One thing that I don't think is emphasized enough is the importance of the serve toss's depth into the court. I think, too often, recreational players toss the ball too much straight up and not enough into the court, resulting in a weaker serve that lacks the power of the body's forward momentum into the serve. This is what results in the server ending up inside the court instead of staying planted behind the baseline. I think once this toss into the court depth riddle is solved for the server, the matter of clock placement (11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock, etc) is easier to determine because the overall "feel' of how the serve should be hit is much more correct. Thoughts? Opinions?
Serve Toss Depth Into The Court
- Thread starter JamesV
- Start date
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Agree it's a quick fix for most hacks but they won't listen to your advices.
fuzz nation
G.O.A.T.
Yes, indeed.
One warm-up drill I like to use when working on somebody's serve is to start with setting up at the service line and hitting a few serves on the fly to the far fence instead of down into the court. The idea is to get the fundamental drive going both up and forward to hit the ball using our larger muscle groups and the location of the toss is key for enabling this. If the toss isn't located out ahead of them - in this case, about a foot ahead of the service line - they can't "push out" to the ball and really send it.
One warm-up drill I like to use when working on somebody's serve is to start with setting up at the service line and hitting a few serves on the fly to the far fence instead of down into the court. The idea is to get the fundamental drive going both up and forward to hit the ball using our larger muscle groups and the location of the toss is key for enabling this. If the toss isn't located out ahead of them - in this case, about a foot ahead of the service line - they can't "push out" to the ball and really send it.
ScotianTennis
New User
Agree regards to forward energy. But it's a bit more complex than just toss ball into court. I think you need to look at it case by case. Some players toss too far into court and end up contacting too early chasing the ball with the arm and not using shoulders or rest of body. Thereby losing the kinetic chain energy. So important that whether toss is into court or on baseline that contact is the same and over the hitting arm shoulder is maintained.
Very individual as well watch Federer's serve at times toss is right on baseline not into court at all but still gets forward energy. Whereas kyrgios tosses so far into the court...
Very individual as well watch Federer's serve at times toss is right on baseline not into court at all but still gets forward energy. Whereas kyrgios tosses so far into the court...
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
During my last lesson (10 days ago), my coach told me that I was actually tossing too much into the court and to the right and she indicated that I should toss closer to the baseline (maybe 25 cms or about 10 inches in front of it).
federrero
Rookie
Can you show pictures which can prove that? First of all, you have to watch the player from the right angle to see where the ball goes. See the example below - the ball will be at least one foot into court when it will be hit.
From my observations (I compared several dozens of different tosses from different matches) Federer's toss placement is very consistent.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Yeah, I already know this.
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
I think it’s hard for the average Rec player to hit a serve 1
foot into the baseline. A reasonable toss would be for a slice and flat 6” forward from baseline and 6” to right or left of front foot. Topspin 6 “ into the court at around 12 o’clock.
foot into the baseline. A reasonable toss would be for a slice and flat 6” forward from baseline and 6” to right or left of front foot. Topspin 6 “ into the court at around 12 o’clock.
ScotianTennis
New User
The more you throw into the court the more difficult it is. Here is a good visual of Federer.
Can you show pictures which can prove that? First of all, you have to watch the player from the right angle to see where the ball goes. See the example below - the ball will be at least one foot into court when it will be hit.
From my observations (I compared several dozens of different tosses from different matches) Federer's toss placement is very consistent.
Soooo, you are saying that a proper toss/serve is better than a not entirely correct one. Hmmmmmm, let me think about it for a second.
(thinking)
Yes, I'm going to agree....
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Well, I think the toss is the most important part of the serve without a doubt. Toss is the boss!
And, location and timing of the toss are major aspects of the toss. However, toss depth is not typically the first thing I try to correct with players. Usually it's the left right location. Most people don't need a lot of depth into the court. Something around one foot into the court is usually adequate. And if you are hitting spin it doesn't need to be into the court hardly at all. So it's a bit of an individual thing and it varies, but anytime you can get people thinking about and working on their toss I think it's a positive.
And, location and timing of the toss are major aspects of the toss. However, toss depth is not typically the first thing I try to correct with players. Usually it's the left right location. Most people don't need a lot of depth into the court. Something around one foot into the court is usually adequate. And if you are hitting spin it doesn't need to be into the court hardly at all. So it's a bit of an individual thing and it varies, but anytime you can get people thinking about and working on their toss I think it's a positive.
ScotianTennis
New User
Pause at .53 the toss is directly on the baseline.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
At 1:14 the toss is about a foot into the court.
