Serve tips - advanced player

[Trevor2023]

I'm playing close to a 5.0 game and generally have good success against club players on my first serve (forcing an error or weak return and sometimes acing).

I am able to hit flat, slice and kick and also place with some consistency in practice (T or wide on both sides). Kick I almost exclusively use on my second serve, but have brought down my double faults to one or two per match and am ok with my second serve as it is now both consistent and not overly defensive (worked on that on/off past year serving out of hopper).

However, I recently played an open tournament and was thrashed a by a Division 1 college player with some ATP/ITF success. I couldn't do any real damage on my first serve at all, although most returns were punch sliced back. The player suggested I actually follow my serves in, which I think is a good suggestion, as they were makable volleys and will try that too..

But.. I think there are some other basic mechanics/hitches that could be reworked to up the pace and cause more problems at a higher level (I took a hiatus from regular tennis for almost 30 years after relatively high-level juniors and have come back to the game over the past two years)

This video is a couple of months old (have improved toss placement a bit - for slice or flat..), but am wondering what else could be improved. I'm aware my tossing arm isn't that straight and that I'm hitting the ball on the way down. I've also worked on weight transfer, coiling, tossing first (I learned years ago synchronous), contact angle.. However.. any other tips would be appreciated! thanks.

 

[onehandbh]

I'm playing close to a 5.0 game and generally have good success against club players on my first serve (forcing an error or weak return and sometimes acing).

I am able to hit flat, slice and kick and also place with some consistency in practice (T or wide on both sides). Kick I almost exclusively use on my second serve, but have brought down my double faults to one or two per match and am ok with my second serve as it is now both consistent and not overly defensive (worked on that on/off past year serving out of hopper).

However, I recently played an open tournament and was thrashed a by a Division 1 college player with some ATP success. I couldn't do any real damage on my first serve at all, although most returns were punch sliced back. The player suggested I actually follow my serves in, which I think is a good suggestion, as they were makable volleys and will try that too..

But.. I think there are some other basic mechanics/hitches that could be reworked to up the pace and cause more problems at a higher level (I took a hiatus from regular tennis for almost 30 years after high-level juniors and have come back to the game over the past two years)

This video is a couple of months old (have improved toss placement a bit - for slice or flat..), but am wondering what else could be improved. I'm aware my tossing arm isn't that straight and that I'm hitting the ball on the way down. I've also worked on weight transfer, coiling, tossing first (I learned years ago synchronous), contact angle.. However.. any other tips would be appreciated! thanks.

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[ballmachineguy]

Gotta put the feet together. Despite what others may say is effective separation, putting that left foot in front of the right is killing your power.

Also, you need to throw the ball further into the court. Your swing is limited in length when you land on the baseline.

 

[Trevor2023]

Gotta put the feet together. Despite what others may say is effective separation, putting that left foot in front of the right is killing your power.

Also, you need to throw the ball further into the court. Your swing is limited in length when you land on the baseline.

Thanks for the tips.

A coach commented on the feet a couple of months ago, but he said he thought Goran did the same thing.. but looking at Goran's old video though his left foot is behind is right whereas mine are about the same level

 

[ballmachineguy]

Thanks for the tips.

A coach commented on the feet a couple of months ago, but he said he thought Goran did the same thing.. but looking at Goran's old video though his left foot is behind is right whereas mine are about the same level

Well, I’m no serve guru, but I suppose if you don’t let it prematurely open up your hips, it is probably not a huge deal.

Edit: on second thought, you can’t help but have the hips open with the feet like that and driving the legs/jumping. IOW, gotta fix those feet.

 

[chic]

Foot thing seems like it's worth adjusting. I also think getting the left arm up straight for a more severe shoulder tilt and more intentional jab of the left arm down might add some pop.

Hard to tell from the video of a single serve from a lower angle, and you clearly have better technique than most people posting serve vids here even if it's not fully refined.

 

[Curious]

I wouldn’t worry about anything other than the toss being not into the court.
Compare your toss with the one below
Unbelievable isn’t it? A giant needing a toss that much into the court.

 

[Curious]

left arm up straight for a more severe shoulder tilt and more intentional jab of the left arm down might add some pop.

