Serve video using open stances and open grip

[oserver]

This video shows something totally against all the teaching of "correct" tennis serve on stance and grip. The stance is not a platform stance or a pin-point stance. The grip is not a continental grip. So what I was doing? I had been trying to improve my serve using continental grip for a long time and felt I was hitting a ceiling. A little change here and a little change there now become a drastic deviation from the norm. I can not even find a name for it, so I call this "open tennis serve" since both stance and grip are open ("hybrid open tennis serve" if just on of these two is open).

Like to see constructive criticism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fWnZSIlF8&feature=youtu.be

 

[BMC9670]

(duplicate post)

 

[BMC9670]

This video shows something totally against all the teaching of "correct" tennis serve on stance and grip. The stance is not a platform stance or a pin-point stance. The grip is not a continental grip. So what I was doing? I had been trying to improve my serve using continental grip for a long time and felt I was hitting a ceiling. A little change here and a little change there now become a drastic deviation from the norm. I can not even find a name for it, so I call this "open tennis serve" since both stance and grip are open ("hybrid open tennis serve" if just on of these two is open).

Like to see constructive criticism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fWnZSIlF8&feature=youtu.be

Already has a name: "pancake serve".

 

[Chas Tennis]

You should first measure the serve speed. There are probably many techniques to serve 75-85 MPH.

Take a video from the side, perpendicular to ball's trajectory about 10 feet out from where it was struck. Maybe we can get some idea of how fast the serve is from how far it travels between two frames.

 

[thatguymattin]

A friend of mine has a platform pancake serve, and can easily serve 110 mph+ with a lot of spin. Though he hasn't played in a while; not sure how it is now.

 

[magnut]

110+ with spin LOL. he must be seven feet tall will arms like stallone. i would have to see it to believe it.

its funny how fast people think they serve. i have had people tell me they serve over 110+ ...i put the gun on them and they cant even break 90 when hitting it as hard and flat as they possibly can. i play people and they tell me my serve is 120 range...LOL...not even close.

until you have a gun on it you cant tell. 110 is a fast serve outside the ATP and even then its not real slow.

 

[BMC9670]

its funny how fast people think they serve. i have had people tell me they serve over 110+ ...i put the gun on them and they cant even break 90 when hitting it as hard and flat as they possibly can. i play people and they tell me my serve is 120 range...LOL...not even close.
.

Nailed it! I call it ESS, or estimated serve speed.

Here's the math:
ESS X reality = ESS - 20 to 30mph.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

I've played with some guys with huge serves and I thought it must be close to 200 km/h. But one of them had it measured with a radar and it was around 160 km/h, so 100 mph. And that's the fastest serves I see at club level, regardless if it goes in or not.

 

[thatguymattin]

110+ with spin LOL. he must be seven feet tall will arms like stallone. i would have to see it to believe it.

its funny how fast people think they serve. i have had people tell me they serve over 110+ ...i put the gun on them and they cant even break 90 when hitting it as hard and flat as they possibly can. i play people and they tell me my serve is 120 range...LOL...not even close.

until you have a gun on it you cant tell. 110 is a fast serve outside the ATP and even then its not real slow.

You'd be surprised :T I recorded his serve with an app and got 110, but this is two years after he stopped playing. The app is relatively accurate as well. He's very muscular so his racquet speed is really fast when serving. Also his serve toss is low...

 

[LeeD]

While there is no doubt some retired tennis players can hit into the 120's, and even some amateur players can do it, there is no doubt this vid shows a pancake serve of the sub 85 mph variety, probably a lot slower.

 

[magnut]

You'd be surprised :T I recorded his serve with an app and got 110, but this is two years after he stopped playing. The app is relatively accurate as well. He's very muscular so his racquet speed is really fast when serving. Also his serve toss is low...

so he is not serving hes just hitting it as hard as he can. thats not serving.

 

[thatguymattin]

so he is not serving hes just hitting it as hard as he can. thats not serving.

Jesus Christ, what's your problem? I'm not exaggerating anything. All I'm doing is stating something that is true and proven. There are people in this world who can achieve such things.

 

[WildVolley]

A friend of mine has a platform pancake serve, and can easily serve 110 mph+ with a lot of spin. Though he hasn't played in a while; not sure how it is now.

But we don't see higher level or ranked players using this technique. It really is easier to develop racket head speed and put topspin on a ball using a continental serve.

I've measured pancake serves with E/SW fh grips at around 100mph, but they all had underspin on them and tended to go long.

