Serve - Simplest Way to Snap???

mnttlrg

Professional
I have been redesigning my serve lately.... My old serve was two steps forward, a straight-forward toss, a big forward motion with the body, and a forward snap with the wrist into the ball. It was more effective than you might think, but it really hurt my lower back / hip, and it didn't incorporate enough shoulder turn to maximize power / energy efficiency.

My new serve starts the process with the shoulders turned back, uses a toss mostly parallel to the baseline, and a simple push-off with the legs into contact. I am getting close to the same results with much less pain, but I am having trouble getting the physical swing of the racket to be able to properly support the shot at the wrist and then snap on time. I really need to simplify my swing mechanic for this change to work.

Any thoughts / tips? Good videos? What is the easiest way to snap quickly / aggressively without having to use a big ratchety stupid swing? Any pros who model this perfectly?

Thanks!
 

mnttlrg

Professional
ps. Most of this mechanical, physics type-stuff also translates into groundstrokes, so I would love to apply this same question to forehands / backhands, in particular when on the run. Is there a simple mechanic you use to be able to quickly, effectively snap at just the right time with a simple, idiot-proof motion that doesn't drain your energy?
 

Searah

Semi-Pro
i think the tiafoe serve is a good example.

or think of your serve as a karate chop into a high five.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
1. Look carefully at a clear high speed video from the side of a high level serve to see what is being done. Look especially from the racket drop position to the Big L Position to impact. Forget after impact for now.

2. What you see only applies to your serving technique if your serve resembles the high level technique.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
i think the tiafoe serve is a good example.

or think of your serve as a karate chop into a high five.
I like this analogy.

I'd like to emphasize that you want to stay in karate chop for as long as possible.

It's the turning to high five at the last millisecond that gives you the juice.

Racquet on edge (karate chop) for as long as you can
I’ve never heard it described that way, but I like it.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I like this analogy.

I'd like to emphasize that you want to stay in karate chop for as long as possible.

It's the turning to high five at the last millisecond that gives you the juice.

Racquet on edge (karate chop) for as long as you can

This is not what is seen in high speed videos.
 

chic

Hall of Fame
Just a note for watching pro serves on YouTube.

<> Whichever keys have these symbols let you advance frame by frame
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Snap? There is no snap. Stop with the talk of snapping the wrist. This not what happens on a high-level serve... despite what Novak Djoko said 11-12 years ago (a year or 2 before he had his own serve fixed by serve experts).

There is a vigorous forearm pronation of the hand in addition to a generous shoulder rotation (ISR) of the elbow/arm. There is also a mild / moderate wrist action, possibly passive. But nothing that would constitute a forward snap of the wrist.

This has been covered dozens upon dozens of times in this forum. Here is the latest:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...erve-than-ground-stroke.668308/#post-14271959
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
1. Look carefully at a clear high speed video from the side of a high level serve to see what is being done. Look especially from the racket drop position to the Big L Position to impact. Forget after impact for now.

2. What you see only applies to your serving technique if your serve resembles the high level technique.
Im curious. What do u expect people to get from posting like this?

It's so cryptic, so mental picture only to you.

If u post and noone understands, aren't u wasting your time?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.

"It's the turning to high five at the last millisecond that gives you the juice."

"at the last millisecond" is not correct. The purpose of high speed video is to observe positions of objects vs milliseconds. Find a serve video that shows you from the frame of your picture to the frame of impact (about 25 milliseconds later).

There are players that literally believe what you said and in the late 80s I was one of them.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Im curious. What do u expect people to get from posting like this?

It's so cryptic, so mental picture only to you.

If u post and noone understands, aren't u wasting your time?

I have posted many times with videos, pictures, explanations and analysis. Forum search: internal shoulder rotation Chas Tennis

It seems to me that there are two approaches on the forum for information on our beliefs about tennis strokes. One approach is based primarily on high speed video observations. The other approach uses much less high speed video observations..... I have gotten a bit worn from always explaining and showing videos, time consuming too, so sometimes I try a different approach in some threads. The hidden agenda is that I am trying to get through to some of the posters that they should look much more seriously at high speed videos. I especially use that when the OPs show no indication that they are considering videos and use word descriptions of their strokes, as in this OP.

If the OP looked at videos, I believe that he would see many very interesting things and his understanding would improve. False beliefs often are gone in one video view...........
 
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tennisbike

Professional
I like that you are thinking about connecting serve to groundstroke. They are all similar in that a racket is swung to hit a ball. I have been looking at the commonality between tennis motion, with golf swing, machete, scythe, flail, and nunchucks, or even whips.

My current hypothesis is that (1) first there is a motion, or a component of it, toward the target, in this case contact point. (2) Then there is a lateral force causing the "stick" to square up, leading to to the target. In some of the video I observe, these are blended together not completely discrete segments.

For serve, simply put, you need to displace your hand upward. Essentially, the greater the hand displaces, meaning the greater distance you get to accelerate the racket. That is part 1.

Part 2, you are changing the direction. Picture an ellipse, as it goes toward the vertex, it is turning sharper, with smaller radius. (Thus one need to grip the racket to keep it from slipping away) greater friction, i.e. centripetal force, greater the velocity.

