Serve receivers who overrule their partners who call baseline serves out

[Tdub]

If you think there's something funny about this scenario, you're right. It violates Rule 25 of the USTA Code. Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence. It shows how few players know the rules, and how few of them understand the "geometry" of line calling, which gave rise to this rule and rule 9, which states that line calls should be made by players looking down the line, as opposed to across the line. Players who violate rule 25 are in the habit of trying to judge all line calls on the court, regardless of where they are standing. They think they have supernatural vision, and think they don't need to be looking down the line to make an accurate call. Do such partner overrules stand, on the basis of a disagreement by the partners yielding the point to the opponents per the rules? I suggest not, because this is not a bona fide disagreement between the partners. A genuine disagreement would require some basis for it. The context and circumstances would have to indicate some reason for a disagreement. Here there is none. According to Code rule 25, the line call of a serve landing around the serve baseline is to be made by the receiver's partner, not the receiver, therefore it doesn't matter what the receiver thinks or says in this case.

 

[Shroud]

If you think there's something funny about this scenario, you're right. It violates Rule 25 of the USTA Code. Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence. It shows how few players know the rules, and how few of them understand the "geometry" of line calling, which gave rise to this rule and rule 9, which states that line calls should be made by players looking down the line, as opposed to across the line. Players who violate rule 25 are in the habit of trying to judge all line calls on the court, regardless of where they are standing. They think they have supernatural vision, and think they don't need to be looking down the line to make an accurate call. Do such partner overrules stand, on the basis of a disagreement by the partners yielding the point to the opponents per the rules? I suggest not, because this is not a bona fide disagreement between the partners. A genuine disagreement would require some basis for it. The context and circumstances would have to indicate some reason for a disagreement. Here there is none. According to Code rule 25, the line call of a serve landing around the serve baseline is to be made by the receiver's partner, not the receiver, therefore it doesn't matter what the receiver thinks or says in this case.

Weird. If a serve hits the baseline it has to be out. Think you mean the service line

 

[travlerajm]

When your partner is blind, you need to step up and do the right thing.

 

[socallefty]

When your partner is blind, you need to step up and do the right thing.

When your partner is a cheat, you need to step up and do the right thing. Sometimes partners can be cheats, sometimes blind and sometimes even blind cheats.

 

[middleballs]

I don’t want to sound rude here, but your lengthy post in combination with constant referencing to “rule 25” makes you seem dogmatic.

 

[Tdub]

It's about the partner being blind, not a cheat, as there's an element of the partner thinking he's being "nice" overruling his partner - he of course doesn't understand the fundamental difference between different views of the ball landing.

 

[Tdub]

people who play with the same, small group of doubles players are not likely to encounter this problem. It's where you're playing with new players on a regular basis. Some of these players, receiving serve, seem to want to overrule their partners when their partners make a close out call on a serve which hits on/near the serve baseline, because it often looks in to the receiver, looking across the line.

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

If a call is obviously wrong it's your duty to overrule the call and give the point up.

In the circumstance u r giving to overrule it would need to a very bad call on depth by rp or it could be that the receiver has a better view, if for instance the ball lands near the T then receiver has 2 lines of reference to help in making a correct decision.

In this latter case I've overuled my partner who then proceeded to whiff every ball for the remainder of the match. Whats more, I would do so again in the same circumstances. In the case I am referring to the ball was 4 inches inside the service line and also wholly inside the T line.

This was social tennis, but in a match i will overrule obvious errors particularly where I am in the best position to see.

I agree with the point that players overuling partners from the worst view on court should rarely happen, however obvious errors must be corrected.

In addition players from the worst view on court shouldn't be the ones making the call since even if correct on a close call they're by definition not in a position to be not giving the opponents the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Connor35]

When your partner is blind, you need to step up and do the right thing.

Agree. This happened to me just this weekend.
Returning serve on the Ad side; my partner called a serve out, and I could tell by the bounce that it clipped the line.
Checked the mark and sure enough it hit the back of the line.
Point theirs.

Agree you should let the partner make those calls. But if I *know* I'm going to overrule him.

 

[lockbox]

It was mentioned before but it's likely you're referring to service line (instead of baseline).

Both rules 25 and rule 9 use the terms "should" and "may" respectively. Yes, as the returner you have the view "looking down the line" on the sideline and your partner has the "looking down the line" view of the service line. Those respective players should be the ones making the calls, but it is not required under the rules. If you were the partner (at the service line) and called it out and your partner called it in, it's a disagreement and the point should go to the server.

As anything with doubles goes, talk with your partner about it. But either player can make either call.

 

[Tdub]

I disagree. A disagreement must be bona fide, or genuine, based on rational criteria. It's not rational, and therefore would lack a basis, for the serve receiver to overrule his partner looking down the line, being close to where the ball lands, not moving, and not distracted by having to return the ball. This is by far the best position/scenario on the court for making a line call (in this case by the receiver's partner). If the receiver's partner makes a close call, it will look in to the serve receiver, because from his position the ball, where it lands (out), visually covers the space between the line and the ball.

 

[lockbox]

Then I disagree with you. Since you're so keen on citing rules:

Rule 6 ..."a player is guided by the principle that any doubt must be resolved in favor of an opponent."