 

[LeeD]

Didn't Boris Becker serve flat serves with a eForehand grip, with a SLIGHT twist back towards continental?
BB hit some decently fast serves.

 

[magnut]

Jesus Christ, what's your problem? I'm not exaggerating anything. All I'm doing is stating something that is true and proven. There are people in this world who can achieve such things.

LOL...calm down friend. 110+ pankace serve with underspin or underspin slice. Please explain to me how that is consistent. i want to know what his percentage is of actually going in the court. Like I said....unless he is over 7 feet tall and just hitting down on the ball its pretty much impossible. i doubt many guys on the tour could consistently hit an under spin serve 110+ with all arm and get it in the box. tHere is just no way to control it. it has to actually go in the box to be a serve. whats his second serve 25 mph LOL.

 

[BMC9670]

Didn't Boris Becker serve flat serves with a eForehand grip, with a SLIGHT twist back towards continental?
BB hit some decently fast serves.

Internet images all look pretty conti to me...

 

[LeeD]

Once again?
I can believe a lower level player, say high 3.5, can hit well over 120 mph.
NO his serve need not be all backspin serves with an eastern forehand grip.
Nobody said his fastest serves were consistent. If even ONE in 30 tries top 120, he can hit 120.
Nobody said he could hit a 80 mph consistent 2nd serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

------------duplicate post --deleted

 

[BMC9670]

I can believe a lower level player, say high 3.5, can hit well over 120 mph.

Uh…sure. Well over 120 ESS. (See post #7)

 

[oserver]

Already has a name: "pancake serve".

Care to deliberate how serves in the video are pancake serves? How about you make pancake serves and record them. Then we can compare frame by frame so we can get the names right. I assembled a multi-frame images for the first serve in the video. It is on this web page (image C) -

http://www.tennis-points.com/photos.html

 

[WildVolley]

Didn't Boris Becker serve flat serves with a eForehand grip, with a SLIGHT twist back towards continental?
BB hit some decently fast serves.

No, I'd argue that he hit with a continental forehand grip rotated slightly toward eastern fh.

Also, he didn't stand with an open stance and pancake at the ball.

 

[BMC9670]

Care to deliberate how serves in the video are pancake serves? How about you make pancake serves and record them. Then we can compare frame by frame so we can get the names right. I assembled a multi-frame images for the first serve in the video. It is on this web page (image C) -

http://www.tennis-points.com/photos.html

Nah, no need to deliberate - it's a pancake serve. Little kids and recreational adults do it every day. It works, but you don't see it in higher level tennis because it has limitations.

 

[Topspin Shot]

This serve needs a name all to its own. Let's call it the Dunning-Kruger serve.

 

[oserver]

This serve needs a name all to its own. Let's call it the Dunning-Kruger serve.

Question for you - how different it is between a serve and forehand baseline strokes so that what works for forehand open stance baseline strokes (using open grip like #3 or #4) will not work for tennis serves?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Question for you - how different it is between a serve and forehand baseline strokes so that what works for forehand open stance baseline strokes (using open grip like #3 or #4) will not work for tennis serves?

To starr with, serve is overhand, forehand is underhand.

 

[oserver]

To starr with, serve is overhand, forehand is underhand.

Looks like a Dunning-Kruger answer to me? So we cannot do open stance backhand shots just because it is hit from left side instead from right side (for a right hander)?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Looks like a Dunning-Kruger answer to me? So we cannot do open stance backhand shots just because it is hit from left side instead from right side (for a right hander)?

What the? Where did backhands enter the picture?

 

[BMC9670]

Question for you - how different it is between a serve and forehand baseline strokes so that what works for forehand open stance baseline strokes (using open grip like #3 or #4) will not work for tennis serves?

You cannot pronate properly with a pancake serve grip, and that's a big reason why it's limiting. You don't pronate the arm the same way on a forehand stroke - hence Topspins answer that one is overhand and one is underhand.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Care to deliberate how serves in the video are pancake serves? How about you make pancake serves and record them. Then we can compare frame by frame so we can get the names right. I assembled a multi-frame images for the first serve in the video. It is on this web page (image C) -

http://www.tennis-points.com/photos.html

On C frames #11 to 12, I can't see any indication that this serve uses internal shoulder rotation.

Pace is unknown.

In order to do this kind of work you need a high speed video camera and some way to measure serve speed.

