Servebotting era?

#1
Average aces per match on grass:

in bold players who reached their best ranking in the last 10 years

1) Karlovic
2) Isner
3) Kyrgios

4) Ivanisevic
5) Raonic
6) Philippoussis
7) Anderson
8) Arthurs
9) Querrey
10) Goellner
11) Muller
12) Krajicek
13) Ljubicic
14) Lopez
15) Almagro

16) Roddick
17) Gulbis
18) Sampras
19) Cilic
20) Tsonga
21) Jarry

22) Rosset
23) Pouille
24) Khachanov

25) Rusedski
26) Gambill
27) Brown
28) Ancic
29) Chardy
30) Martin
31) Soderling
32) Fish
33) Tiafoe
34) Struff

35) Enqvist
36) Becker
37) Forget
38) Gonzalez
39) Monfils
40) Dolgopolov
41) Berdych
42) Shapovalov
43) Troicki
44) Paire
45) Krajinovic
46) Pospisil
47) Tsitsipas

48) Safin
49) Wawrinka
50) Dodig
51) Federer

52) Mirnyi
53) Mahut
54) Becker
55) Haase

56) Stich
57) Johansson
58) Del Potro
59) Verdasco

60) Stark
61) Wessels
62) Matsuoka
63) Holm
64) Johnson
65) Murray

66) Korda
67) Medvedev
68) Hanescu
69) Petzschner
70) Dimitrov
71) Dancevic

72) Carlsen
73) Marterer
74) Zverev
75) Llodra
76) Tomic

77) Thiem
78) Malisse
79) Djokovic
80) Tipsarevic


Big Four are not servebot, true, but the rest of matches is boring servebotting? What's coming after them? :eek::oops:
 
#2
Average aces per match on grass:

in bold players who reached their best ranking in the last 10 years

1) Karlovic
2) Isner
3) Kyrgios

4) Ivanisevic
5) Raonic
6) Philippoussis
7) Anderson
8) Arthurs
9) Querrey
10) Goellner
11) Muller
12) Krajicek
13) Ljubicic
14) Lopez
15) Almagro

16) Roddick
17) Gulbis
18) Sampras
19) Cilic
20) Tsonga
21) Jarry

22) Rosset
23) Pouille
24) Khachanov

25) Rusedski
26) Gambill
27) Brown
28) Ancic
29) Chardy
30) Martin
31) Soderling
32) Fish
33) Tiafoe
34) Struff

35) Enqvist
36) Becker
37) Forget
38) Gonzalez
39) Monfils
40) Dolgopolov
41) Berdych
42) Shapovalov
43) Troicki
44) Paire
45) Krajinovic
46) Pospisil
47) Tsitsipas

48) Safin
49) Wawrinka
50) Dodig
51) Federer

52) Mirnyi
53) Mahut
54) Becker
55) Haase

56) Stich
57) Johansson
58) Del Potro
59) Verdasco

60) Stark
61) Wessels
62) Matsuoka
63) Holm
64) Johnson
65) Murray

66) Korda
67) Medvedev
68) Hanescu
69) Petzschner
70) Dimitrov
71) Dancevic

72) Carlsen
73) Marterer
74) Zverev
75) Llodra
76) Tomic
77) Thiem

78) Malisse
79) Djokovic
80) Tipsarevic


Big Four are not servebot, true, but the rest of matches is boring servebotting? What's coming after them? :eek::oops:
What the heck is federer doing in servebot list???
 