The idea is pretty simple. Accelerate to as high an velocity first then turn tighter.

All the tips and lessons, kinetic chain, pull the butt cap, modern forehand, leg drive, coil, wrist snap.... all of those basically would help you do those two things, plus consistency and accuracy, which is outside this discussion here.
 

tennisbike

Professional
I try a different approach in some threads...

... looked at videos, I believe that he would see many very interesting things and his understanding would improve.

A different approach then.. do you observe a large vertical displacement relate to high serve speed? What do you think about my hypothesis? Just to rattle the cage a bit.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
A different approach then.. do you observe a large vertical displacement relate to high serve speed? What do you think about my hypothesis? Just to rattle the cage a bit.

I find all word descriptions of tennis strokes to be ambiguous to some degree. I've stopped trying to figure out what is meant. Words plus high speed video frames are a minimum. I guess that illustrations plus words took over many years ago for most communication.

The usual approach for a subject is to start by finding the highest level of existing knowledge. For the tennis serve there was a break through in 1995 and many publications over the next years. Things took form using biomechanics.

I subscribe to the Bruce Elliott and Marshall biomechanical description of the tennis serve. They measured the speeds of joints of the body vs time. That was published in research papers and books starting around 2000. It seems to be the most referenced research on the tennis serve. It uses some useful sub-motions of the serve such as leg thrust, shoulder-over-shoulder, trunk twist, somersault. I discussed these in many posts with illustrations a few years ago. My recent thread on Thoracic Extension is part of the biomechanics of stretching muscles for the tennis serve.

Read the references for research on the serve.
 
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Knox

Semi-Pro
"It's the turning to high five at the last millisecond that gives you the juice."

"at the last millisecond" is not correct. The purpose of high speed video is to observe positions of objects vs milliseconds. Find a serve video that shows you from the frame of your picture to the frame of impact (about 25 milliseconds later).

There are players that literally believe what you said and in the late 80s I was one of them.

I knew some middlesmart would come in and get hung up on "the last millisecond"

It's a figure of speech. Not literally the last millisecond.

You're right, its probably about 25milliseconds... but its useless to know that. Nobody can move fast enough and perceive real time in high enough resolution to actually differentiate between "last millisecond" and "25 milliseconds" when executing a serve.

"Last millisecond" gets the intended effect across, which is that you want to stay on edge as long as possible.
 

tennisbike

Professional
I find all word descriptions of tennis strokes to be ambiguous to some degree. I've stopped trying to figure out what is meant. Words plus high speed video frames are a minimum. I guess that illustrations plus words took over many years ago for most communication.

I subscribe to the Bruce Elliott and Marshall biomechanical description of the tennis serve.
Thanks for pointing out the very comprehensive reference.

I am not surprised by lack of interest or response to my proposal. In this system of player action, racket motion to ball motion, Often the biomachanical aspect focus on what a player do. I am trying to examine the PRODUCT or result of that which is what hand/racket do to impact the ball. And my hypothesis is that the ideal path is include a segment about 1/4 of an ellipse, like from co-vertex toward or past vertex. If you tip the below graph 90 degree, say serving to the right, my part 1, at around 9 o'clock, is to generate as high hand/racket speed to reach co-vertex position. Part 2 is approaching vertex position, at 12 o'clock, what in this thread called snap where the radius is tightened and the speed increases. After the vertex the path became more linear with a reduction of speed.

My observation of Serena's serve analysis, somewhere on the Youtube is that the contact point is past vertex point perhaps for .. practical reason such as accuracy/consistency.

300px-Ellipse-def0.svg.png

A possible way to look at a more biomechanical way, is that near the so called snap or vertex point is where the shoulder rotation happens when the virtual pivot point is actually about elbow. So imagine the radius reduction from the length from shoulder joint to hand to elbow joint to hand. If you do not believe in elliptical motion, which is happening in all the stars and planets, think about figurer skater spinning faster tugging in.

For me it is very illuminating and simplified the whole idea about producing a stroke. Just go fast, like pulling the butt cap, then turn. Whatever you do, ground reaction force, coil, kinetic chain help you get the speed. When you turn with good timing, then you have it. The idea is easy, still takes work to get it to work.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The serve is 3D and an ellipse is 2D.

The camera can show the 3D aspect of the racket path and it works best if the angle is selected.
6E7FE645E567434F9E29811E54D3E639.jpg


If you look at this from the side the hand path might be mostly in one plane, but the racket path is not in one plane. Also between the two red arrows is the approximate part of the serve where ISR acceletrates the racket head. I cannot remember all these curves from observing them by standing in the middle and looking up with an angle that keeps changing.

Camera views tend to show 2 components of position pretty well, say up-down and side-to-side, but they tend to reduce the third component toward-away from the camera. It might look like part of an an ellipse from the side view but that is because the camera flattens things out.

