap but no pain.

I guess one good thing about a repetitive stress injury is it can sometimes clearly let you know if you're doing the thing that agitates it or not!!

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Update: had another lesson. Problem seems to be fixed. Pronation with bent arm. Toss is more left than should be and so the arm is bent at the elbow, yet still getting pronation snap. With toss more right and slightly higher contact point I still get snap but no pain.

Good. I figured it might be in the toss. Most serve problems are with the toss whether it is injury related or performance related.

I guess one good thing about a repetitive stress injury is it can sometimes clearly let you know if you're doing the thing that agitates it or not!!

Yes, sometimes it can.

 

[thebuffman]

Keep a soft feeling in your elbow as you pronate through the ball. Grip it lightly and let it flow. Watch Federer hit some serves on youtube, he must grip it lightly and feel a soft elbow through impact. It still moves fast, but unforced.

Quasar your post, I am certain, is a god-send but for people like me who are not up on some of the proper tennis terms, I am a bit lost and confused. If you or someone who can interpret for me your statement of a "soft elbow", I will be most grateful. I suffer from golfer's elbow and I can feel it happen when I pronate through my serve.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Quasar your post, I am certain, is a god-send but for people like me who are not up on some of the proper tennis terms, I am a bit lost and confused. If you or someone who can interpret for me your statement of a "soft elbow", I will be most grateful. I suffer from golfer's elbow and I can feel it happen when I pronate through my serve.

A soft elbow means it is not tight in that area. It means your hand to your shoulder is completely loose. Many players tighten their shoulder on the serve (or other parts of the arm) without knowing it.

For the serve, your arm AND shoulder needs to be completely loose and flexible. Your range of motion in the shoulder and your ability to relax it entirely while allowing your motion to whip it around is paramount to a good serve.

When you grip the racquet grip it loosely.

You need to completely relax the bottom two fingers. Some players move those fingers off the handle but I only move the pinky off because it is the pinky that applies the main source of strength in the hand concerning your grip.

Do this test:

1. Make a fist with your first two fingers and squeeze hard. You can even try this on your racquet handle. Sort of difficult to really squeeze down isnt it?

2. Now, allow your bottom two fingers to join in. Amazing how much more strength you have in your hand from these two fingers. The two bottom fingers is what you want to have completely relaxed for your serve.

For groundstrokes and volleys, you want to have just enough pressure from them to control the racquet head but still have a relaxed and flexible stroke.

 

[thebuffman]

this is why i LOVE this forum. i never knew anything about this concept. keep advice like this coming because i am continually seeing rapid improvement in my service game just from what you all post here. i will try this and i am sure it will help with the morning after pain i have on the inside elbow.

 

[thebuffman]

A soft elbow means it is not tight in that area. It means your hand to your shoulder is completely loose. Many players tighten their shoulder on the serve (or other parts of the arm) without knowing it.

For the serve, your arm AND shoulder needs to be completely loose and flexible. Your range of motion in the shoulder and your ability to relax it entirely while allowing your motion to whip it around is paramount to a good serve.

When you grip the racquet grip it loosely.

You need to completely relax the bottom two fingers. Some players move those fingers off the handle but I only move the pinky off because it is the pinky that applies the main source of strength in the hand concerning your grip.

Do this test:

1. Make a fist with your first two fingers and squeeze hard. You can even try this on your racquet handle. Sort of difficult to really squeeze down isnt it?

2. Now, allow your bottom two fingers to join in. Amazing how much more strength you have in your hand from these two fingers. The two bottom fingers is what you want to have completely relaxed for your serve.

For groundstrokes and volleys, you want to have just enough pressure from them to control the racquet head but still have a relaxed and flexible stroke.

just want to say thanks for the advice. i just got back from the court practicing my service game and i did as you said, gripping the racquet with my first two fingers and letting the ring and pinky hang off the bottom. i experienced no golfer elbow pain and i generated a lot more pace (i had a large percentage of my balls bounce once and then hit the back fence).

