Serve Quality: Roddick, Isner, Karlovic, Raonic vs the 90s servers

[dominikk1985]

People are often saying that there are no big servers around anymore (exept maybe fed who is a great server albeit not a pure "bomber") and basically all players besides fed are pushers.

but are the 90s servers like sampras, becker, goran, krajicek really better servers (not players just servers) than the big 4 servers of this era?

Roddick was a good player but the other 3 basically survive just based on their serve (Isner and Raoniv have a powerfull FH on a good day but it is mostly a kill shot to feast on the weak replies they get because the do not have the footwork to use it effectively out of a defensive position).

And still those guys top the hold percentage lists despite having less game and playing on much slower surfaces.

hold percentage (I think stats since 1991 or so are included)
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=4&s=0&y=0

1. karlovic
2.Isner (milos currently tied second but doesn't qualify because he has not enough serve games)
3. roddick
4. sampras
6. fed
7. krajicek
10. boris (OK his prime years in the mid to late 80s are missing so this is slightly unfair to him)
11. goran

So basically all the leaders come from the early 2000s to early 2010s era despite the conditions they face and often a lack of non serve game.

could we argue that the big 4 servers (fed too but he has so much overall game that I don't know what is caused by his serve and what by his groundgame) are the best servers ever and better than the big bombers of the 90s like pete, goran, boris and others?

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

Stupid, moronic, no IQ, ******** post.

All players beside Fed pushers? Are you serious? How many brain cells do you have?

There are no big servers except Fed? I'm speechless. You believe this when you write it? This place is full of morons.

:lol: :lol:

i believe domininik said "people say that..."..

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

today's biggest servers:

Karlovic
Isner
Querrey
Janowicz
Miloooooooooooosh
Amagro
Anderson
Tsonga
Berdych
De Schepper
Monfils
.... and others!

And please don't forget guys like Dolgopolov or Feliciano Lopez, both serving BIG!

 

[droliver]

The guys today are serving as big as ever with higher serve % in then guys in the past. The level of the average serve and the best serves is generally higher to me then the 1990's. The #'s guys like Roddick, Isner, and Karlovic put up week in and out in terms of pace and consistency is unprecedented

 

[Beast of Majorca]

Interesting stat. I guess it comes down to the current guys just having much better serves because I seriously doubt anyone would argue that they have a better game outside of their serves than someone like Sampras. And them having better serves especially holds true when you consider that they're playing on slower surfaces.

 

[GoaLaSSo]

I'm a bit confused by this post. The big servers of today are better at serving than most of the 90s players, whether the 90s fans are willing to admit it or not. Some of those 90s guys were amazing and had more complete games overall, but the raw serving power out of roddick, isner, karlovic, etc. is greater. One could argue that people like sampras did more with mixing up serves and placement, but I still would not put only his serve above isner's. Sampras has a world class game to back up his serve, while a lot of the big servers today do not.

They still hold incredibly well playing with larger racquet heads, slower surfaces, and much more defensive/return oriented players.

 

[90's Clay]

Theres more than just being a "big server". Disguise and placement is equally as important.

Look at how Federer and Agassi completely TORE Roddick's serve in two. Heck even Sampras tore Roddick's serve apart at the USO. Mainly because that while he had the power, he didn't have the disguise and placement. It was easier to read and return

 

[TMF]

People are often saying that there are no big servers around anymore (exept maybe fed who is a great server albeit not a pure "bomber") and basically all players besides fed are pushers.

but are the 90s servers like sampras, becker, goran, krajicek really better servers (not players just servers) than the big 4 servers of this era?

Roddick was a good player but the other 3 basically survive just based on their serve (Isner and Raoniv have a powerfull FH on a good day but it is mostly a kill shot to feast on the weak replies they get because the do not have the footwork to use it effectively out of a defensive position).

And still those guys top the hold percentage lists despite having less game and playing on much slower surfaces.

hold percentage (I think stats since 1991 or so are included)
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=4&s=0&y=0

1. karlovic
2.Isner (milos currently tied second but doesn't qualify because he has not enough serve games)
3. roddick
4. sampras
6. fed
7. krajicek
10. boris (OK his prime years in the mid to late 80s are missing so this is slightly unfair to him)
11. goran

So basically all the leaders come from the early 2000s to early 2010s era despite the conditions they face and often a lack of non serve game.

could we argue that the big 4 servers (fed too but he has so much overall game that I don't know what is caused by his serve and what by his groundgame) are the best servers ever and better than the big bombers of the 90s like pete, goran, boris and others?

Today's players serve better than the 90s. If given the court was as fast as the 90s, these guys would have even better stats. Karlovic & Isner first serve is unstoppable.

 

[dominikk1985]

Stupid, moronic, no IQ, ******** post.

All players beside Fed pushers? Are you serious? How many brain cells do you have?

There are no big servers except Fed? I'm speechless. You believe this when you write it? This place is full of morons.

I actually stated the opposite...