If you look at the serve from the side, it looks much more 2D. Notice that the racket appears to get shorter at position #3, that's because it's in 3D space and the racket is tilted away from the camera more at position #3. You can try that holding a racket in front of you or someone can pose in serve positions.
78559A0511F340ECB80ED626CDE864D1.jpg

Gussie Moran.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
I have posted many times with videos, pictures, explanations and analysis. Forum search: internal shoulder rotation Chas Tennis

Like you, I find that words, even alot of time videos, are nearly worthless. Sports are action. Words and video viewing alone simply cannot relate and be able to convey.

But one thing that can get readers to understand very well : analogies or actions that they are already familiar with. No one can understand the tennis serve first coming into it, but if they had played volleyball, you could tell them the serve is like the volleyball smash.
 

Sir Weed

Hall of Fame
Like you, I find that words, even alot of time videos, are nearly worthless. Sports are action. Words and video viewing alone simply cannot relate and be able to convey.

But one thing that can get readers to understand very well : analogies or actions that they are already familiar with. No one can understand the tennis serve first coming into it, but if they had played volleyball, you could tell them the serve is like the volleyball smash.
Unfortunately he's not able to invent progressions or even analogies. Guess he'd need other people to provide this interface for him. Then again there are many kids tennis books that provoke the stuff chas is talking about in theory.
 

Sir Weed

Hall of Fame
Like you, I find that words, even alot of time videos, are nearly worthless. Sports are action. Words and video viewing alone simply cannot relate and be able to convey.

But one thing that can get readers to understand very well : analogies or actions that they are already familiar with. No one can understand the tennis serve first coming into it, but if they had played volleyball, you could tell them the serve is like the volleyball smash.
And I'd like to apologize for my attacking you sometime last week. There's no excuse for what I did so feel free to not accept my apology.
 

tennisbike

Professional
Appreciate your thoughtful response, as usual.
The serve is 3D and an ellipse is 2D.
Quite true. But we shall model the 2D aspect. In deed, side view is best for the 2D model.

If you look at the serve from the side, it looks much more 2D. Notice that the racket appears to get shorter at position #3, that's because it's a 3D space and the racket is tilted away from the camera more at position #3. You can try that holding a racket in front of you or someone can pose in serve positions.
78559A0511F340ECB80ED626CDE864D1.jpg

Gussie Moran.
Great find. Assuming the each strobe/image happens at a fixed interval, the wide gap between racket images between 2 to 6 would indicate great displacement in each time interval, meaning high racket head speed.

The Serena Williams serve analysis here is good video clip for analysis. I was pointing out the path of the hand or the handle. Do you spot a greater change in away from straight line path? From 57-79, 79-92, 92-104 mph.. that is +22, +13, +12 mph. I wonder what is happening, what motion is happening during those time interval.

My assertion remains:
  1. To accelerate to greater speed, a longer run way is preferred. Start lower, and reach higher. A higher speed can be achieved even at the same acceleration rate.
  2. To increase rate of acceleration by optimizing biomechanics, leg drive, coil/recoil, kinetic chain...
  3. Further increase racket speed by ISR, by tightening the arc, or increasing the angular velocity of the racket.

Outside of this conversation, but how come the lowest racket head speed is 32 mph? Modeling purely from 2-D perspective there ought to be a zero somewhere, should not be? And interestingly, the hand speed dipped right at about contact. Anyway, not asking for answers but I wonder.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Appreciate your thoughtful response, as usual.

Quite true. But we shall model the 2D aspect. In deed, side view is best for the 2D model.


Great find. Assuming the each strobe/image happens at a fixed interval, the wide gap between racket images between 2 to 6 would indicate great displacement in each time interval, meaning high racket head speed.

The Serena Williams serve analysis here is good video clip for analysis. I was pointing out the path of the hand or the handle. Do you spot a greater change in away from straight line path? From 57-79, 79-92, 92-104 mph.. that is +22, +13, +12 mph. I wonder what is happening, what motion is happening during those time interval.

My assertion remains:
  1. To accelerate to greater speed, a longer run way is preferred. Start lower, and reach higher. A higher speed can be achieved even at the same acceleration rate.
  2. To increase rate of acceleration by optimizing biomechanics, leg drive, coil/recoil, kinetic chain...
  3. Further increase racket speed by ISR, by tightening the arc, or increasing the angular velocity of the racket.

Outside of this conversation, but how come the lowest racket head speed is 32 mph? Modeling purely from 2-D perspective there ought to be a zero somewhere, should not be? And interestingly, the hand speed dipped right at about contact. Anyway, not asking for answers but I wonder.

The Serena video that you are referring to - the link does not work.

For circular motion, I believe that Toly used a Tennis Warehouse program that calculated speed. I could see how it could calculate the component of the speed of the racket up-down in the frame and side-to-side in the frame but not the speed in 3D. I disagreed with Toly on that point and can't give speeds if you mean speed from some of Toly's composite tennis videos or pictures.
 
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TennisDawg

Hall of Fame
"It's the turning to high five at the last millisecond that gives you the juice."

"at the last millisecond" is not correct. The purpose of high speed video is to observe positions of objects vs milliseconds. Find a serve video that shows you from the frame of your picture to the frame of impact (about 25 milliseconds later).