 

[acer]

Because all other factors are constant, including racquet & string in recent months. The new element was a few lessons with a pro who helped me with my serve. I stopped having shoulder pain, got more "whip" on the pronation snap, and then within weeks of that switch the elbow problem appeared.

After letting the elbow heal for 4-5 days I can hit all strokes but the serve w/out agitating the arm. After serving 1-2 sets of doubles, the problem is back.

Update: had another lesson. Problem seems to be fixed. Pronation with bent arm. Toss is more left than should be and so the arm is bent at the elbow, yet still getting pronation snap. With toss more right and slightly higher contact point I still get snap but no pain.

I guess one good thing about a repetitive stress injury is it can sometimes clearly let you know if you're doing the thing that agitates it or not!!

Hi yemenmocha

I just had a question. In your lesson did your instructor advise you that hitting with pronation and a bent arm (due to a low toss) would cause tennis elbow or golfer's elbow?

I have a low toss and hit with a lot of spin and I am pretty sure that this is the cause of my bouts of tennis elbow and golfer's elbow. I am always working on getting a higher toss.

Just wanted to see if this is what he told you as it confirms what I thought was the cause of my tennis and golfers elbow. Let me know.

Thanks so much

Acer

 

[larry10s]

acer to get an extended arm and force a higher toss try having to jump up to hit the ball. it also forces you to use more legs and get more of the kinetic chain in your serve.

 

[samster]

A soft elbow means it is not tight in that area. It means your hand to your shoulder is completely loose. Many players tighten their shoulder on the serve (or other parts of the arm) without knowing it.

For the serve, your arm AND shoulder needs to be completely loose and flexible. Your range of motion in the shoulder and your ability to relax it entirely while allowing your motion to whip it around is paramount to a good serve.

When you grip the racquet grip it loosely.

You need to completely relax the bottom two fingers. Some players move those fingers off the handle but I only move the pinky off because it is the pinky that applies the main source of strength in the hand concerning your grip.

Do this test:

1. Make a fist with your first two fingers and squeeze hard. You can even try this on your racquet handle. Sort of difficult to really squeeze down isnt it?

2. Now, allow your bottom two fingers to join in. Amazing how much more strength you have in your hand from these two fingers. The two bottom fingers is what you want to have completely relaxed for your serve.

For groundstrokes and volleys, you want to have just enough pressure from them to control the racquet head but still have a relaxed and flexible stroke.

Nice trick. How did you do that?

 

[acer]

acer to get an extended arm and force a higher toss try having to jump up to hit the ball. it also forces you to use more legs and get more of the kinetic chain in your serve.

Thanks larry10s for the tip. I will give it a try.

 

[VoodooBoot]

A soft elbow means it is not tight in that area. It means your hand to your shoulder is completely loose. Many players tighten their shoulder on the serve (or other parts of the arm) without knowing it.

For the serve, your arm AND shoulder needs to be completely loose and flexible. Your range of motion in the shoulder and your ability to relax it entirely while allowing your motion to whip it around is paramount to a good serve.

When you grip the racquet grip it loosely.

You need to completely relax the bottom two fingers. Some players move those fingers off the handle but I only move the pinky off because it is the pinky that applies the main source of strength in the hand concerning your grip.

Do this test:

1. Make a fist with your first two fingers and squeeze hard. You can even try this on your racquet handle. Sort of difficult to really squeeze down isnt it?

2. Now, allow your bottom two fingers to join in. Amazing how much more strength you have in your hand from these two fingers. The two bottom fingers is what you want to have completely relaxed for your serve.

For groundstrokes and volleys, you want to have just enough pressure from them to control the racquet head but still have a relaxed and flexible stroke.

Great post, Bill. It reminds of this picture (it's been posted around here before) of Sampras' relaxed hand:

 

[Chas Tennis]

You should not play tennis with Golfer's Elbow pain.

The exact cause of injuries is rarely documented or on videos. I have read that that Golfer's Elbow is believed to be associated with the forehand and serve. In what I have found so far, there is a lot of uncertainty on the causes of injuries and few specifics.

Search: common tennis injuries

You use the term pronation to describe the serve. What actually goes on for the serve, that supplies heavy forces, is upper arm internal shoulder rotation (ISR), not forearm pronation. The meaning of the terms, the joint motion definitions, need to be correct for discussing this issue.