This is practice and may even be the first few serves.
ScotianTennis
New User
Where his toss is on baseline is most likely 2nd serve. 1st serve is just inside court but not very much compared to other players.
Here is actual match clip. Toss just few inches inside baseline.
Here is actual match clip. Toss just few inches inside baseline.
Oh man not again.
Till now, we thought that the toss was not important at all.
Did you know that the toss is the first action of every point?
Forward toss has its disadvantages of requiring body to move or lean forward at an angle. It was necessary to achieve pace with wooden rackets. Today it is not that important and may not even be a factor.
Hokiein304
New User
Maybe when the ball leaves his hand but look how far into the court he makes contact, at least a foot...look at the 10 second mark (put on pause and slowly move the video until you see contact point)...
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I look at where the foot lands for relative forward motion between servers. It is very easy to estimate. But it is not the same as impact.
Foot motion -
His foot is about 3" from the outer baseline edge of the baseline at the start. Usually I'd expect his toe to be within 1" from the outer edge of the baseline.
The baseline looks about 4" wide.
His heel lands about 1" in from the inner baseline edge.
From his toe before the serve to where his toe landed that would be
3" + 4" + 1" + 11"(? shoe size) = 19" of forward toe motion for this serve. This is farther than at impact.
Federer does not jump in very far. Raonic jumps in a long distance, 30"? This probably varies for types of serves and servers.
Measure impact for about 10 randomly selected Federer serves of the same type serve serves.
Measure impact for about 10 randomly selected serves of other servers for the same type serve.
If you have interest in how far into the court impact is, randomly pick serves from the side view where impact can be seen and a vertical can be seen behind the server, fence post. "1"" is way off for the high level servers.
Of course, with the code of the forum, no cherry picking.
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ScotianTennis
New User
How do you post a picture here, easier to explain with picture.
ScotianTennis
New User
3" + 4" + 1" + 11"(? shoe size) = 19" of forward toe motion for this serve.
OP original comment was how far into
OP original comment was how far into
ScotianTennis
New User
1st picture is about 1-2" into court - practice session, 2nd picture is actual match guessing approx 6" into court. I dont see anywhere near 1 foot on those two serves, but I guess that is perception...
I have cropped picture to show line so edge of picture shows ball toss to baseline.
New to this forum, so apologies too many posts on same thing....
I have cropped picture to show line so edge of picture shows ball toss to baseline.
New to this forum, so apologies too many posts on same thing....
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
1st picture is about 1-2" into court - practice session, 2nd picture is actual match guessing approx 6" into court. I dont see anywhere near 1 foot on those two serves, but I guess that is perception...
I have cropped picture to show line so edge of picture shows ball toss to baseline.
New to this forum, so apologies too many posts on same thing....
The camera is hand held so the frame will not have a vertical side and it will move during the video. You can see that the horizontal line, at the top, is not parallel to the camera's upper frame edge at impact.
I used the horizontal line with the two red marks as a reference of the horizontal. Take a piece of paper with a 90 degree corner on the top edge and place it on the line with red marks, on your computer screen. One edge on the line and the other edge down showing vertical. Move the paper corner under the ball and then the 90 degree edge is about vertical like a plumb bob. You may have to make the picture smaller to see the ball and court on your computer screen. I measure the distance from baseline outer edge to ball as about 3 baseline line widths (est. 4") or 12" in from the outer baseline edge. Estimate would be roughly 12" "in the court" for impact for that serve. His foot looks farther out than usual.
[The baseline location is the outer edge of the baseline. Pro courts have very wide painted lines, estimaed here as 4"?.]
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ScotianTennis
New User
The camera is hand held so the frame will not have a vertical side and it will move during the video. You can see that the horizontal line at the top is not parallel to the camera's upper frame edge at impact.
I used the horizontal line with the two red marks as reference of the horizontal. Take a piece of paper with a 90 degree corner on the top edge and place it on the line with red marks, on your computer screen. One edge on the line and the other edge down showing vertical. Move the paper corner under the ball and then the 90 degree edge is about vertical like a plumb bob. You may have to make the picture smaller to see the ball and court. I measure the distance from baselinbe outer edge to ball as about 3 line widths or 12" in from the outer baseline edge. Estimate would be roughly 12" "in the court" for impact for that serve
[The baseline location is the outer edge of the baseline. Pro courts have very wide painted lines, 4"?.
You need to take the picture the split second before contact not during contact. The movement of the racket through the hitting zone has moved the ball from the toss position.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
That is a good point. If you want to work on it for better accuracy get some clear videos and measure the impact locations.