There are players that literally believe what you said and in the late 80s I was one of them.
I posted a video of Gulbis serving in slo mo a year or so ago. I was mistaken on that last millisecond ball contact from edge on. I remember we had a discussion on that. It dawned on me, edge on is most important at the big L and if you have good racquet acceleration at that point the ball contact occurs naturally. The mind cannot and body cannot time that contact consciously just inches from the ball, the racquet is moving way too fast. You probably can if you have very very slow racquet speed, but then that is a very low level serve.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
@Sir Weed
Like you, I find that words, even alot of time videos, are nearly worthless. Sports are action. Words and video viewing alone simply cannot relate and be able to convey.

But one thing that can get readers to understand very well : analogies or actions that they are already familiar with. No one can understand the tennis serve first coming into it, but if they had played volleyball, you could tell them the serve is like the volleyball smash.
Vball spikes & tennis overhead smashes are similar up to a point. The tennis serve somewhat less so. Tennis overheads and badminton smashes are very closely related. But, again, tennis serves are a little bit different than these.

I actually screwed up my left shoulder royally nearly 30 years ago because I was trying to hit my volleyball spike in the same manner that I was hitting my tennis and badminton overhead smashes. I had to switch to playing volleyball right-handed so that I could still use my left arm and shoulder for tennis and badminton.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
I have been redesigning my serve lately.... My old serve was two steps forward, a straight-forward toss, a big forward motion with the body, and a forward snap with the wrist into the ball. It was more effective than you might think, but it really hurt my lower back / hip, and it didn't incorporate enough shoulder turn to maximize power / energy efficiency.

My new serve starts the process with the shoulders turned back, uses a toss mostly parallel to the baseline, and a simple push-off with the legs into contact. I am getting close to the same results with much less pain, but I am having trouble getting the physical swing of the racket to be able to properly support the shot at the wrist and then snap on time. I really need to simplify my swing mechanic for this change to work.

Any thoughts / tips? Good videos? What is the easiest way to snap quickly / aggressively without having to use a big ratchety stupid swing? Any pros who model this perfectly?

Thanks!

As you can see from the discussion that ensued in response to your post, if you want any truly meaningful advice that accurately relates to your own serve, a short video is probably going to be the best way to achieve that.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
And I'd like to apologize for my attacking you sometime last week. There's no excuse for what I did so feel free to not accept my apology.
What? You attacked me? What did i do to u? Honestly everything felt very normal and TT business as usual.

Ok if you were being evil to me unnecessarily, i will accept accept your apology. ;)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@Sir Weed

Vball spikes & tennis overhead smashes are similar up to a point. The tennis serve somewhat less so. Tennis overheads and badminton smashes are very closely related. But, again, tennis serves are a little bit different than these.

I actually screwed up my left shoulder royally nearly 30 years ago because I was trying to hit my volleyball spike in the same manner that I was hitting my tennis and badminton overhead smashes. I had to switch to playing volleyball right-handed so that I could still use my left arm and shoulder for tennis and badminton.
There's this new ,athletic guy in our group, starting out tennis. His overall game is typical for a newcomer but his serve is exceptional, better than mine and those playing over 10 yrs.

I asked him for his progression, thinking, he said he had no idea. He's only doing the volleyball smashing which he's a veteran in.

I played badminton for some time. Another friend was much much better, like 5.0 tennis equivalent. He showed me the smash power and accuracy primarily come from the wrist. It's feet stomping to pull your wt down and wrist snapping to get that whippy fast racket head speed.

Yrs later that badminton friend joined me for a couple tennis outings. He hurt his wrist from applying his sport technique to the strokes. Weird.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
There's this new ,athletic guy in our group, starting out tennis. His overall game is typical for a newcomer but his serve is exceptional, better than mine and those playing over 10 yrs.

I asked him for his progression, thinking, he said he had no idea. He's only doing the volleyball smashing which he's a veteran in.

I played badminton for some time. Another friend was much much better, like 5.0 tennis equivalent. He showed me the smash power and accuracy primarily come from the wrist. It's feet stomping to pull your wt down and wrist snapping to get that whippy fast racket head speed.

Yrs later that badminton friend joined me for a couple tennis outings. He hurt his wrist from applying his sport technique to the strokes. Weird.
I've played badminton since the late 1970s. Played a lot of competive badminton in the 1980s (a bit in the 1990s). Competition here ranges from E (novice) level up to A (open & high advanced). I started from a low intermediate level (D) and reached a low advanced level (B) in the 1980s.

I've had the opportunity to play with some of the best players in the US. (One of my tennis partners ~30 yrs ago was an A badm player who regularly practiced with the national badm team). I know several players who played in the Olympics for the US badminton team. Got the opportunity to play with 1 of these guys (Chris Jogis), in a tournament, a few years before he competed in the '92 Olympics.


Anyway, let me tell you that the role of the wrist in badminton is still greatly exaggerated by many players & coaches. I am well acquainted with stroke biomechanics for badminton. As early as the mid-1960s, a top US player, Dr James Poole, revealed in his college thesis that the role of the wrist in badminton is greatly exaggerated as a power source. He was talking about forearm pronation back then. Some 2 decades before I heard any tennis coaches talking about forearm pronation.