I don't know how forearm pronation might cause Golfer's Elbow. But I believe that ISR during serving with improper technique - including an excessive angle in the elbow - might. I have not found references.

Examine an old video of your serve. Compare your technique to those of high level servers.

A second issue is that normally tennis is stressful and certain strokes cause more stress at certain joints even with proper techniques. When you have pain stop immediately any activity that causes pain, and recover. See the Tennis Elbow and GE threads in the Health & Fitness forum.

 

[Curious]

I don't know how forearm pronation might cause Golfer's Elbow.

That's because the pronator muscle is attached to the medial epicondyl where you have pain with Golfers elbow. Also the ulnar collateral ligament is located in the same spot which could be strained due to forceful internal shoulder rotation. It may not be very easy to tell whether it's this ligament or the tendon of forearm flexor muscles or pronator muscle causing the problem.

I just wanted to revive the thread to get opinion from people about some sort of serve modification that may help ease this strain. Yeah I believe it's mainly the serve with pronation that triggers it.

Correction for underlined part: Actually passive external shoulder rotation during the throwing phase.

 

[Chadillac]

You should not play tennis with Golfer's Elbow pain.

You can still play, just avoid serving and hitting overheads. High forehands can hurt to.

I can hit my flat and kick pretty well now, the slice still hits the bad spot, so i dont slice.

Also get off the poly if you use it

 

[Chas Tennis]

You can still play, just avoid serving and hitting overheads. High forehands can hurt to.

I can hit my flat and kick pretty well now, the slice still hits the bad spot, so i dont slice.

Also get off the poly if you use it

Stressing an injured tendon is associated with tendinosis (defective healed tendon tissue) according to publications. Tendinosis is often a chronic and debilitating injury. Even then there is often a lot of uncertainty. Search: Tendon Injury Nuthouse

For some reason uncertainty is hardly mentioned in forum posts. ?

 

[Chas Tennis]

That's because the pronator muscle is attached to the medial epicondyl where you have pain with Golfers elbow. Also the ulnar collateral ligament is located in the same spot which could be strained due to forceful internal shoulder rotation. It may not be very easy to tell whether it's this ligament or the tendon of forearm flexor muscles or pronator muscle causing the problem.

I just wanted to revive the thread to get opinion from people about some sort of serve modification that may help ease this strain. Yeah I believe it's mainly the serve with pronation that triggers it.

Correction for underlined part: Actually passive external shoulder rotation during the throwing phase.

Do you have a reference on GE & the pronator muscle? I gave myself an injury that I have believed is Golfer's Elbow and would like to see the reference. I was experimenting with ESR & ISR for volleying a few years before I knew what ISR was.

What other muscles are attached to the medial epicondyl? Wrist & fingers tendons I believe.? Are they clearly separated tendons and attachments or do they group together at the medial epicondyle?

One method I have assumed causes GE is to hit the ground with the golf club. I have no reference. Tennis elbow is more common in golf than golfer's elbow.

This says GE probably associated with the wrist flexor.
http://www.melbourneshouldersurgeon.com.au/golfer-elbow.html

 

[Chadillac]

Stressing an injured tendon is associated with tendinosis (defective healed tendon tissue) according to publications. Tendinosis is often a chronic and debilitating injury. Even then there is often a lot of uncertainty. Search: Tendon Injury Nuthouse

For some reason uncertainty is hardly mentioned in forum posts. ?

I think i had a touch of both, gripping and pulling a big matress through a tight spot hurt me, lifting a 90lb stump of out the ground reinjured.

Tendon injury will instantly gimp you, tennis elbow just hurts. Ive had tennis elbow on both sides a few times, its nothing compared to the injury @Curious was talking about, a lot of junk in that area of arm.

I was speaking on what i did, im near the end now Didnt serve today, but arm feels nothing, would usually hurt if i extended my arm, even using the mouse.

oops, wrong name, great info

 

[Curious]

Do you have a reference on GE & the pronator muscle?

