Power Player
Bionic Poster
LOL. So in summation this guy has a pancake serve and wants justification for it and youtube views.
Serve video using open stances and open grip
- Thread starter oserver
- Start date
Topspin Shot
Legend
But why lie about the certification? And why the website?
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
A guy that I regularly played with (he's helping his daughter rehab a house so I haven't seen him on the courts this summer) had his serve clocked above 120 MPH. It's not hard to believe as he's in the top two fastest servers that I've returned against. He's 6' 5" and very, very strong but he has polished groundstrokes and a good net game too. His downfall is fitness.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Not sure. We both asked him and he got super defensive about it.
Takes away his credibility and pretty much puts to bed his theory that a pancake serve from an open stance will be a staple of the ATP in 10 years.
Topspin Shot
Legend
I agree. Not that he had much credibility to begin with.
Just go to your local club on a Saturday afternoon. You'll see plenty of long term pancake serve experiments.
dominikk1985
Legend
I don't care about his credibility but I would like to know why an open grip would be better.
the reason why closed grips are used since about 80 years is that you can turn the arm into the ball getting an extra hinge to accelerate.
with an open grip you can just use shoulder flexion, arm extension and wrist flexion while the closed grip allows to also use ISR and pronation to accelerate the racket around the hand.
regarding the open stance I think it is OK, but you still need to counter rotate you hips and shoulders so that you can use rotational energy.
if you start with an open chest you are also robbing yourself of a gear to accelerate.
the reason why closed grips are used since about 80 years is that you can turn the arm into the ball getting an extra hinge to accelerate.
with an open grip you can just use shoulder flexion, arm extension and wrist flexion while the closed grip allows to also use ISR and pronation to accelerate the racket around the hand.
regarding the open stance I think it is OK, but you still need to counter rotate you hips and shoulders so that you can use rotational energy.
if you start with an open chest you are also robbing yourself of a gear to accelerate.
Pronation and topspin
Both do help with placement.
50 percents plus requirement of serves in has to be established.
It is very difficult to pronate with a eastern forehand grip.
I believe you are wasting your talents/time posting in this thread but it is
the free country ( I know that we are in different countries).
Pronation and topspin are two basic fundamental blocks of orthodox teaching of tennis.
Both do help with placement.
50 percents plus requirement of serves in has to be established.
It is very difficult to pronate with a eastern forehand grip.
I believe you are wasting your talents/time posting in this thread but it is
the free country ( I know that we are in different countries).
oserver
Professional
Glad to see your constructive conversation (instead hear noises or policing/detective statements.) Like I said before, these forms (open stance serve and open grip serve) need validation. It may take 5 - 10 years before we can have an acceptable/definitive answer. Just like open grip ground strokes, 15 - 20 years ago they were not well adapted by players.
A short answer to why I think open grip serve can be better, at least for generating more spin, is the engagement of muscle groups for more angular/rotational movements. This is the same reason why we use more and more open grip ground strokes (load-explode-land) instead step-turn-hit of classic form. At first try of open grip serves, I hit the balls directly landing at or closed to the opposite fence; just could not bring the ball down. By increasing internal shoulder rotation, with the help of more back bending, waist/hip/knee twists and turns, it finally worked. My left hip was pretty sore after a few days practice, that had not happen before. At that time, I was worried about getting injury because I was mostly using open stance to do it. It turned out no problem at all. I know I had found a new source of energy/power for serve - hip muscles. We use hip muscles do what ever strokes we make, but with open grip and/or open stance, the potential of this large muscle group will finally be released fully. Beside hip muscles, I do more twists and turns on other muscle groups than when I used closed grips. Sorry for a short answer. More to come.
WildVolley
Legend
I'm still confused as to why you think an open stance is better?
Serving is a throwing type motion using a racket. The server can not legally walk or run into the serve. What we tend to see is a lot of hip rotation into the serve starting out of a closed type stance. The closest I've seen to an open type serve was Goran, and even he started closer to neutral than to open and still was able to rotate his hips far away from the hitting position during the windup. I think starting in a true open stance limits the ability to rotate the hips back and forward, limiting hip speed and therefore rotation into the shot. We don't see pitchers and quarterbacks stand facing the target and then try to throw hard out of that position. They normally step forward into the throw allowing the hips and shoulders to turn sideways before snapping forward into position.
Also, I don't consider the forehand and the serve similar shots. I've never understood people who do. FHs are not overhand throwing motions.