To this day, badminton players & coaches still exaggerate the role of wrist for power production for badminton strokes. You still hear this in tennis as well, to a lesser extent
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Appreciate your thoughtful response, as usual.

Quite true. But we shall model the 2D aspect. In deed, side view is best for the 2D model.


Great find. Assuming the each strobe/image happens at a fixed interval, the wide gap between racket images between 2 to 6 would indicate great displacement in each time interval, meaning high racket head speed.

The Serena Williams serve analysis here is good video clip for analysis. I was pointing out the path of the hand or the handle. Do you spot a greater change in away from straight line path? From 57-79, 79-92, 92-104 mph.. that is +22, +13, +12 mph. I wonder what is happening, what motion is happening during those time interval.

My assertion remains:
  1. To accelerate to greater speed, a longer run way is preferred. Start lower, and reach higher. A higher speed can be achieved even at the same acceleration rate.
  2. To increase rate of acceleration by optimizing biomechanics, leg drive, coil/recoil, kinetic chain...
  3. Further increase racket speed by ISR, by tightening the arc, or increasing the angular velocity of the racket.

Outside of this conversation, but how come the lowest racket head speed is 32 mph? Modeling purely from 2-D perspective there ought to be a zero somewhere, should not be? And interestingly, the hand speed dipped right at about contact. Anyway, not asking for answers but I wonder.


To post a video so that the video thumbnail appears as a picture, right click on the video and select "Copy video URL". Pasting that in the post will "embed" the video in the post.

It looks as if that Serena camera angle is from the side, like the strobe photo that I posted.

I don't attempt to get velocities from 2D frames because any component of velocity toward or away from the camera is always shrunken. For example, if you had a ball on the end of a string and rotated it around your head, the ball at one point would be traveling directly toward the camera and at another point directly away from the camera, as it travels around the circle. At those two locations, to the camera, the ball would appear to slow down, stop and go in the opposite direction. If the ball were moving at 80 MPH and coming directly at the camera, what would a video speed measurement show? 0 MPH. On the other hand, when the ball on the circle is closest to the camera, the speed is most accurately measured.

On the other hand, if the camera were directly above and you swing a ball in a circle, it would never be going toward or away from the camera and the measurement could be accurate if calibrated.

The "32 mph" measurement is on the second frame up and no speed label is entered on the bottom position. That bottom position might be the lowest point of the racket drop when the tip appears to stop and reverse. But the tip of the racket does not actually stop at its lowest point, it just comes directly at the camera. The racket tip does not stop but it does reach the lowest point.

You can always observe the 3 dimensions by using two cameras viewing at right angles. One camera gets up-down and forward-back and the other camera gets up-down and side-to-side.

To demo, just look at the tip of your finger and move it directly toward or away from your eye and in various 3D directions.

For maybe 40 years, I simplified the serve and thought of it as more of a 2D path, swings, loops, circles and ellipses, etc - that thinking is why ISR was missed by the tennis research community for so many decades! They didn't look at their videos.

Modelling the serve as a catapult has the same problem, the arms of the catapult swing in 2D but they never also rotate as ISR does. A serve motion is not like a catapult.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Modelling the serve as a catapult has the same problem, catapults move in 2D and the arms of the catapult swings in 2D but it never also rotates as ISR does. A serve motion is not like a catapult.

I'm going to take issue with this last paragraph. I agree that a catapult does not fully model a tennis serve. But it is useful for modelling one important aspect (or more) of the serve. There are other aspects of the serve to investigate or to focus on than just ISR

An inverted double pendulum can provide some insight into the serve even though it does not model all aspects of the serve. A double catapult or trebuchet can also provide some insight.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I'm going to take issue with this last paragraph. I agree that a catapult does not fully model a tennis serve. But it is useful for modelling one important aspect (or more) of the serve. There are other aspects of the serve to investigate or to focus on than just ISR

An inverted double pendulum can provide some insight into the serve even though it does not model all aspects of the serve. A double catapult or trebuchet can also provide some insight.

When I have seen the catapult used to make the serve easier to understand, I have never seen ISR included or even mentioned. Have you seen a catapult treatment that includes ISR?

The catapult was being used as a model for the serve well before 1995, when ISR was finally published in tennis. That is, the catapult model was being used ignoring the most significant joint motion for racket head speed at impact. As used, the catapult model hides ISR.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
When I have seen the catapult used to make the serve easier to understand, I have never seen ISR included or even mentioned. Have you seen a catapult treatment that includes ISR?

The catapult was being used as a model for the serve well before 1995, when ISR was finally published in tennis. That is, the catapult model was being used ignoring the most significant joint motion for racket head speed at impact. As used, the catapult model hides ISR.
The catapult anology does not ignore ISR. It simply does not attempt to model that aspect of the serve.

Forearm pronation has been known for quite a while. (I learned about it more than 35 years ago). But I don't believe that the catapult analogy dismisses or overlooks pronation either. It is, simply, not the intent of the catapult analogy to exhaustively model all aspects of the serve

Does the catapult (or trebuchet) analogy attempt to model ground reaction force, foot drive, leg drive, hip rotation, torso uncoil, pectoral stretch & release, wrist articulations or all other aspects of the tennis serve?