Reference is basic anatomy and reasoning. Tendon of the pronator teres muscle attaches to the medial epicondyl and you overuse/strain this tendon by serving a lot with proper pronation.

 

[Chas Tennis]

If I think I have a new tendon injury I believe that I should take 3 months off minimum.

I got a shoulder injury in Dec in an escalator accident. After 7 weeks, recovery was slow. I had planned to play tennis soon so I got it checked out, complete thickness tear of the supraspinatus. I am now 7 weeks after surgery. The good news is that the tear was small, about 1 cm. The bad news is that I'm not young and the recovery is 9 months....

I played platform tennis a few times after the injury but I'm very glad I had enough sense to stop while the tear was still small. Don't play on a newly injured tendon or possible tendon injury. Read the publications that say 2 weeks of stress can lead to tendinosis.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Reference is basic anatomy and reasoning. Tendon of the pronator teres muscle attaches to the medial epicondyl and you overuse/strain this tendon by serving a lot with proper pronation.

I believe that GE has been associated with the serve and forehand.

Here is where the improper use of terms can be seriously misleading. On the serve, the term 'pronation' is incorrectly used to describe what is primarily internal shoulder rotation. I can see the stress on those large ISR muscles, the lat and pec, stretched from ESR and shortened rapidly just before impact. Those pec and lat tendons seem to hold up. When the final ISR forces start maybe the small pronator muscles have to lock down the forearm to transmit the ISR rotation from the upper arm to the wrist and racket. ?

Maybe also the small pronator muscles are also stretched or stressed earlier when the elbow is bent and that causes stress and GE injury? I hurt my a tendon at my medial condyle by doing ESR and then active ISR as forcefully as I could with elbow at 90d. First or second attempt, ping, pain, I tore something I believe it was a tendon, sharp pain. I played on it and made it worse. About 3 weeks after the injury I found a book that said 'in as little as 2 or 3 weeks a new tendon injury can become a chronic injury consisting of defectively healed tendon tissue' maybe incurable. I stopped playing and all stress at that time, 3 weeks after the injury. Since that time 97%+ pain free over time and occasional GE tinges when I do certain things, especially a reverse serve with racket path to the left of ball.I've had other GE injuries including left arm and took 3 months off.

I believe that there is a baseball pitching stress that is related to GE and maybe a little league injury similar to GE.

 

[Curious]

If you throw the racket with ISR only you will end up hitting the ball with the edge of the racket. It's pronation that opens the racket face just before hitting the ball( last moment high five). What do you think is incorrectly used in this description?

 

[Chas Tennis]

If you throw the racket with ISR only you will end up hitting the ball with the edge of the racket. It's pronation that opens the racket face just before hitting the ball( last moment high five). What do you think is incorrectly used in this description?

"If you throw the racket with ISR only you will end up hitting the ball with the edge of the racket." (Throw? Released it goes to the side or forward depending on when released and has a wild spin/wobble.)

No. In the serve it goes to the side of the hand and forward and the string face would meet the ball. See pictures below. I'd say that you are viewing the racket as moving straight forward from ISR, it doesn't.

"It's pronation that opens the racket face just before hitting the ball" Opens means what? Not the opposite of closed?

ISR and pronation with a straight arm are both rotating the direction that the strings point in exactly the same way.

I believe that this is ISR acceleration at first and ISR might slow just before impact and some pronation appears because the racket in moving at high speed. The speeds are published in the early work, one estimate for racket head speed was 40% from ISR and 5% from pronation. Even if there were no muscle forces for pronation, still pronation could appear as ISR slacks off because of the momentum of the racket.

See how the racket head goes to the side from ISR and pronation. I view the edge-on to impact as nearly all powered by ISR with some incidental pronation before impact. I see the racket smoothly rotating as it moves forward with no special rotations 'just before impact'. I have been mainly interested in the nature of ISR for the serve following the break through work of the biomechnics researchers, Elliott, Marshall et al. There is also pronation and suplination before the significant ISR starts (about 25 milliseconds before impact) as this picture shows.

I can't see forces in videos and I don't believe that they are measured for the serve so there is some speculation.