#3
Average aces per match on grass:

in bold players who reached their best ranking in the last 10 years

1) Karlovic
2) Isner
3) Kyrgios

4) Ivanisevic
5) Raonic
6) Philippoussis
7) Anderson
8) Arthurs
9) Querrey
10) Goellner
11) Muller
12) Krajicek
13) Ljubicic
14) Lopez
15) Almagro

16) Roddick
17) Gulbis
18) Sampras
19) Cilic
20) Tsonga
21) Jarry

22) Rosset
23) Pouille
24) Khachanov

25) Rusedski
26) Gambill
27) Brown
28) Ancic
29) Chardy
30) Martin
31) Soderling
32) Fish
33) Tiafoe
34) Struff

35) Enqvist
36) Becker
37) Forget
38) Gonzalez
39) Monfils
40) Dolgopolov
41) Berdych
42) Shapovalov
43) Troicki
44) Paire
45) Krajinovic
46) Pospisil
47) Tsitsipas

48) Safin
49) Wawrinka
50) Dodig
51) Federer

52) Mirnyi
53) Mahut
54) Becker
55) Haase

56) Stich
57) Johansson
58) Del Potro
59) Verdasco

60) Stark
61) Wessels
62) Matsuoka
63) Holm
64) Johnson
65) Murray

66) Korda
67) Medvedev
68) Hanescu
69) Petzschner
70) Dimitrov
71) Dancevic

72) Carlsen
73) Marterer
74) Zverev
75) Llodra
76) Tomic
77) Thiem

78) Malisse
79) Djokovic
80) Tipsarevic


Big Four are not servebot, true, but the rest of matches is boring servebotting? What's coming after them? :eek::oops:
Again The Liar Lew cherry-picking stats to create myths....
....
 
#12
Why?

I took one surface to avoid stats skewed by players skipping one surface.

The other option was hardcourt.
HC has a lot of different speeds. AO surface plays different from USO etc. Using HC would be quite good to see who is an actual serve bot. On grass the serve is more effective anyway. That's the way I see it though.
 
#13
HC has a lot of different speeds. AO surface plays different from USO etc. Using HC would be quite good to see who is an actual serve bot. On grass the serve is more effective anyway. That's the way I see it though.
Grass was more effective for players of the past too. The comparison is between present and past.
 
#14
Hardcourt:

1. Karlovic (no.14)
2. Isner (no.8)

3. Arthurs (no.44)
4. Raonic (no.3)
5. Johansson (no.9)
6. Groth (no.53)
7. Guccione
8. Kyrgios (no.13)
9. Muller (no.21)


By 'servebotting era' I don't mean servebots are dominating, but the serve has become more influent and big servers are getting it easier to make it to the top.
 
#15
The actual top-10s served an average of 10.1 aces per match in the last year.

It's quite high, a player with 10.1 aces per match would rank no.32 of all time, above players like Janowicz, Todd Martin, Rosset and Norman.
 
#16
Tour wide serve numbers have definitely gone up compared to say the 90's and early 00's pre poly. Not sure when the upwards trend began, it's just common knowledge for many that serve points won and hold games etc...are higher than they used to be.

Never seen an indepth analysis about it though.
 
#17
Grass was more effective for players of the past too. The comparison is between present and past.
Fair enough,

Fed's serve is a bit mediocre regarding aces on grass lol.

Even Tsonga owns him. But I guess aces isn't the only metric that reflects the quality of ones serve.

Karlovic as a number one was expected as IMO he has the best serve ever.
 
#18
Why?

I took one surface to avoid stats skewed by players skipping one surface.

The other option was hardcourt.
Because sample sizes. Grass sample sizes are absolutely tiny for many players and can easily be skewed by a few long matches.

Also, you try to make a link between ace count peak ranking, so it doesn't make sense to look at the ace count of the surface where they play the least
 
#19
Tour wide serve numbers have definitely gone up compared to say the 90's and early 00's pre poly. Not sure when the upwards trend began, it's just common knowledge for many that serve points won and hold games etc...are higher than they used to be.

Never seen an indepth analysis about it though.
Somebody should really get on that if we can get enough match stats. Would be a fun exercise
 
#20
Somebody should really get on that if we can get enough match stats. Would be a fun exercise
Wish the ATP data was public, some of it is garbage with mistakes but it would be great to play around with.

Not really into the maths side of stats (lol) but I'm wondering if randomly sampling 20 or so players from the top 100 each year or something and comparing some serving metrics would be enough. Ideally I'd want the whole top 100 but that would be a mission...
 