 

[coloskier]

Guys are serving big now. BUT.... the big difference is that servers like Sampras, Stich, and Becker hit corners with much more frequency. Roddick, Ivo, and others hit bombs, but rarely to the corners with a high success rate. Especially Roddick.

 

[roberttennis54]

Theres more than just being a "big server". Disguise and placement is equally as important.

Look at how Federer and Agassi completely TORE Roddick's serve in two. Heck even Sampras tore Roddick's serve apart at the USO. Mainly because that while he had the power, he didn't have the disguise and placement. It was easier to read and return

The stats don't back up what you are saying. Why has Roddick held serve at a higher percentage than Sampras and Federer despite, having less overall game? Roddick must have the most underrated serve of all time.


Karlovic clearly has the best serve of the last 25 years or so and then after that comes a number of players like Isner, Goran and Roddick. Sampras is a little behind this pack. After that comes the likes of Krajicek, Greg, Raonic and then Federer is in the tier after that.

 

[papertank]

Karlovic has the greatest serve of all time.

 

[Ballinbob]

I think Isner has the best second serve of all time

 

[Laurie]

I thought there was going to be a 10% differential or something, but of course this is Tennis Warehouse so as usual everything is blown completely out of proportion. Here's the top 20

Games Won Total Games % Matches
1 Ivo Karlovic 5025 5513 91 409
2 John Isner 4002 4436 90 312
3 Andy Roddick 8836 9807 90 780
4 Pete Sampras 9443 10641 89 836
5 Wayne Arthurs 3339 3784 88 278
6 Roger Federer 12080 13706 88 1081
7 Richard Krajicek 6808 7806 87 616
8 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 4291 4953 87 381
9 Greg Rusedski 7630 8822 86 693
10 Boris Becker 4771 5563 86 443
11 Goran Ivanisevic 7922 9244 86 766
12 Rafael Nadal 7490 8758 86 741
13 Mark Philippoussis 5510 6461 85 494
14 Ivan Ljubicic 7473 8764 85 689
15 Michael Stich 4706 5519 85 456
16 Kevin Anderson 2517 2961 85 232
17 Patrick Rafter 5551 6555 85 521
18 Novak Djokovic 6483 7668 85 616
19 Jim Courier 5984 7108 84 568
20 Juan M Del Potro 3940 4682 84 391

Not sure why Becker's match total is so low. Also, Sampras played just under 1000 matches so again not sure whats going on.

Like I said, you would have thought Karlovic was like 95% and Sampras would be 4th at 78% or something the way this discussion has ben going. I wonder how many people actually bothered to click the link and look at the stats before making "uninformed" comments. There's a 2% differential but Sampras has played twice as many matches so in reality has an exemplary hold record at 89% (although as I say matches are clearly missing here anyway).

On the point of surfaces and skill, I've mentioned numerous times on articles and forums, the skill of hitting the serve down the ad court with slice is a lost art is mens tennis. Especially the art of hitting slice at pace, and combining slice with topspin so it is breaking away from the returners forehand, and kicking up at the same time.

Despite the fact the players today who serve well (besides Federer who is old school obviosuly), they don't have good games to back up their serve, they are prone to be broken when they face the better players.

So Karlovic's stats are amazing and I've seen him play live 10 years ago at Wimbledon , an amazing serve - but how often does he face and beat top 10 players? And Raonic? And Isner? The stats would come into their own if these guys are beating real quality superstars on a regular basis, otherwise its nice fun but not meaningful in any way

As the great Bill Threllfall said all those years ago "Statistics damned statistics!".

 

[dominikk1985]

beckers total is low because only stats from 91 onwards are included. if you include 85-90 he probably moves up the list a few ranks but I don't think to top5 (maybe 6th-8th).

The top guys are indeed close and I'm not saying Isner, roddick and karlovic are vastly superior to pete, I was just saying that the are AT LEAST very close despite much less favorable conditions.

 

[Laurie]

beckers total is low because only stats from 91 onwards are included. if you include 85-90 he probably moves up the list a few ranks but I don't think to top5 (maybe 6th-8th).

The top guys are indeed close and I'm not saying Isner, roddick and karlovic are vastly superior to pete, I was just saying that the are AT LEAST very close despite much less favorable conditions.

Dominik

The issue concerning the statistics is not conditions and surface speeds per se, its the fact that the players mentioned have compiled good stats but not against the top players, because they don't play the top guys often enough and beat them on a regular basis, so the stats to have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Roddick has proven himself against the top players over a long period of time so his stats are legitimate.

I would alaso add that I am not impressed at all with Milos Raonic as a tennis player. Can he be a late bloomer like a Pat Rafter? Although Pat Rafter was five times more athletic than Raonic so maybe not a good comparison.

 

[rodrigoamaral]

racquet and string technology has changed so much so you cant compare the 2 eras... also, look at todays returners compared to back then

 

[gsharma]

On the point of surfaces and skill, I've mentioned numerous times on articles and forums, the skill of hitting the serve down the ad court with slice is a lost art is mens tennis. Especially the art of hitting slice at pace, and combining slice with topspin so it is breaking away from the returners forehand, and kicking up at the same time.