Serving is a throwing type motion using a racket. The server can not legally walk or run into the serve. What we tend to see is a lot of hip rotation into the serve starting out of a closed type stance. The closest I've seen to an open type serve was Goran, and even he started closer to neutral than to open and still was able to rotate his hips far away from the hitting position during the windup. I think starting in a true open stance limits the ability to rotate the hips back and forward, limiting hip speed and therefore rotation into the shot. We don't see pitchers and quarterbacks stand facing the target and then try to throw hard out of that position. They normally step forward into the throw allowing the hips and shoulders to turn sideways before snapping forward into position.
Also, I don't consider the forehand and the serve similar shots. I've never understood people who do. FHs are not overhand throwing motions.
oserver
Professional
Agree with the teaching principles in your comments. It is not the case that all the sudden I can do open grip serves. I can do it because I did the transition long ago from using beginner serve grips to using continental grip to do flat/topspin serve. The racket drop back, edge leading on up/forward swing, shoulder/elbow/wrist pronation before/after the contact point had became the second nature (of course I can still do much better). Based on skills learned from using continental grip serves for many years, by adding more angular movements from lower body to upper body, I can now serve using open grips using similar upper body movements as in serves using continental grip. It is more difficult skill to learn, not an easier one, because one need to engage more muscle power to produce more angular momentum.
I talked the hip muscle issue in previous post. In an article I wrote in LinkedIn page titled "Open Tennis Serves", I had the following - "Lets focus on the left hip muscle for a moment (for the right hander, using platform stance or pin-point stance as an example.) If a server's stance is closed and two feet are lined up with path of the serve (many recreational players do this way), the left hip muscle acts as mainly a support function, not much rotational movement is provided by this muscle. More advanced players take the back feet clockwise further so the left hip also becomes a rotational focus point, contributing to angular momentum generation. This is an advanced movement to apply the proven technology used in open stance ground stroke. If we simplify this using the letter x to represent arms and legs, the cross point as the left hip. In lower level serves the x is rocking back and forth roughly in a flat plane, but the advanced serves the X is rotating while rocking back and forth, the left hip is not just acting as mainly a support, but can provide much needed angular momentum for generating more spin and pace. Apply this principle, when one open the grip (or stance) toward semi-western, your body from toe to fist tend to do more X, less x. This is one of the reason to explain why when I did open tennis serves, I did not serve worse (at least, many times better) than I was using closed stance and grips."
oserver
Professional
If you see my serve images, the only time my shoulder is truly open is at the contact point. Look at the frame 3 - 13, e - k of image B and frame 5 - 12 of image C, you can see I was trying to rotate my right shoulder back as far as I can do (need more training to be able to do more).
Forehand and the serve for sure are not similar shots, but that does not prevent them to share the same principles that make open stance ground stroke so popular, at least for more spin generation. We all know how important the spin is in serve. If one does not have the height of Cilic, no chance to compete with tall guys pace wise. Even Cilic has to do kick serve on second serve (a few on first serve too yesterday).
I do not have all the answers for this forehand vs serve similarity/dissimilarity issue. I'm in learning mode too, hoping to gain new knowledge each day by doing/experimenting. Hope someone more techy can chip in.
Pancake grip serves have been around for ever, and have been "validated" as far as being effective for kids and recreational players who can't or won't progress to higher level tennis with a conti grip serve. You haven't stumbled on to anything new. Have any 6 year old kid pick up a racquet and serve. Have any 3.0 lady or lad at the club do the same. It's all variations of the pancake grip serve. Why you think its some newly discovered magic sauce is beyond me.
oserver
Professional
My serve video has this title "Open Tennis Serve Practice（with open Stance & open grip)", unintentional suggesting I used open grip from start to finish. Any sharp eyed viewer can spot something otherwise?
If so, who can tell at what point I started using open grip, and before that point, what grip I was using (to "pancake" the ball as some posters here prefer to call it.)
If so, who can tell at what point I started using open grip, and before that point, what grip I was using (to "pancake" the ball as some posters here prefer to call it.)
tennisfan100
New User
Edge leading of the racqet, the edge leads and the racquet face should be perpendicular to the ground. From what I can see of your images, the face is already open at about 45 degrees to the ground. B8 you see the edge, but edge only should be seen directly behind. B9-10, racquet face isn't clear. BI isn't visible. BJ, the racquet face is open at about 45 degrees from the ground. C9/10 , face isn't clear.