 

[oserver]

You cannot pronate properly with a pancake serve grip, and that's a big reason why it's limiting. You don't pronate the arm the same way on a forehand stroke - hence Topspins answer that one is overhand and one is underhand.

On the contrary, using #3 and #4 grip make it easier and more forceful to do the pronation part than using continental grip. The edge leading part is the opposite. If you use #3 and #4 grip, it is harder to perfect the edge leading part before the shoulder/arm/wrist pronation to open up the racket face before the contact point. I did train myself to do that part pretty close to what I do using the continental grip. If you look at frame 8, 9, 10 and I, J in image B, and frame 9, 10 of image C, you can see the edge leading part. Frame 11 -17, J - O of image B, frame 10 - 16 of image C show the pronation sequences. Where is the signature of pancake serve? Can you point frame numbers?

 

[crash1929]

OP I wouldn't go with this serve motion. I believe BMC9670, who replied first is correct wrt to his pancake reference. Although it is not a nice term it does communicate an idea. Currently you don't get the torso or forearm involved, just your wrist.

I would try to change to a more classic form.

Looks like the ball is going ok. But you could do a lot better.

 

[dominikk1985]

Question for you - how different it is between a serve and forehand baseline strokes so that what works for forehand open stance baseline strokes (using open grip like #3 or #4) will not work for tennis serves?

It is not the open stance. there are many servers with pinpoint stances who "step open" like you do, there is nothing bad about that.

however what they do (and what open stance baseliners also do) is counter rotating the hips and shoulders, so that the feet are open but the shoulders are closed.

that way you can still get the rotational energy, that you don't get, because your chest faces the net. your serve is not terrible but you are leaving some MPH on the table by not closing the shoulders and keeping them closed as long as possible.

also the open grip will make it harder to use pronation/ISR to give the ball that little extra.

you can keep that open stance, but try to close the hips and shoulders. also use a correct grip, so that your arm can turn the racketface into the ball.

 

[oserver]

you can keep that open stance, but try to close the hips and shoulders. also use a correct grip, so that your arm can turn the racketface into the ball.

Thanks for the advises. I kept serving using continental grip for seven years. Used open grip serve for just two months and the results is encouraging. Heck, I guess I should keep doing open grip for another seven years to see what happens (hope I can still play tennis into my 70's.)

 

[Bendex]

The guy seems to be using bad technique on purpose, even advocating it. I wonder… did he once have good technique and not think the easy power and accuracy was challenging enough? Or has he always had bad technique, and finds it easier to try and convince others that he is right? Mind blown.

 

[Bendex]

Sorry about the previous post, I didn't realise it was you in the video. I went back and read the original post.

The serve in the video isn't unique. I have a 9 year old student who has exactly the same serve. After many private lessons, he is getting the hang of a more traditional serve. The speed and accuracy of his first serve has dramatically improved (which is always the case when I successfully correct a pancake serve) but, for now, he still goes back to his pancake serve for second serves. I suggest you persist with learning correct technique, perhaps do some sessions with a good coach.

 

[oserver]

The guy seems to be using bad technique on purpose, even advocating it. I wonder… did he once have good technique and not think the easy power and accuracy was challenging enough? Or has he always had bad technique, and finds it easier to try and convince others that he is right? Mind blown.

The things I like to advocate is to apply what worked for open ground strokes (open stance plus open grip) to serves. I got one answer from a poster saying one is underhand stroke and another is a overhead. Hope to hear more. Just cannot believe that a line is draw in the sand so the open tennis trend stop at ground strokes and there are no chances to apply to serve strokes.

 

[Bendex]

The things I like to advocate is to apply what worked for open ground strokes (open stance plus open grip) to serves. I got one answer from a poster saying one is underhand stroke and another is a overhead. Hope to hear more. Just cannot believe that a line is draw in the sand so the open tennis trend stop at ground strokes and there are no chances to apply to serve strokes.

The issue isn't so much the open stance. "The Serve Doctor" at IMG Academy advocates an open stance, as it allows the torso to really coil and uncoil (though you aren't doing that). The issue is the grip, and the effect it has on your body mechanics.

I will leave aside the ramifications on spin and control for now... just imagine you are hammering in a nail with a hammer. Would you get more power with a traditional hammer grip, which uses the strongest muscle group in your arm (triceps), or by turning the hammer so you are hammering palm down, and completely bypassing the triceps?

But this shouldn't be a theoretical debate, I have corrected too many pancake serves to be convinced that people were better off before the correction.