It’s not a mirrored video!

 

[chic]

It’s not a mirrored video!

Lmao my brain didn't even process he was one o' those southern paw typa guys.
Just assumed tossing arm was left without going back to check.

OP adjust as needed for you're left handed trickery

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

In getting your toss and contact point forward of the BL, your R foot should land completely in front of the BL if possible.

As a lefty, you should try to maximize that lefty spin with your slice & topspin-slice serves. Those can be more effective against a lot of R-handed player rather than a kick serve that bounces the other way.

 

[Trevor2023]

As a lefty, you should try to maximize that lefty spin with your slice & topspin serves. Those can be more effective against a lot of R-handed player rather than a kick serve that bounces the other way.

Definitely - I do favour the slice and flat on first serves which are quite effective against club players, but not a huge advantage against more advanced players (5.5-6+) at the moment. Even on the ad court, a strong player with a good return of serve and backhand can adequately (although not strongly) return a slicing wide serve. I usually use flat serves to mix it up to go wide on deuce or T on ad side. A fair number of serves are more in the body..

My kick serve is mostly topspin (sometimes with a bit of slice) and I reserve that for the second serve - I will generally also more try to place to right hander's backhand.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Definitely - I do favour the slice and flat on first serves which are quite effective against club players, but not currently a significant advantage against more advanced players (5.5-6+). Even on the ad court, a strong player with a good return of serve and backhand can adequately (although not strongly) return a slicing wide serve. I usually use flat serves to mix it up to go wide on deuce or T on ad side.

My kick serve is mostly topspin (sometimes with a bit of slice) and I reserve that for the second serve - I will also try to place to right hander's backhand.

Prior to playing against 5.0/5.5 players, I wasn’t even using my flat serve very much.

With my lefty spins, hitting it to the Bh or wide if the Bh can be quite effective. But I took more pleasure, with very decent results spinning into the body on a righty’s Fh side. I was often amused watching players trying to run around it to hit their Fh. I referred to it as my heat-seeking serve

 

[ballmachineguy]

I wouldn’t worry about anything other than the toss being not into the court.

How about where his racquet arm is when his leg drive hits max acceleration (as feet leave ground)?

https://imgur.com/a/3mgPORN

 

[Curious]

How about where his racquet arm is when his leg drive hits max acceleration (as feet leave ground)?

https://imgur.com/a/3mgPORN

I look at it as a whole and see no issues with his serve, except the toss not being enough into the court.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@Curious

How about where his racquet arm is when his leg drive hits max acceleration (as feet leave ground)?

https://imgur.com/a/3mgPORN

Leg drive is definitely late here. Both legs should be fully extended & he should start to leave the ground at the bottom of the racquet drop. His L leg doesn't fully extend until some time later -- during the upward swing.

And the R leg still appears to be bent when the L one has straightened. There really does not appear to be much leg drive with the R leg at all.

 

[johnmccabe]

At that level, what is the purpose of improving serve? More wins or just simply pursuing better technique. Different priorities depending on the goal.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

 

[Trevor2023]

Excellent - once in a while my serve in practice can really "click" and I'm not alway really sure why. I think this discussion has really pointed out some key areas that my first serve could improve including leg/foot timing/drive/position, shoulder tilt and ball toss. I can now really see how some of the mechanics that could actually be limiting my effectiveness which is what I experienced in match play. I think it's a matter of incorporating those elements coherently so that it "feels" natural and hopefully will result in a better serve.. then getting some more reps etc.

 

[chic]

Excellent - once in a while my serve in practice can really "click" and I'm not alway really sure why. I think this discussion has really pointed out some key areas that my first serve could improve including leg/foot timing/drive/position, shoulder tilt and ball toss. I can now really see how some of the mechanics that could actually be limiting my effectiveness which is what I experienced in match play. I think it's a matter of incorporating those elements coherently so that it "feels" natural and hopefully will result in a better serve.. then getting some more reps etc.

This seems key to what your stated goals are.
None of your timings are so far off I would expect much trouble changing the individual parts.