You can predict the trajectory of the falling ball pretty well so you'll know where impact was.
Suggest that you download free open source Kinovea for video analysis. It allows side by side video comparisons and many other video functions.
If you move around a serve being struck with the camera the viewing angle has a large affect on where the ball appears to be.
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I went back to the video. From the last frame before first contact to the frame after first contact the ball rear edge has moved forward about one ball diameter for that serve. But we don't know when the impact occurred between frames. Subtract about one ball diameter, 3", from my estimate of 12" to correct that serve.
Or simpler - just locate the slowly dropping ball before impact.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Toly processed many strokes to show what was going on. See Anatoly Antipin Youtube for his work. I believe that he used Photoshop layering to produce his composite pictures and videos.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
You cannot post a picture directly from your computer. For a picture on your computer you must first upload it to a picture hosting website. When posted on the photo hosting website, right click on the picture and select "Copy Image Location" click. You need to find a picture hosting website and sign up.
To post on the forum click Reply. Place cursor where you want the picture. Click the image icon on the top of the Reply Box. Paste the "Image Location"into the box. Click "insert". The picture should appear.
It is simpler if you find a picture on the forum or internet (if allowed). Right click on it and click "Copy Image Locatio" as before. Do the same as above in Reply Box.
To copy a picture from your computer screen use Windows 10 Snipping Tool to get it on your computer.
Kinovea allows your to label and draw on video frames and make pictures from them. It is great for comparing videos side-by-side and you can make the impact frames of two videos synchronized for both videos and put on a count down time scale. For example, you can compare frame-by-frame what each player is doing in a tennis stroke counting down to impact.
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Boubi
Professional
In that case, i would not know what time it is...
ScotianTennis
New User
Not behind baseline, when they say toss behind your head for a kick serve it means more to the left (for a righty) but toss is still on the baseline or just slightly inside.
Generally kick serve is more body movement upward as opposed to into the court. If you toss too far into the court you won't be able to get under the ball and will end up chasing the ball with your arm, and hitting forward instead of upward.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Videos from above are relatively rare in tennis. Fuzzy Yellow Balls recorded some instructive videos several years ago. Many involved Frank Salazar as the subject. Toly made several of these videos into his composite pictures and videos. To see more of the details search the FYB videos, especially for the paths of the rackets.
Kick vs Slice Serves. Toss release and forward motion to impact. Notice that it is true that the ball is impacted for a kick serve 'more over the head'. But it is not true that the ball is 'tossed over the head for a kick serve'. The second statement ignores the significant forward movement of the head. Also the upper body faces 'more sideways' for the kick serve, not 'sideways' as is often repeated.
I cannot compare these Frank Salazar overhead videos to many current high level ATP servers because there are almost no above view videos available with identified serves. I believe that these represent high level kick serves for the toss release and forward movement that is so often misstated. Check forward motion with side views for identified serves. If your word beliefs do not agree with these pictures - check your beliefs out with videos.
Flat vs Slice Serves. Toss release and forward motion to impact.
If anyone disagrees with these pictures as representing the serves they can randomly collect side views of identified type serves and make measurements, for example, of how far the head moves forward from toss release to impact. Don't simply find pictures taken from unknown camera angles as the camera only takes 2D images and shrinks much of the 3rd dimension toward or away from the camera lens.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Toly's work from 2013. Shoulder turn for kick, slice and flat serves to ad court.
Above camera views showing the paths of the hand, racket and impact for each type serve. Notice that the racket appears longer for the kick serve at impact than for the flat or slice serves. That is because of the angle on the racket that allows the kick serve to keep rising more through impact. The racket rises a few inches while for the flat and slices serves the racket head does not rise as much. See high speed videos.
Thread
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/question-about-ball-toss-for-kick-serve.462410/
There are many other threads on the kick serve. Suggest searching with Toly, Chas if you are interested in pictures and videos for illustration.
Above camera views showing the paths of the hand, racket and impact for each type serve. Notice that the racket appears longer for the kick serve at impact than for the flat or slice serves. That is because of the angle on the racket that allows the kick serve to keep rising more through impact. The racket rises a few inches while for the flat and slices serves the racket head does not rise as much. See high speed videos.
Thread
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/question-about-ball-toss-for-kick-serve.462410/
There are many other threads on the kick serve. Suggest searching with Toly, Chas if you are interested in pictures and videos for illustration.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Which post were you replying to?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Guys I specifically took some videos at the US Open in line with the baseline to see exactly this.
J
J
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