There is more than just ISR missing from the catapult analogy. But this does not mean it does not provide some useful insight for serving
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
@user92626

As mentioned previously, the badminton smash & the tennis overhead (smash) include very similar (or nearly identical) mechanics. The tennis serve is a bit different from either of these.

Some 35 yrs ago, a first-rate college tennis coach saw my badminton smash. (I was actually teaching him some of the advanced aspects of badminton). After seeing my badminton smash, he indicated that it was even better, more relaxed, than my tennis overhead. He indicated that I should be hitting my tennis overhead the same way I was hitting my badminton smash. That advice like a long way to improving my tennis overhead.

When I have taught tennis to high level badminton players, they easily & quickly master the tennis overhead. And then tennis volleys followed by the serve. The last thing they master is tennis groundstrokes since badminton has nothing like the tennis groundstroke. Hitting topspin is something very foreign to badminton players.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I posted a video of Gulbis serving in slo mo a year or so ago. I was mistaken on that last millisecond ball contact from edge on. I remember we had a discussion on that. It dawned on me, edge on is most important at the big L and if you have good racquet acceleration at that point the ball contact occurs naturally. The mind cannot and body cannot time that contact consciously just inches from the ball, the racquet is moving way too fast. You probably can if you have very very slow racquet speed, but then that is a very low level serve.

I have just realized that there are two uses of certain wording and two different ideas floating around. And they are based on the use of two undefined terms.
1) "edge on"
2) "on edge"

"edge on" I use the term "edge on" or "edge on to the ball" at the Big L Position to mean that the edge of the racket is aligned so that it points to the ball. I don't use the term "edge on" for other positions of the service motion. If the racket is "edge on to the ball at the Big L" then that serve still might be a high level serve - it's a very useful checkpoint. But if the racket face faces the sky at the Big L, the serve is not a high level technique and it is likely to be a Waiter's Tray. I did not invent this racket orientation checkpoint but found it referred to as a checkpoint, see Hi Tech Tennis.

"on edge" I just noticed someone used "on edge" not in reference to the ball but to mean that the racket head has one edge down and one edge up and stayed that way through some part of the service motion. They also did not specify one position but "on edge" could apply to other locations of the service motion, such as coming out of racket drop. ? That seems like a legitimate use of "on edge". I'm not aware of what it means if the racket is "on edge" at various locations along its path. Or of the variety that is in use by the ATP servers. Is there a reference for that information such as the Hi Tech information on the checkpoint at the Big L?

In general, other people are using racket orientations at various points that they find useful. They use descriptions such as 'the racket opens up early'. Unless they specify the location, I don't know what part of the service motion is being discussed. I'm never sure what the writer means by 'opens up'. I never know if it is good or bad if the racket 'opens up' at some point of the service motion. Except if the racket faces the sky at the Big L Position, it's not a high level serve.

I can only remember a handful of checkpoints for the serve. Any question on what is being done, just view the videos............

This illustrates that the racket head motion from "edge on to the ball at the Big L Position" to impact rotates to face the ball in a smooth fashion. And that there is no special motion during the "last millisecond" or last few inches before impact. Always refer to pictures like these or high speed videos to check your ideas. The racket is about "edge on" to the ball at Big L and "on edge" moving from Big L to impact.
D6A9803246FB4B6C94EEEE4B78ADF2E6.jpg
 
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TennisDawg

Hall of Fame
I have just realized that there are two uses of certain wording and two different ideas floating around. And they are based on the use of two undefined terms.
1) "edge on"
2) "on edge"

"edge on" I use the term "edge on" or "edge on to the ball" at the Big L Position to mean that the edge of the racket is aligned so that it points to the ball. I don't use the term "edge on" for other positions of the service motion. If the racket is "edge on to the ball at the Big L" then that serve still might be a high level serve - it's a very useful checkpoint. But if the racket face faces the sky at the Big L, the serve is not a high level technique and it is likely to be a Waiter's Tray. I did not invent this racket orientation checkpoint but found it referred to as a checkpoint, see Hi Tech Tennis.

"on edge" I just noticed someone used "on edge" not in reference to the ball but to mean that the racket head has one edge down and one edge up and stayed that way through some part of the service motion. They also did not specify one position but "on edge" could apply to other locations of the service motion, such as coming out of racket drop. ? That seems like a legitimate use of "on edge". I'm not aware of what it means if the racket is "on edge" at various locations along its path. Or of the variety that is in use by the ATP servers. Is there a reference for that information such as the Hi Tech information on the checkpoint at the Big L?

In general, other people are using racket orientations at various points that they find useful. They use descriptions such as 'the racket opens up early'. Unless they specify the location, I don't know what part of the service motion is being discussed. I'm never sure what the writer means by 'opens up'. I never know if it is good or bad if the racket 'opens up' at some point of the service motion. Except if the racket faces the sky at the Big L Position, it's not a high level serve.

I can only remember a handful of checkpoints for the serve. Any question on what is being done, just view the videos............