If you go to make a correction and it takes longer than 10min (assuming hitting hopper serves) for it to feel better than before you're probably overcorrecting

 

[Curious]

@Curious

Leg drive is definitely late here. Both legs should be fully extended & he should start to leave the ground at the bottom of the racquet drop. His L leg doesn't fully extend until some time later -- during the upward swing.

And the R leg still appears to be bent when the L one straighten. There really does not appear to be much leg drive with the R leg at all.

Nitpicking imo.
Has the leg drive, has the drop. Of course it could be more knee bend, more explosive etc but it’s a fundamentally sound serve motion.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Nitpicking imo.

Well, sure, if you don’t like racquet head speed.

 

[jimmy8]

Don't put your back foot in front of your front foot. Jump and hit the ball. Hit the ball at a higher point, I think you let the ball fall too far down.

 

[Curious]

Well, sure, if you don’t like racquet head speed.

Some people just swing faster. Without much knees, legs.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Nitpicking imo.
Has the leg drive, has the drop. Of course it could be more knee bend, more explosive etc but it’s a fundamentally sound serve motion.

Not really, it's definitely off. The OP should be using his R leg to drive upward while his L leg should help help to drive him forward (as well as upward) -- as long as the toss is forward.

With the OP's serve, his back leg is driving upward but not forward. His front leg does not seem to contribute to the upward drive very much at all -- it seems to be along for the ride (so to speak).

 

[Curious]

Starts at 3:29

 

[johnmccabe]

Some people just swing faster. Without much knees, legs.

Accelerating earlier and over a longer path is essentially what makes Kygrios swing so efficient. It does work and can be copied.

 

[Curious]

Accelerating earlier and over a longer path is essentially what makes Kygrios swing so efficient. It does work and can be copied.

He goes through trophy position very fast, right?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Some people just swing faster. Without much knees, legs.

Sure it's certainly possible. But NOT advisable. This can put undue stress on the shoulder over time. Wawrinka is a case in point. That video is Nick just showing off. It's not his real serve. A good, properly-timed leg drive will help to achieve great ESR (racket drop) w/o putting a lot of stress on the shoulder

@johnmccabe

 

[johnmccabe]

He goes through trophy position very fast, right?

As if he gives 0 fxxx to trophy position

 

[Curious]

As if he gives 0 fxxx to trophy position

For him trophy position is not a position but a moment rather.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Some people just swing faster. Without much knees, legs.

Equally troubling to your doing some wrong things hitting the ball is your ability to discount doing some things that are correct. “That’s not really important.” Do you not really want to improve?

 

[Curious]

Equally troubling to your doing some wrong things hitting the ball is your ability to discount doing some things that are correct. “That’s not really important.” Do you not really want to improve?

Did you watch the Taylor Dent video I posted? He says the legs make only a small contribution. The main thing is that whipping arm action.
Then you watch Roddick explanation and he says maybe 40mph comes from legs!
Besides, I thought you thought kinetic chain was bs.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Did you watch the Taylor Dent video I posted? He says the legs make only a small contribution. The main thing is that whipping arm action.
Then you watch Roddick explanation and he says maybe 40mph comes from legs!
Besides, I thought you thought kinetic chain was bs.

The legs make a difference and to more than just power.

What does kinetic chain have to do with anything. Some parts moving lead to other parts moving in every sports movement. Some explanations of it are bs.

With the serve the leg forces move in the opposite direction of the arm. More like a kinetic disconnect that sets the arm up to go fast.

 

[Curious]

Some explanations of it are bs.

With the serve the leg forces move in the opposite direction of the arm. More like a kinetic disconnect that sets the arm up to go fast.

What do you think about this experiment? Iffy , eh?

 

[LeeD]

Late to the party.
Form is only a part of the equation.
Result is a bigger part.
Would be informative to see your serves from behind, regular speed, to see the ball and your consistency.

 

[Trevor2023]

Late to the party.
Form is only a part of the equation.
Result is a bigger part.
Would be informative to see your serves from behind, regular speed, to see the ball and your consistency.