Holding a forehand grip makes it difficult to lead with the edge. To lead with the edge holding forehand grip, you have to fight the natural wrist layback position. You're orienting your knuckles to be facing up. All this puts unnecessary strain on your hand, wrist and arm.
If you're doing it naturally with forehand grip, your edge won't be leading. The face of the racquet isn't going up perpendicular to the ground. The face of the racquet is open all the way.
The amount of pronation you're getting is 60-90 degrees. With a continental grip, you'd get 180 degrees of pronation. At B16/17, if you pronated completely from contact point, your racquet face should be pointing to your right. But it's pointing back at you.
dominikk1985
Legend
I still don't agree with the open grip.
with the conti grip the ISR/pronation will rotate the racketface straight into the ball for a flat serve.
if you use a more extreme BH grip you will slightly brush the outside/top of the ball for top/slice
with the open grip the racket will brush the inside of the ball hitting a reverse slice. so if you want to hit a reverse slice (which is basically the same axis of rotation like a topspin FH) the open grip indeed creates more spin but it will probably generate less pace or top.
so if you want to hit a lot of reverse slice the open grip might be good but otherwise no so much. Do you like to hit reverse slice serves?
with the conti grip the ISR/pronation will rotate the racketface straight into the ball for a flat serve.
if you use a more extreme BH grip you will slightly brush the outside/top of the ball for top/slice
with the open grip the racket will brush the inside of the ball hitting a reverse slice. so if you want to hit a reverse slice (which is basically the same axis of rotation like a topspin FH) the open grip indeed creates more spin but it will probably generate less pace or top.
so if you want to hit a lot of reverse slice the open grip might be good but otherwise no so much. Do you like to hit reverse slice serves?
oserver
Professional
Agree with you that edge leading is natural for continental grip, not for open grips. But I'll argue that pronation is not natural for continental grip too, but more natural for open grips. Why players have hard time switch from open grip to continental grip? It is not the edge leading thing making it hard; it's the pronation part. We all go through this at one time but who can say this is a done deal, not more need for improvement. For recreational players, we still cannot do the pronation part like the way professional players do. Why? Because it is a trained skill. I still cannot delay the pronation (or open up the racket face from edge leading phase) so the wrist of shoulder/elbow/wrist can be more forceful using #2 grip. That carries me over when I do open grips. Everybody can drop the racket back and hit the ball on the leading edge of the racket head using continental grip. Any way, just like the pronation is a trained skill for #2 grip, edge leading thing can also be trained in open grips. I have a comparison serve images that compare my #2 grip serve with my # 3.5 grip. Look for two serves on image D. Both images are come from the video I initially posted (also keep in mind that the #2 grip frames are a result of 7 years of training but the # 3.5 grip frames are a result of just two month training) -
http://www.tennis-points.com/photos.html
Another point about the edge leading in open grips - if one uses the natural way to drop the racket back and makes the up/forward swing without insisting on edge leading, the result is the slower racket speed due to the resistance of the air. On the other hand, the pronation range will be bigger. The final result depends on the balance of pros and cons of each, that is another thing need open debate. It is also possible some player can do one way better and others can do another way better.
Maybe that's how a lot of new inventions are created...
Guys not satisfied with the status quo, or who just can't quite get the hang of things the way they are.
So, instead of learning how to deal with current events, they sit around like a scientist and CREATE new ways of doing the same old things.
Sometimes it works for them, and for other's also.
Sometimes, it don't.
Guys not satisfied with the status quo, or who just can't quite get the hang of things the way they are.
So, instead of learning how to deal with current events, they sit around like a scientist and CREATE new ways of doing the same old things.
Sometimes it works for them, and for other's also.
Sometimes, it don't.
dominikk1985
Legend
sometimes it works (dick fosbury), usually it doesn't. of course every once in a while something revolutionary comes from guys who ignore the "do what the best players do" but in most cases it does not work.
open grip serves have been tried by any beginning tennis player and it is probably not something that is going to revolutionize tennis. but if you want to try it...
oserver
Professional
More than 95% of patents did not commercialized successfully. One can say they are the waste of efforts and money. But who knows out of the 5% or less that did succeed, how many of them were benefited from those failed one because they provided the valuable knowledge pool to be based on.