This illustrates that the racket head motion from "edge on to the ball at the Big L Position" to impact rotates to face the ball in a smooth fashion. And that there is no special motion during the "last millisecond" or last few inches before impact. Always refer to pictures like these or high speed videos to check your ideas. The racket is about "edge on" to the ball at Big L and "on edge" moving from Big L to impact.
D6A9803246FB4B6C94EEEE4B78ADF2E6.jpg
What was most important to me about the discussion on the Gulbis serve was disproving the myth that hi level servers time the moment of ball contact as they began pronation. Big L is a checkpoint with the edge of the racquet head leading, not pointing to the side (waiter tray). Once that checkpoint is performed then it’s a matter of racquet head speed into pronation and ball contact. It allows me to free up and have a loose shoulder, arm, hand into pronation, contact. I read an tennis instruction book around 10 years ago that actually taught that myth about timing the contact in inches just before beginning pronation. I tried doing that and it is not only frustrating but it could lead to wrist injury. It has to feel natural.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
To this day, badminton players & coaches still exaggerate the role of wrist for power production for badminton strokes. You still hear this in tennis as well, to a lesser extent
At the risk of sounding like tooting my own horn, after a year or so since I first began playing I ran into some nasty wrist injury / pain. That and cramping. It was made worse by my personality -- I never said no to my group about playing so I played with the pain until I literally couldn't play anymore!!! After that I decided to educate myself about the wrist and cramping. Once I understood their roles and natures I haven't had any problem since.

Basically, we need wrist as a flexible joint to help us maneuver. That's our gift for having a wrist. Naturally more flexible is better but the cost of that is it gets weaker as it extends more.

So, for each of us there are two things that we must do: 1, understand our own strokes, our own tendency (you won't ever be like Nadal or the stiffest, most talented old guy at the court. Copy neither), everyone is different. Don't fight our tendency. Don't be artificial with the wrist or any part. 2. Strengthen the wrist and use it but never go beyond its capacity.
 

tennisbike

Professional
In general, other people are using racket orientations at various points that they find useful. They use descriptions such as 'the racket opens up early'. Unless they specify the location, I don't know what part of the service motion is being discussed. I'm never sure what the writer means by 'opens up'. I never know if it is good or bad if the racket 'opens up' at some point of the service motion. Except if the racket faces the sky at the Big L Position, it's not a high level serve.
I agree that when describing motion of an object, one of the most important variable is time. That is why timing is so important yet it is kind of a myst, more of an art than science.

This thread though is about ISR and snap. I want to explore the motion of the hand and racket. Need to rig up my camera somehow.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Any thoughts / tips? Good videos?
Start with a video of yourself. Any smartphone will do the trick. It's OK if you don't want to post it here - although that will reduce knowledgeable posters to mere guesswork - but you should definitely be videoing your own serve and comparing the relevant checkpoints against a high level serve to see where you can improve. In my experience, if your serve is of a reasonable standard, it's best to find a pro that most resembles your technique/timing and start there. For example, if you have a pinpoint serve with a lagged takeback, then comparing against Federer will still be useful but it might be better to use Serena Williams, and if you have a "down together up together" motion then maybe Wawrinka is a better choice. These are hypotheticals but you get the point.

The reason I say all this is because of what you wrote here:
[..] but I am having trouble getting the physical swing of the racket to be able to properly support the shot at the wrist and then snap on time
So it's almost guaranteed this is the result of something you're doing (or not doing) well before contact, and since there are so many variables along that path the only way to really know where it breaks down is to observe and analyse. There are many drills you could try that are designed to address various different serve problems , but you will either have to identify those yourself or post that video and let others contribute.

That's my 2¢.
 
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fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
I have been redesigning my serve lately.... My old serve was two steps forward, a straight-forward toss, a big forward motion with the body, and a forward snap with the wrist into the ball. It was more effective than you might think, but it really hurt my lower back / hip, and it didn't incorporate enough shoulder turn to maximize power / energy efficiency.

My new serve starts the process with the shoulders turned back, uses a toss mostly parallel to the baseline, and a simple push-off with the legs into contact. I am getting close to the same results with much less pain, but I am having trouble getting the physical swing of the racket to be able to properly support the shot at the wrist and then snap on time. I really need to simplify my swing mechanic for this change to work.

Any thoughts / tips? Good videos? What is the easiest way to snap quickly / aggressively without having to use a big ratchety stupid swing? Any pros who model this perfectly?

Thanks!

I've become a little leery of the general idea of "wrist snap" when thinking of swinging a tennis racquet. For some this might be just an issue of semantics, but others may focus on the snapping action of the wrist too much and put themselves on the road to injury, etc. Trying to amplify wrist snap by actively using the forearm muscles is usually a bad idea... but I think that an effective stroke or serve can include a full release of the racquet by incorporating an especially loose and passive wrist where it acts as only a fluid linkage or hinge.

So to enable that fluid release through the wrist (I really don't like the term wrist snap, but that's what I'm getting at), I think it's important to get ahead of the ball with an earlier setup. The wrist can be loose and passive if the energy for the stroke or serve has been generated further back down the kinetic chain. Things tend to tighten up when the racquet acceleration happens later - that tightening typically includes the wrist.