That is a very hard serve to hit. A slight mistake in the angle of the racquet face and it will turn into a twist serve - in other words, after bouncing it'd kick-up *into* the returner instead of kicking up and the ball would also slow down after bouncing, allowing the returner more time.

Murray has a decent slice serve with pace in the ad-court, that goes away from the returner. Sampras had a great one.

 

[Russeljones]

Karlovic's serve would maybe have been unbreakable on 90's hard courts.

 

[NLBwell]

I'll give Karlovic and Isner a separate category. Bombs coming out of trees. Of course, Karlovic came on to the scene in 2003 (IIRC) beating Hewitt at Wimbledon, which is much closer to the 90's than to today.
The higher bouncing courts of today help Isner, though. In the soft grass/indoor carpet days of serve and volley, the ability to volley low at your feet and the ability to scramble to low balls on defense were critical. Movement was much more of an issue for tall guys than it is today with the higher bouncing courts. (Karlovic plays a lot of serve and volley so it isn't as different for him now versus the 90's.)
If you take those two guys out, I don't see any particular pattern of the era of the player in the % games won.

 

[Romismak]

Roddick´s serve was about 2 things - great velocity - huge bombs - but not as good placement - not so many aces like other guys would hit with those speed numbers on 1st serves

2nd-fantastic service motion that make it possible for him to serve so big

Howewer i think Ivo,John, Milos are level above that - they are probably best servers in history- only Goran can be grouped to them as king of servers from 90s.

Today guys serve as big if not bigger -thanks to new racquets and have more spin on serve and higher FS% - so it´s like playing in ice hockey vs older generation and wooden sticks.

Karlovic - 2007 - 08 can have argument for being best server in history

Isner generally speaking about last years can have argument being best server ever too- the FS% is unbelievable high and his 2nd serve is mentioned by most guys as best 2nd serve on the tour.

Raonic - he is somehow limited with his height, also his FS% is lower than those guys, but his 1st delivery is best on the tour in last 2 years - velocity, placement, that slice serve gives him so many aces too.

 

[Romismak]

People are often saying that there are no big servers around anymore (exept maybe fed who is a great server albeit not a pure "bomber") and basically all players besides fed are pushers.

but are the 90s servers like sampras, becker, goran, krajicek really better servers (not players just servers) than the big 4 servers of this era?

Roddick was a good player but the other 3 basically survive just based on their serve (Isner and Raoniv have a powerfull FH on a good day but it is mostly a kill shot to feast on the weak replies they get because the do not have the footwork to use it effectively out of a defensive position).

And still those guys top the hold percentage lists despite having less game and playing on much slower surfaces.

hold percentage (I think stats since 1991 or so are included)
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=4&s=0&y=0

1. karlovic
2.Isner (milos currently tied second but doesn't qualify because he has not enough serve games)
3. roddick
4. sampras
6. fed
7. krajicek
10. boris (OK his prime years in the mid to late 80s are missing so this is slightly unfair to him)
11. goran

So basically all the leaders come from the early 2000s to early 2010s era despite the conditions they face and often a lack of non serve game.

could we argue that the big 4 servers (fed too but he has so much overall game that I don't know what is caused by his serve and what by his groundgame) are the best servers ever and better than the big bombers of the 90s like pete, goran, boris and others?

Why are you talking about Roger he is not among best servers, people should finally realize differce between service game hold and serve itself as shot - Roger´s service numbers are great, because his game is great, but he is hardly top 10 server - by far level bellow big guns like Ivo.

And the same about Sampras and Bekcer- they were big servers in their time but they are not in the same league with Isner please...

 

[Romismak]

Guys are serving big now. BUT.... the big difference is that servers like Sampras, Stich, and Becker hit corners with much more frequency. Roddick, Ivo, and others hit bombs, but rarely to the corners with a high success rate. Especially Roddick.

Have you ever seen Ivo serving? Actually there are many servers with bigger bombs-higher velocity than Ivo- he isn´t hitting hardest, but he always hit corners - that´s why he has so many aces, Actually Ivo is from all most placement oriented less power

 

[Xemi666]

People are often saying that there are no big servers around anymore (exept maybe fed who is a great server albeit not a pure "bomber") and basically all players besides fed are pushers.

No succesful big servers, more like.

 

[coloskier]

The guys today are serving as big as ever with higher serve % in then guys in the past. The level of the average serve and the best serves is generally higher to me then the 1990's. The #'s guys like Roddick, Isner, and Karlovic put up week in and out in terms of pace and consistency is unprecedented

Pace and consistency, yes. Accuracy, no. Sampras could hit either corner at will, with either his 1st or 2nd serve for a very high percentage. And when Ivanesevic was on, he would hit paint in the corners. Roddick and Ivo try to hit through you, and not necessarily in corners, with Ivo being more accurate in the corners. Isner would be the closest now to the past servers when it comes to going for corners, although many times his serve to the BH corner on the ad court leaves him for sets at a time.

 

[tipsa...don'tlikehim!]

Karlovic's serve = nightmare for anyone, even at 35 years old