You are right open grip serves have been tried by many beginning tennis players, the pancake way. That is not a nail in the coffin. I saw an image of beating a dead horse here. I guess the open stance/grip will not be a "pronounced dead on arrival" thing. What I had been trying was using the advanced ways (that I could master) to do it. I'm far from being a perfect starter. A guy/girl on the tours will be much better so people will think twice to call them pancake thrower.
dominikk1985
Legend
if you want to do an open stance serve I would recommend doing it like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88
That's the thing. It is proven every day on thousands of courts around the world. Pancake grip serves only take a player so far. Not because they don't "stick with it", but because there is a better way. You're chasing your tail.
Look, there's nothing wrong with saying, "this is where I'm at, it works for me, and I can play pretty good this way," rather than try and justify it as better. There is a reason players on tour don't serve this way. Not because they don't try it, but because it's too limiting.
Oserver, your ideas are unsubstantiated and incorrect in my view.
There have been successful servers that use open "feet" but I have never seen a world class serve that used open hips/shoulders. Even the good servers who use open feet, get good core/shoulder rotation. This is consistent with all powerful throwing motions such as pitching a baseball in that the pitcher uses A LARGE AMOUNT OF CORE ROTATION TO THROW WITH POWER. I have NEVER seen an exception to this.
Also, the geometry of serving requires spin production. A person shorter than 5' 8" tall cannot physically hit a dead straight line serve that lands in the box. Will Hamilton of FuzzyYellowBalls.com has graphs depicting his service ball flight path and John Isner's path. Will at 5' 8" can land a straight line serve on the service line. Isner can land his serve 7' inside the box. So, the average American male is about 5' 9". That means if you don't bend your serve in the air, you can clear the net by about 1/16 of an inch and get your serve to land roughly on the line. This is a totally unrealistic margin of error so the solution is to SPIN the ball to get it to bend into the court. The continental grip in its variations lends itself to spin generation which makes it the best service grip. Conti grip is best grip for swinging up on edge and for swiping up and across ball.
Also, you ask what is the difference in open grip and stances for serves vs forehands. A SW grip for a forehand is a "closed" grip as it tends to cause the player to attack the ball with the leading edge and to have a slightly closed racket face on contact. But, on the serve, a conti or EBH grip is a "closed" grip as it tends to cause the player to attach the ball with the leading edge and to have a slightly closed racket face on contact. Also, open stance FH is still hit with core and shoulders closing and then rotating back to open during the forward swing. Same with a serve, the core and shoulder must close on a serve - almost all good serves should the receiver a portion of their back before they start the forward swing.
In a nutshell, your theories are out in right field and not founded in reality. But, it is a free world so knock yourself out with your open stance and open grip serve. My opinion is most rec players that want to serve 70 mph or faster with any hope of consistency and placement should adopt a closed core and conti flavored grip and ignore you open theories.
There have been successful servers that use open "feet" but I have never seen a world class serve that used open hips/shoulders. Even the good servers who use open feet, get good core/shoulder rotation. This is consistent with all powerful throwing motions such as pitching a baseball in that the pitcher uses A LARGE AMOUNT OF CORE ROTATION TO THROW WITH POWER. I have NEVER seen an exception to this.
Also, the geometry of serving requires spin production. A person shorter than 5' 8" tall cannot physically hit a dead straight line serve that lands in the box. Will Hamilton of FuzzyYellowBalls.com has graphs depicting his service ball flight path and John Isner's path. Will at 5' 8" can land a straight line serve on the service line. Isner can land his serve 7' inside the box. So, the average American male is about 5' 9". That means if you don't bend your serve in the air, you can clear the net by about 1/16 of an inch and get your serve to land roughly on the line. This is a totally unrealistic margin of error so the solution is to SPIN the ball to get it to bend into the court. The continental grip in its variations lends itself to spin generation which makes it the best service grip. Conti grip is best grip for swinging up on edge and for swiping up and across ball.
Also, you ask what is the difference in open grip and stances for serves vs forehands. A SW grip for a forehand is a "closed" grip as it tends to cause the player to attack the ball with the leading edge and to have a slightly closed racket face on contact. But, on the serve, a conti or EBH grip is a "closed" grip as it tends to cause the player to attach the ball with the leading edge and to have a slightly closed racket face on contact. Also, open stance FH is still hit with core and shoulders closing and then rotating back to open during the forward swing. Same with a serve, the core and shoulder must close on a serve - almost all good serves should the receiver a portion of their back before they start the forward swing.