Yeah.. interestingly just saw big-serving F Auger-Aliassime lost to a tight match Y Watanuki today. Weird thing is I think Watanuki does something very similar with feet which I saw quickly on highlight reel (after this discussion) and found a slightly better angle which found in 1 year old video.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Yeah.. interestingly just saw big-serving F Auger-Aliassime lost to a tight match Y Watanuki today. Weird thing is I think Watanuki does something very similar with feet which I saw quickly on highlight reel (after this discussion) and found a slightly better angle which found in 1 year old video.

The difference here is that the back foot, while stepping slightly past the front foot, still stays behind it (which helps prevent early opening of the hips). Compare to Serena Williams:

There are several ATP servers that do that. However, what you really don't want is this:

Some people can pull that off, but it is generally best avoided at the amateur level.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yeah.. interestingly just saw big-serving F Auger-Aliassime lost to a tight match Y Watanuki today. Weird thing is I think Watanuki does something very similar with feet which I saw quickly on highlight reel (after this discussion) and found a slightly better angle which found in 1 year old video.

Felix A-A actually has a better serve to emulate

 

[johnmccabe]

Felix A-A actually has a better serve to emulate

I love every single shot of FAA, but he seems to quit winning.

 

[ParrotOnStrings]

Dont care about the tiny errors. Most important is the flow, the timing of the whole movement.

 

[LeeD]

Yeah.. interestingly just saw big-serving F Auger-Aliassime lost to a tight match Y Watanuki today. Weird thing is I think Watanuki does something very similar with feet which I saw quickly on highlight reel (after this discussion) and found a slightly better angle which found in 1 year old video.

 

[LeeD]

There is video of Tony Roach stepping ahead of front foot, but he preps about 9" behind the baseline.

 

[Trevor2023]

Given all the helpful suggestions and enthusiasm.. I'll post couple "in progress" updates (with two views)! I think it will definitely take a few more practices to get more comfortable & consistent. Balls are almost all fairly old. And yes - avoiding faults is important!

First serve: obviously slight foot fault - however mechanics do seem a little more sound. Feet position a bit better & tossing into the court - trying to make sure still moving body up at contact point (instead of prioritizing straightening legs early). Arm/shoulder position ok - somewhat unchanged (despite trying to improve).

Second serve: I am more concerned about consistency than power, so realize that in court positioning isn't great. Still can sometimes hit a reasonable kick like in second video below.

 

[chic]

Seems like you're moving in a good direction. Feels like you need to hit the ball higher. It seems like you're stifling your own jump/ arm straightening, etc to take the ball lower than you should.
Could just be timing but I'd try a slightly higher toss to give time to reach and accelerate all the way up.

Someone on PC can prob take screenshots or describe better

 

[chic]

Still think tossing arm is a bit awkward. Maybe should be straight up and jab down toward your obliques, but it's better.

Overall I'd say let your body guide you with the goal of creating acceleration and moving the racquet face and your weight toward the target.
Given your level you'll probably be able to Intuit a lot of what you need by watching slomo pro videos and using general tennis principles.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Can you post a longer video of consecutive serves hitting spots? So a video showing you start to finish, not slow motion, hitting three wide, three body/middle, and three T. Then seconds serves of the same. Just think that might be helpful to see for folks commenting.

 

[jz000]

It's a good spin serve. I'd hate to receive that lefty serve...

 

[Trevor2023]

Can you post a longer video of consecutive serves hitting spots? So a video showing you start to finish, not slow motion, hitting three wide, three body/middle, and three T. Then seconds serves of the same. Just think that might be helpful to see for folks commenting.

Sure. I have two videos of 2-4 first serves aimed at each spot (deuce and ad). Focusing on outcome is good, but also risks taking a half-step back on mechanics - I think my tossing arm and placement still needs to be worked on. For the second serve, if there's any low hanging fruit that would result in a better serve, I'm happy to hear. Unfortunately, I do have a non-tennis day job..
first:

second:

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It still amazes me that your knee bend appears to pretty decent yet you barely get off the ground, especially your right foot. Nor does the right foot land in front of the BL

 

[Curious]

It still amazes me that your knee bend appears to pretty decent yet you barely get off the ground, especially your right foot. Nor does the right foot land in front of the BL

Some people don’t have a great vertical jump. I wonder if that’s the case here. Also he’s a big tall guy as far as I can tell from videos, which could be a factor I guess.