In terms of your new serve, I'd say practice some of the new motions without hitting a ball. As you do a few of those motions, focus on a loose and limber forearm that allows the racquet to really release fully like you want with enough of that (okay, I'll say it) wrist snap. Once you feel like you've got it happening with the practice motions, try serving a ball or two. If your "snap" disappears, I'll bet you a nickel that your acceleration up to the ball is coming a little late relative to the progression of your windup and the timing of your toss.

Work on more completely loading up before you put your toss in the air - or to put it another way, work on tossing later in your windup. That will let you be more on the brink of an unrushed - and inherently loose & snappy - release over the top. As I see it, that wrist snap (fluid release) is less accessible when we rush to the ball.

Some of the folks I've worked with in the serving department had trouble with their swing timing because they used the initial move to start the windup that's often referred to as "hands down together, up together". This works for some, but for others it makes their windup with the racquet late relative to their toss. Then comes the stiff-armed rush to the ball.

If you haven't experimented with taking the racquet directly to the trophy pose from your set position where your entire service motion starts, I'd say noodle with that on the practice court. Try to get everything loaded up a bit more before you toss so that you're that much closer to a release when the ball arrives up there in your strike zone. This is only one idea, but I think you'll be able to figure out how to time your toss if you can generate the motion and release that you want with your practice motions.

Happy Saturday :cool:
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I knew some middlesmart would come in and get hung up on "the last millisecond"

It's a figure of speech. Not literally the last millisecond.

"Last millisecond" gets the intended effect across, which is that you want to stay on edge as long as possible.

It's very close to the last millisecond as you say and may actually be. What you are referencing is how the best servers will stay on edge as much as they can, until that moment you reference. There is a position that is literally a millisecond prior to contact where the strings have still not squared up to contact. At that last millisecond the server is no longer working to avoid squaring up, but is now releasing into the rotation (often called pronation) that will result in moving thru square and past in a mere 3-4 milliseconds. For every millisecond you are early hitting the referenced position, the pace of the serve will suffer to some greater or lesser extent. The same is true of being late to that point, although slight errors of timing on either side might still hit the box sometimes. When you hit that moment just right, then you have that perfect timing to the serve that maximizes your current ability to serve for speed, assuming the other aspects of your technique are up to par on that swing as well. That someone is unaware of this position and timing, can't see it in video or doesn't have the experience level to recognize it, has no bearing on the topic.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I'm going to take issue with this last paragraph. I agree that a catapult does not fully model a tennis serve. But it is useful for modelling one important aspect (or more) of the serve. There are other aspects of the serve to investigate or to focus on than just ISR
well said and a a trebuchet is even better I think,

although most everything other than an actual serve will miss some aspects of the serve won't it. I like the idea of thinking about a trebuchet tilted to the side about 30 degrees off of straight up, then using the high football throw to sort of fill in the blanks as an exercise. If a player can get the toss about right, then the concept of the trebuchet in combination with the high football pass activity, will really help start to get you there.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I agree that when describing motion of an object, one of the most important variable is time. That is why timing is so important yet it is kind of a myst, more of an art than science.

This thread though is about ISR and snap. I want to explore the motion of the hand and racket. Need to rig up my camera somehow.
you need to rig up your camera from behind, looking in-line with the path of the hand as it comes forward. (maybe you noticed the earlier series of pics that showed how the hand travels forward in one plane....someone also commented on it) 1st pic in post #20....
-notice I didn't say in line with the serve path...

you should be able to see how the racket isn't pointed straight up, but is tilted 15-30 degrees, tip to the left. That angle of the racket from the forearm created at the grip is the keep to understanding how to meld the idea of pronation with "the snap" thru the contact with the last instant timing that is so much like a long high correct football pass.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I have been redesigning my serve lately....

Any thoughts / tips? Good videos? What is the easiest way to snap quickly / aggressively without having to use a big ratchety stupid swing? Any pros who model this perfectly?

Thanks!
Yes, Pete Sampras.....
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Does everyone know how to post pictures into their posts?

You right click on the forum or internet picture and select "Copy image address". You should not do this with proprietary or copyrighted pictures.

Then when you are writing a reply in the reply box you click the picture icon that looks like mountains and a moon at the top of the reply box - and paste the 'image address' into that box. You can "preview" your post to check how the pictures look.

If the picture is only your computer, you first need to upload it to a photo hosting website and then "Copy image address" from the picture on that website.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
Does everyone know how to post pictures into their posts?

You right click on the forum or internet picture and select "Copy image address". You should not do this with proprietary or copyrighted pictures.

Then when you are writing a reply in the reply box you click the picture icon that looks like mountains and a moon at the top of the reply box - and paste the 'image address' into that box. You can "preview" your post to check how the pictures look.

If the picture is only your computer, you first need to upload it to a photo hosting website and then "Copy image address" from the picture on that website.

?????????

I mean... nice tutorial... but I can't help but think that you have undisclosed motives behind your sharing of said tutorial
 
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