In a nutshell, your theories are out in right field and not founded in reality. But, it is a free world so knock yourself out with your open stance and open grip serve. My opinion is most rec players that want to serve 70 mph or faster with any hope of consistency and placement should adopt a closed core and conti flavored grip and ignore you open theories.
oserver
Professional
The young lady demoed semi-open stance serves. Better knee bending, wider shoulder rotation and fluent overall serve than I could do (at an age maybe over four time more than her, no hope my body can be that flexible anymore).
It will be interesting to know if she still keeping this form. Her coach on this video was perhaps the most open minded coach in terms of serve stance. He did not try to label the form "incorrect" and ask her to switch to a pin-point stance. How many coach could do that? Seeing this video give me more encouragement for my open stance project (now open grip too).
WildVolley
Legend
She's hitting from a pinpoint stance.
Stance is one thing… "open" (pancake) grip is another thing altogether. Since you insist on arguing that it's got potential - good luck with that.
oserver
Professional
Now I have something other than just talking or posting practice videos. Our 40+ mixed 7.0 played norCal sectional yesterday and Friday with a 2-1 result (second place in our group). I played two matches, one two sets win and one loss with super-tie. I kept all my serve games except one, all using open stance and open grip (#3 1/2 - my forehand grip between eastern forehand and semi-western grips.)
We went to 2013 18+ mixed 7.0 sectional also. I played three matches with 2 win one loss. I was using pin-point stance and continental grip serve then.
So I consider these big changes in both stance and grip this year with short switching time frame (practice new open stances since late March and open grips for less than three months) a success story at club level. At least, I can say that my new forms were battle tested at higher level beyond the local district. Now I have more reasons to keep going, no switching back for just being conventional
Captain Ron
Professional
Congrats and glad it is working for you.
I don't think this is something for others to emulate. Lots of things can be successful at 3.5 level I know someone with a very effective underhand serve at that level. Would never recommend building your game around such unless you have a permanent injury.
Good luck but I'll stick to stodgie traditional serve techniques.
I don't think this is something for others to emulate. Lots of things can be successful at 3.5 level I know someone with a very effective underhand serve at that level. Would never recommend building your game around such unless you have a permanent injury.
Good luck but I'll stick to stodgie traditional serve techniques.
oserver
Professional
Don't worry, so far no one I know try to do the same thing as I do. Some may try stance change, but open grip (non-beginning serve) will be too much, I guess.
By the way, I'm 4.0 playing with a 3.0 lady for those sectionals.
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Is this and Eastern FH grip or a SW fh grip?
If its Eastern FH then I can see that part being OK.
Heck I always thought Becker used that and I can hit flat serves and even kickers with that grip. Not sure I get the "no pronation" comments. Sure it might not be as much as a conti, but you CAN do it pretty well.
If you want me to hit my fastest serve I'll use that EFH grip. Hit a down the T ace today. Was just hitting the 60mph kickers mostly and lets just say they had no clue I could hit with that much pace.
But the open stance? That one is hard to swallow....
If its Eastern FH then I can see that part being OK.
Heck I always thought Becker used that and I can hit flat serves and even kickers with that grip. Not sure I get the "no pronation" comments. Sure it might not be as much as a conti, but you CAN do it pretty well.
If you want me to hit my fastest serve I'll use that EFH grip. Hit a down the T ace today. Was just hitting the 60mph kickers mostly and lets just say they had no clue I could hit with that much pace.
But the open stance? That one is hard to swallow....
oserver
Professional
I can do it with both Eastern FH grip or a SW fh grip, but use #3 1/2 grip simply because my forehand grip is the same, so I don't need to change grip between my serve and next forehand shot. I saw Becker used #2 plus grip (but not #2 1/2 grip or more) to serve. I agree with you, some people don't like unconventional stuff and will simply label it "no pronation" or "pancake serve". Open grips actually are more kick serve friendly than many people think. I'll do one or two kick serve videos.
Looking back, I don't think I would change to open grip serves without doing open stances first. Open stances made it natural for using open grips even through you can do open grips with closed stances. As I said before, we can use seemingly "beginner stances" or "beginner grips" to do advance serves, breaking the myths about the serve stances and serve grips.
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
3 1/2 grip? Is that the bevels you are talking about?
My handles are pretty square and 2,4,6,8 are really small. I get terms like SW and EFH but 3 1/2 is harder to follow...
If you are doing vids you need to let us see the WHOLE court.
oserver
Professional
3 1/2 grip is half way between eastern forehand grip (#3) and semi-western grip (#4), more or less on the edge between bevels.