 

[BMC9670]

But this shouldn't be a theoretical debate, I have corrected too many pancake serves to be convinced that people were better off before the correction.

Amen to that! If the pancake serve was superior, pros would be flippin' those jacks!

 

[LeeD]

Open stanced forehands are hit so the player can stop and recover quickly, hit with topspin, NOT for power.
On a serve, you toss the ball, you decide when and where the contact point is, and POWER is a premium needed to win the point or force a weak return.

 

[Coolio]

I rate this thread 1 star. Terrible.

 

[oserver]

But this shouldn't be a theoretical debate, I have corrected too many pancake serves to be convinced that people were better off before the correction.

Everything has a practical appearance and theoretical reasoning burying a little deep under the surface. Popularity of open stance/open grip ground strokes can be explained by biomechanics. I'm also a USPTA certified tennis coach back in 2010, and have experiences correcting students from using pancake save grip to using continental grip too. Now there are more choices in improving serve stills. Continental grip is not the only way. I was in the box for seven years. Now I try to look beyond the window. Time will tell. Not this year, not the next. 5 - 10 years from now there should be some conclusion.

 

[Bendex]

Everything has a practical appearance and theoretical reasoning burying a little deep under the surface. Popularity of open stance/open grip ground strokes can be explained by biomechanics. I'm also a USPTA certified tennis coach back in 2010, and have experiences correcting students from using pancake save grip to using continental grip too. Now there are more choices in improving serve stills. Continental grip is not the only way. I was in the box for seven years. Now I try to look beyond the window. Time will tell. Not this year, not the next. 5 - 10 years from now there should be some conclusion.

The experiment has already been done. There are many people using a forehand grip on their serve. Some of them are quite accurate after using it for 20 years, but non of them are powerful and accurate. None. Ever. Ever.

 

[oserver]

The experiment has already been done. There are many people using a forehand grip on their serve. Some of them are quite accurate after using it for 20 years, but non of them are powerful and accurate. None. Ever. Ever.

It will be interesting/entertaining if you can post some videos or pictures of the experiment that use open stances and open grips so I can correct my "pancake" serve?

 

[dr_punk]

My family every year plays football on Thanksgiving. I think we're not the only ones that do it. It might be one of the few times in the year I play football. It's fun, but there is no one telling us we are throwing or catching wrong.

My point? If it were a case that I were learning a sport, and in this case tennis... Its probably only right that I do it the way its supposed to. Pancake service is not an efficient serve stroke because, like the rest of tennis, does not utilize the body's movements effectively.

If you're just looking to have fun, who cares how you serve. Just don't make a case for this being something you could teach. USPTA or not.

 

[Topspin Shot]

A Google search reveals you have no USPTA certification, "Coach" Gary.

 

[oserver]

A Google search reveals you have no USPTA certification, "Coach" Gary.

So you like off topic stuff instead continue the discussion of substance of this topic (I answered that on other thread). I asked you this - "Question for you - how different it is between a serve and forehand baseline strokes so that what works for forehand open stance baseline strokes (using open grip like #3 or #4) will not work for tennis serves?" and you give an obvious answer that a non-tennis player can easily do. Do you have more to add?

 

[Power Player]

Well I guess we'd like to know what your agenda is.

So far you have linked to a youtube account called Open Stance tennis - which clearly leads me to believe you are trying to start some kind of brand.

Secondly you claim to have been a USPTA coach and that has been proven to be false.

We have to question why you would say such a thing and you should answer before we can process to entertain this more while you try and drive clicks to your youtube page.

 

[oserver]

Who are you? Just because you have 17,698 posts here doesn't mean you can dictate this forum/thread, or represent every other viewer/poster here.

If you really care I have USPTA coach certificate or not, just call them.

If the rules say that a poster cannot have a youTube video (or a channel, for that matter), show me that rule.

Enough for off topic stuff. If one does not like this topic, no one force you to come here. You can start a thread on my coach certificate if you like.

 

[oserver]

Regarding the agenda - start a discussion on more options on using our feet and hand in playing tennis. Closed stance and closed grips are not the only way to serve a tennis ball. Open tennis serve (both stance and grip are open) or hybrid Open tennis serve (either open stance with closed grip, or closed stance with open grip) can be effective too (in my humble opinion of course). I said it may take 5 - 10 years to validate this idea, and this is just the beginning of an interesting debate.

If I say that you have an agenda to make me silent, what will you say?

 

[Coolio]

If I say that you have an agenda to make me silent, what will you say?