Serve Speed Reality Check

[tennis_ocd]

Every year Binghamton, NY holds a challenger event in July. Last year's winner was Kuznetsov over Klahn. Rhyne Williams, Donald Young, etc. Some solid atp names. (Andy Murray one year.) They have a playful fast serve contest one day during tourney. Regularly won past few years by Greg Jones (top 200 type from AUS). Winning fast atp tour serve speed? 123 mph.

Virtually anyone here on ttw discussing this stuff who thinks they are facing 120+ heat or occasionally airs one out that speed is near delusional.

 

[r2473]

I have "fast" serve and play with a guy that does too. Our serves are fast enough that they always draw attention from neighboring courts. People always ask us how fast we serve. Neither of us have ever had our serve speed measured, but I do believe we serve in the triple digits.

Brad Ferreira owns a club a little north of Salt Lake. He hosts a USTA tournament every year. Often times his brother Wayne will show up. The Jensen brother have been there many times too. They have a charity contest where you could try to return these guy's serve. The guy I referenced above entered the contest the first year they did it. These days, Wayne serves slow enough so you have a chance, but the first year Wayne apparently hit full out. My buddy said Wayne's serve was so fast that you literally didn't even have time to move toward the ball before it was by you. He said the best he could do was to barely get a racquet on a serve or two. Nobody was able to get one of Wayne's serves back into play that day.

 

[ProgressoR]

The story in the second post is more interesting than the first post.

Anyway, my experience is this. I had a flat first I used to hit quite a lot, now I use more top slice and placement. But it was pretty quick, others have said its the fastest club level serves they have seen, and suggested 100mph. I played against a couple of guys who have been round the block, and i never talk about my serve or what speed because I dont really care.

One said it must be around 100mph, the other said, with due respect it could just barely be 100mph because he recalled a guy who had it measured at 100mph and he said it was a fair bit faster than mine. And that guys serve, apparently was something to behold.

Another time I was hitting at the club, and this guy was coming back from injury, a second team player and he was hitting OK. I never met him before, and the first thing he said to me (in response to the first thing I ever said to him in my life, which was "oh, were you injured?") was "yeh, I serve at 115, 120, but I am taking it easy today"

I was thinking...Hmm...well....thank you for telling me.

What the hell is it with players boasting about serves. if a guy has a 100mph serve plus and places it and wins games with it, you will know its a good serve by just observing. You will tell your mates that is some serve!

Anyway, i have kind of lost track, I dont even hit it as hard as i can anymore, I focus on spin and placement.

In the end who cares - I love to see a nice fast serve, and if you have a great serve, let me see and judge for myself, don't tell me.

 

[gmatheis]

Every year Binghamton, NY holds a challenger event in July. Last year's winner was Kuznetsov over Klahn. Rhyne Williams, Donald Young, etc. Some solid atp names. (Andy Murray one year.) They have a playful fast serve contest one day during tourney. Regularly won past few years by Greg Jones (top 200 type from AUS). Winning fast atp tour serve speed? 123 mph.

Virtually anyone here on ttw discussing this stuff who thinks they are facing 120+ heat or occasionally airs one out that speed is near delusional.

So a challenger top speed is 123 .... don't you think for a minute that maybe just maybe if those same serves were measured the same way they do at big tournaments (like masters1000 or majors) they would be more like 130+ ?

I don't understand how everyone here doesn't recognize the difference between the technology they use at those big tournaments which gets the speed almost right off the racket and rec players setting up a basic radar device that gets its reading well after the ball has left the racket and has been slowed down by air friction.

 

[WildVolley]

The OP forgets that some of us have radar guns.

Seriously, you can get a fairly good radar gun for under $200. And as I mentioned in another thread, I've clocked an athletic high school player (not a great tennis player) hit a 115 mph serve.

Pros playing around and hitting 123mph in a contest doesn't say much given I watched guys hitting 140+ just a few weeks ago at Indian Wells.

 

[tennis_ocd]

I don't understand how everyone here doesn't recognize the difference between the technology they use at those big tournaments ....

And I don't understand how everyone doesn't differentiate between the caliper of serves at those big tournaments and the local rec ladder. I struggle in my attempt to follow the techniques of pros. Perhaps I should just get their technology...

 

[Maximagq]

VERY FEW rec players can crack 120 mph. That I agree with. When you have challenger level guys barely cracking 123 mph at the fastest in a no-pressure situation, that's what most of us are questioning.

 

[WildVolley]

And I don't understand how everyone doesn't differentiate between the caliber of serves at those big tournaments and the local rec ladder. I struggle in my attempt to follow the techniques of pros. Perhaps I should just get their technology...