#21
Wish the ATP data was public, some of it is garbage with mistakes but it would be great to play around with.

Not really into the maths side of stats (lol) but I'm wondering if randomly sampling 20 or so players from the top 100 each year or something and comparing some serving metrics would be enough. Ideally I'd want the whole top 100 but that would be a mission...
Something like that.

I'd love to have
- surface speed stats
- rally length stat - they do collect data on that but never release that
- winners/ue counts
- unreturnables%
- ace%


Then I think you can just pool data per surface and look at the stats, and there's all kinds of things you can do with the analysis. As for the serve I'd probably look at the stats on clay because that surface has probably been the most consistent over the years.
 
#22
@NatF I'm just playing around with the clay serve numbers right now

1995 was the first year any player averaged over 10 aces/match on clay

In the last 52 weeks there were 7 players averaging over 10 aces/match with Isner serving almost 22 aces per match.

Which brings me to also really consider player height in the equation
 
#23
Tour wide serve numbers have definitely gone up compared to say the 90's and early 00's pre poly. Not sure when the upwards trend began, it's just common knowledge for many that serve points won and hold games etc...are higher than they used to be.

Never seen an indepth analysis about it though.
Do you think this has to do with poly?

Or, is poly just correlated with the slowing of the court surfaces, which might give servebots better footing and more time to set up on a weak return of their serve?
 
#24
Something like that.

I'd love to have
- surface speed stats
- rally length stat - they do collect data on that but never release that
- winners/ue counts
- unreturnables%
- ace%


Then I think you can just pool data per surface and look at the stats, and there's all kinds of things you can do with the analysis. As for the serve I'd probably look at the stats on clay because that surface has probably been the most consistent over the years.
The closest thing to that is probably tennisabstracts match charting project - you can download it I think. But it's a work in progress and is heavily skewed towards big 4 matches so far.

But yeah they've basically got a treasure trove of stats which just isn't accessible. Hopefully one day one of those hacking scandals will hit the ATP and the flood gates will open...

@NatF I'm just playing around with the clay serve numbers right now

1995 was the first year any player averaged over 10 aces/match on clay

In the last 52 weeks there were 7 players averaging over 10 aces/match with Isner serving almost 22 aces per match.

Which brings me to also really consider player height in the equation
Nuts.

One thing I've noticed looking match stats is that clay seemed to change around 2009, big jump in terms of hold games and more winners/less unforced errors IIRC.

Do you think this has to do with poly?

Or, is poly just correlated with the slowing of the court surfaces, which might give servebots better footing and more time to set up on a weak return of their serve?
Definitely does. With poly you can serve bigger more consistently.
 
#27
Definitely does. With poly you can serve bigger more consistently.
I'm not sure about that - you can theoretically get more spin with poly, yet Sampras (85" racket and nat gut) has the highest measured spin on a serve to my knowledge.

Nat gut is more powerful.

Pete (6'1") and Goran served consistently huge with nat gut!
 
#32
It's really interesting how the game is evolving. In general, big serving has become less effective since the 90's after Ivanisevic, Sampras, and Rafter. In the 2000's up till recently, tennis was getting dominated by the physical, endurance-oriented baseline game of Hewitt, Safin and later Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray. Federer kept the old style aggressive game alive, but he was more of an outlier compared to the other top players.
With this trend in mind, the emergence of so many big servers in the last 3 years is certainly intriguing, but I don't see it as a game changer. The next gen are for the most part not serve-bots, with Zverev being an exception.
 
#33
Apparently if you have a good serve, it is now viewed as an abomination. It must be PC to be a pusher these days. Pathetic! Long live the cannon, beotches!
Federer undeniably has an extremely powerful serve. "Servebot" implies they can only serve and do nothing else, like Isner, Karlovic, or Roddick. Federer has a great forehand and the best net game in the ATP.

So including Federer in the big server list is accurate.
 
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