Rule 14: "...give your opponents the call that most benefits them."

There is also rule 11 requesting an opponent's help to see if they saw it in/out. Nevertheless, it seems if you and your partner can't get on the same page, you've got bigger concerns in your doubles partnership than this singular line call.

 

[LuckyR]

Since the OP is describing "overrules", all such calls will result in giving the opponents the point, regardless of who does the overruling and what the respective calls are.

 

[sovertennis]

Hasn't this topic been beaten to death? Also, Tdub, you're wrong. If I'm receiving and the serve hits the service line, I'm overruling an out call from my partner. Your tortuous, specious argument does not nullify the basic spirit--and Rule 6-- of the rules of the game.

Looking forward to your next thread (how about "In mixed, is it ok for me to intentionally hit at the woman if I have a sitter and she's at the net?" Haven't seen some form of that topic in at least a month).

 

[ChaelAZ]

Somebody gets overruled by partners often.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Hasn't this topic been beaten to death? Also, Tdub, you're wrong. If I'm receiving and the serve hits the service line, I'm overruling an out call from my partner. Your tortuous, specious argument does not nullify the basic spirit--and Rule 6-- of the rules of the game.

Looking forward to your next thread (how about "In mixed, is it ok for me to intentionally hit at the woman if I have a sitter and she's at the net?" Haven't seen some form of that topic in at least a month).

The ball you say in on the line can very well be 1-2 cm long — but it appears to be on the line from a Returner’s perspective. Even a static ball that is placed a cm or so past the service line will not normally be seen as OUT by R. The RP can often see such a small gap that R can’t see. It can be even more difficult with a moving ball — particularly given a shallow incident angle.

The RP should be making most, if not all, calls on the back service line. Ok for R to be making calls on both service box sidelines but they should rarely overrule close calls made by RP on the back service line.

Exception: If the RP is making a lot of bad calls because their head / eyes are still moving as the ball is bouncing, this should be rectified. Trained linespersons are taught to get their eyes to the line BEFORE the ball bounces — so that their head & eyes are no longer moving as the ball is bouncing.

 

[Friedman Whip]

If you're good at reading marks you should be able to tell which person's call is actually the right one. Almost every time on a clay court, and a high percentage of the time on a hard court, provided the balls are new and the courts are not really old. And if your eyes are good.
You will still lose the point because of a disagreement but for the future it might be helpful to know which player knows what he is doing and who doesn't.

 

[dannyslicer]

I've never seen a serve receiver overrule the guy standing at the service line

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I've never seen a serve receiver overrule the guy standing at the service line

It happens.

I had one partner. as the returner, was calling a lot of close serves long (OUT). As the RP, it was primarily my job to call that line.

As the RP, if I said nothing, it should be assumed that I determined that the serve was good. If I made no call, then he was, in effect, overruling me when he would make an OUT call on that line.

Every time he made such a call, the opponents, believing the serve to be IN, would always look to me — since I was the one who was supposed to be making the calls on that line.

 

[Hit 'em clean]

We can all agree that the person looking directly down the line has a better view of the ball. However... you neglect to realize that even though that scenario is true... it doesn't mean that the person in the best position to make that line call gets it right every time. I have no problem with a returner in doubles calling a ball out when his partner doesn't. The difference is when it's close or you think your serve is 'in' you can simply ask the non-returning partner to confirm the 'out' call.

It's simply tough to call lines when you're playing. Even when you're not returning you're still moving and trying to play/position yourself, etc. Be honest, play fair, when in doubt call favor the opponent. You have to give some people grace and latitude with line calls.

Sure there are people that outright cheat, but most of us are just trying to do our best and that means you will experience a bad line call or two in a match that doesn't go your way. If they play honest and fair... you'll also probably get more calls to your benefit than not.

 

[socallefty]

If I see a ball in, I call it in. If it means over-ruling my partner, so be it. Usually I explain to my partner that it doesn’t mean my call is more accurate than theirs, but my brain/eyes saw it as in and so by rule I have to call it in which means giving the point to our opponents on a call change on our side.

Players have to realize that none of us can make 100% accurate calls, but you are expected to call balls in if you are sure it is in. If I have doubt that a serve is out when my partner called it out, I won’t over-rule it as they have a better view. But if I am sure I saw it in, I am going to over-rule them because I am supposed to do that according to honor and the rules. There are some partners who call the service line tight in all cases or have a ‘cheat’ reputation and they are the ones I end up over-ruling more often. If you do it early in the match on the first serve you clearly see as in that they called out, they usually will call lines more fairly after that.

 

[Tdub]

If you're the serve receiver, and your partner is carefully making a close, accurate call at the serve baseline (not serve sidelines), and he calls it out, you as the receiver should never overrule him, as you have a poor view of the ball for making a line call, because a) unlike your partner you see little change of direction of the ball when it hits the ground, which is the best reason for making a determination where the ball landed (your partner sees much more change of direction from his down the line view), and b) from the serve receiver's perspective, the ball when it lands will tend to cover up the space between the line and the ball, which the serve receiver's partner on the other hand can see easily looking down the line.