The disagreement between us is not over how rare big serves at the rec-level are. We both agree that they are very rare. In the other thread, a teaching pro said that he had data showing approximately half of all rec-players don't hit over 80mph.

The disagreement is that you don't think there are some guys hitting close to 120mph out on the rec courts. The problem is that there are some big athletic guys, while extremely rare, hitting big on the rec-courts. I've seen it so I know it exists.

 

[tennis_ocd]

The OP forgets that some of us have radar guns.

Seriously, you can get a fairly good radar gun for under $200. And as I mentioned in another thread, I've clocked an athletic high school player (not a great tennis player) hit a 115 mph serve.

Pros playing around and hitting 123mph in a contest doesn't say much given I watched guys hitting 140+ just a few weeks ago at Indian Wells.

120+ is the bar. I'm sure there are many 110 type guys.... And most ttw posters would be at 140+ in dry, desert air.

 

[LeeD]

While I agree VERY few rec players can hit into the 120's, quite a few players who are trying to qualify for an ATP tourney, but haven't YET, can hit well into the 120's.
Fastest serves are into the 150's, accept it. Guys like Roddick, Milos, Groth, get there, and a few other's also.
In all the world, there has to be a few non ATP players, the same size as R, M, and G, who can serve just as hard, but maybe move worse, and don't have the needed return and ground games. I'd reckon, well over 100.

 

[tennis_ocd]

VERY FEW rec players can crack 120 mph. That I agree with. When you have challenger level guys barely cracking 123 mph at the fastest in a no-pressure situation, that's what most of us are questioning.

It is what it is.
http://binghamtonchallenger.com/2012/jones-2-time-fast-serve-winner/

There are probably only a couple dozen^ or so guys *in the world* that can crack 130 in any given match.... and they're not on the challenger circuit.


^not counting ttw players

 

[tennis_ocd]

In all the world, there has to be a few non ATP players, the same size as R, M, and G, who can serve just as hard, but maybe move worse, and don't have the needed return and ground games. I'd reckon, well over 100.

Last week you were arguing that Milos, Roddick and Anderson only had 4.5/5.0 groundstrokes and were able to break opponents just due to pressure.

Now I'm to believe there exists well over 100 guys with 150 firsts and <4.0 groundies?????

 

[Egoista]

not only speed but placement and angles matter folks

 

[LeeD]

TennisOCD, you have to LOOK at Milos's groundies that vid, not his name, not his reputation, not the sound. LOOK!
Yes, Milo's, THAT VIDEO, was hitting 5.5 level groundies, at best. He missed every other shot, shanked some more, and obviously very discouraged and moping around. Even HE would say he hit like a bad college player.
Yes, there should easily be over 100 guys IN THE WORLD, who can serve into the 140's. They might not be tennis players, but they have the tools.
Just about EVERY baseball pitcher can serve into the highest 140's, if they have a 95 mph fastball. That would account for well over 500 guys right there! Lots of baseball pitcher's are taller than 6'4", and some short guys, MarinoRivera, can exceed 95.

 

[tennis_ocd]

not only speed but placement and angles matter folks

absolutely. My interest in this topic is due to giving up on speed (after being clocked.) Placement, consistency, spin and preparing for return are all significantly more important. If I was convinced that 50yo rec players could pop out 100+ serves I'd jump back in the quest. I don't have a bad rec serve.

 

[arche3]

rec guys are not serving 100 mph all the time. Not happening. Big serves that we all face that we think are big I would say for the most part are under 100 mph. 100 mph is fast when trying to return them. On all of ttw the only guys Ive seen serving big are magician of precision, tennis balla, and Drakulie (I think it was drakulie).

 

[arche3]

TennisOCD, you have to LOOK at Milos's groundies that vid, not his name, not his reputation, not the sound. LOOK!
Yes, Milo's, THAT VIDEO, was hitting 5.5 level groundies, at best. He missed every other shot, shanked some more, and obviously very discouraged and moping around. Even HE would say he hit like a bad college player.
Yes, there should easily be over 100 guys IN THE WORLD, who can serve into the 140's. They might not be tennis players, but they have the tools.
Just about EVERY baseball pitcher can serve into the highest 140's, if they have a 95 mph fastball. That would account for well over 500 guys right there! Lots of baseball pitcher's are taller than 6'4", and some short guys, MarinoRivera, can exceed 95.

Milos was practicing. So he missed more trying new things most likely. He is not a 5.5 ground stroke player.

 

[LeeD]

So, just because YOU gave up on the first flat serve, you think NOBODY else can hit it, and should also give up on it?
YOU do what's best for you.
I can hit my occasional 100's all I want, knowing I have a solid lefty top/slice, top, or twist to use as my second serve.
I can hit my first flat slower, like 85-90, for close to a 50% average.
And adding first serve top/slices, slices, and occasional twists, I can ace some 4.0 level players using only a 90 mph first serve.
SET them up for their fall. Don't expect your very first, and each and every fast serve after that to give you a winner.

 

[LeeD]

We know Milos is a top 11 ATP player.
We have to judge only this vid provided, and he shanked, mishit, or totally missed half his groundies.
If you think that is "7.0 level" groundie, you're mistaken.
Milos doesn't have "7.0" groundies except once in a blue moon. He needs his serve to win matches.

 

[arche3]

We know Milos is a top 11 ATP player.
We have to judge only this vid provided, and he shanked, mishit, or totally missed half his groundies.
If you think that is "7.0 level" groundie, you're mistaken.
Milos doesn't have "7.0" groundies except once in a blue moon. He needs his serve to win matches.

Milos has incredible ground strokes. It is just that the other top 20 guys have much better defense. He uses his serve as an equaliserto the others defense. But he still has PRO level ground game. Have you ever seen him play in person up close? I have. Its is glorious just like all the other top pros.

 

[LeeD]

But that's supposition knowing Milo's game! I said, he is a top 11 ATP pro.
But the VIDEO is what should be judged!
Let's say, I have a bad day and missed half my groundies in practice. Everyone should judge me "3.5 at best". I missed half my groundies! We judge the vid, not the name of the player. If we used your judgement criteria, the name of the player, why bother to show any vids? We KNOW he's a ATP top 11.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Just about EVERY baseball pitcher can serve into the highest 140's, if they have a 95 mph fastball.

You just don't stop. rotfl. Highest 140s. Priceless.

 

[LeeD]

You're a fool if you think only the chosen top 5 ATP servers can hit into the 140's.
NONE of them can throw a javelin as far as a javelin thrower.
NONE of them can throw a baseball as hard as a pro pitcher.
NONE of them can throw a football as far as a QB, who doesn't throw very far because he never worked on the technique to throw far! He worked on technique to throw low and accurately!

 

[President]

rec guys are not serving 100 mph all the time. Not happening. Big serves that we all face that we think are big I would say for the most part are under 100 mph. 100 mph is fast when trying to return them. On all of ttw the only guys Ive seen serving big are magician of precision, tennis balla, and Drakulie (I think it was drakulie).

LeeD serves big too.

 

[Maximagq]

Pretty sure bob and topspin can crack the serve, maybe not every time but they can bring some heat

 

[LeeD]

Arche3 said, no rec player serves over 100 all the time.
He is totally correct.
He didn't say, no rec player can serve over 100.
For those of you who lurk here, and don't play tennis....... a server is not out to serve his fastest each and every first serve attempt. He mixes in top/slices, tops, and sometimes twists, which askew the average to really really low speeds.
Also, if you only count the player's attempt at his fastest first serves, and his topspeed is say.....105, he will mishit a bunch around high 90's, and some low '90's, because nobody can hit around his fastest speeds each and every serve.

 

[arche3]

Pretty sure bob and topspin can crack the serve, maybe not every time but they can bring some heat

Yeah they serve big but it doesnt look like the way balla and magician does it. These guys look like they barely swing and the ball is faster than topspin and bob. But balla and magician are pros so I guess there is that.... lol.
Ok. For rec guys topspin, bob, drakulie and a few other ttw guys serve big. The rest of us suck balls. That included leeD.

 

[PeterFig]

Serve speed is not everything.

I've had the fortune to hit with a friend of mine who's ATP ranked currently. His biggest weapon is his serve and I'm pretty confident saying he serves in the 130's . I've asked him to hit practice serves against me so I could see what I could do with them (not much it turns out). The thing is if he hit a 'big' flat serve around 130-ish but it was within my reach I do get lucky sometimes and block it back. However most of his serves were in the 110's to 120's with amazing action on them where i was no-where close to getting my racket on it. That to me is big serving. The action he (and all top pros) is able to put on the ball, and the 'heaviness' of it is so far above any of the other guys I play with who are around 4.5-5.0 level - even those with 'huge' (100mph+) serves - that really it's not even worth talking about.

 

[Maximagq]

Does balla play futures or challengers

 

[LeeD]

I think TBalla did, but hasn't in 5 years.
Yes, MOP served big, as did LawMan. The latter was a 6'4" black physical specimen, really sinewy body, who played a few Challengers back in the early '2000's.

 

[tennisdad65]

I recollect once at the LA open, they had the speed gun in a booth and the top netting was very low. Anyone taller than 6 ft who tried to jump during the serve would hit their frame on the top netting! The range for the guys was 80-100 mph.

 

[Maximagq]

I recollect once at the LA open, they had the speed gun in a booth and the top netting was very low. Anyone taller than 6 ft who tried to jump during the serve would hit their frame on the top netting! The range for the guys was 80-100 mph.

I was at the LA Open, the biggest I clocked was 107 mph three years ago.

 

[LeeD]

So it can't count!
5'10" player serving, the tip of his racket is around 10' high at contact. Contact point around 9'7".
They might as well tie a one pound weight to the head of the racket.

 

[Moz]

I've got a radar gun here at the moment. I'll try and have a crack and video it this week.

 

[GuyClinch]

LeeD serves big too.

Looked short of triple digits on video..Didn't look any better then the guys we have out in here in Sunnyvale. I think Sunnyvale >San Fran if that's the best those hippies have to offer..

 

[LeeD]

GuyClinch, are you stubborn?
I've asked you to serve out wide, to see if your bounce goes up 24-30" at the backwall.
I'll bet it doesn't come close, and you might claim 90.
TRY it, before opening up your rear end and farting.
Once you TRY it, I'll retract my remark, with an apology.

 

[psv255]

I faced a guy who could maybe hit 120, but mostly high 90s, maybe low 100 on better placed serves. was a pain when he got a flat heater in, would frame or whiff on every other one...

Most weekend warriors would top out at 75 I'd reckon, but the ones who look like they're using the right grip and have a good throwing motion in the serve might crack 95.

 

[LeeD]

GuyClinch, didn't know you were in Sunnyvale....
We should hit sometime, to see if I can serve or play at all...
I'm in SanPablo, but have to borrow my g/f's car to meet you halfway. Not an easy thing, she thinks I should be working on the house or taking her windsurfing in the afternoons.
Have you played SanPablo's, or BerkeleyTennisClubs, or Albert's Park USTA League 4.0 teams? Most of them know me, I've beaten 9 out of the 12 guys on AlbertPark's State winning team in the past, having never lost a set to any of them. I was not asked on the team because they thought I might get disqualified having played A/Open in the past.
I can supply tennis balls and beer if you want to come up to SanPabloPark in Berkeley, which is a 12 mile trip from home for me.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Yeah they serve big but it doesnt look like the way balla and magician does it. These guys look like they barely swing and the ball is faster than topspin and bob. But balla and magician are pros so I guess there is that.... lol.
Ok. For rec guys topspin, bob, drakulie and a few other ttw guys serve big. The rest of us suck balls. That included leeD.

Yeah, there's a big difference between what they and I can do with the serve. I can clock three digits, but I don't have close to their command.

 

[Ballinbob]

I think TBalla did, but hasn't in 5 years.
Yes, MOP served big, as did LawMan. The latter was a 6'4" black physical specimen, really sinewy body, who played a few Challengers back in the early '2000's.

Wonder what happened to Lawman...hope he's doing well. That guy really was a physical specimen, one of the most athletic guys I've ever seen on this forum. Almost positive he can hit 130+, but as you said the guy is a pro

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, LawLaw was pretty cool, but reading his last 10 posts, he seemed to be getting a sour edge from life, and I think he was living near Manhattan, and getting to the age when one starts to look at his life and what he should be doing.
I guess we just can't be playing tennis all our lives, and somewhere along the line, some introspection causes a shock in our system, reality starts to set in, discriminations in work place become more apparent, and we take life possibly too seriously.

 

[GuyClinch]

GuyClinch, didn't know you were in Sunnyvale....
We should hit sometime, to see if I can serve or play at all...

I moved here recently from NYC - I was NYC hack playing once or twice a week in the summer. Now I can play a lot more so trying to get better..

I have coach too - pretty good - he played college ball.. So its a much better tennis environment. I see plenty of guys who can hit 100mph.

At your age I'd imagine your a pretty nice doubles player. But its hard to imagine singles domination with your limp..

 

[LeeD]

I can dominate 3.5 singles.
Most 4.0's would split sets with me, the final going either way.
Most of my peers back in the '70's were college top singles players, either 1 or 2 in D-2 and D-3. They never gave me coaching, but I could see what they were doing.
SystemAnomoly is out of SanMateo.
Hope we can meet on court sometime.