Servemotion - tips and trick

Tenniscyprus

New User
Hi!

A while ago i posted a thread where you guys gave me a number of great tips in regard to my serve-motion which i got from posting this video: Serve1

I have made som changes to my motion which you can view here:Serve2

I have made great progress but still lack in consistency finding power, can rarely feel the
”sling-shot” feel, any ideas?

Thanks!
 

nyta2

Legend
serve motion looks good. personally it just takes alot of reps to coord/sync all my power sources. staying loose helps me feel how to "throw the racquet" faster and faster.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
serve motion looks good. personally it just takes alot of reps to coord/sync all my power sources. staying loose helps me feel how to "throw the racquet" faster and faster.
Mouratoglu also shows that a relxed wrist adds power and can target spots.
 
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pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
I actually say the opposite, the more loose you grip the more it is hard to really accelerate. The problem in my opinion is you over-rotate before contact, try to not do that, one way is to do a slower version, and see your racquet contact point and what your body balance look like on that specific (best effort).

Mouratoglu is not saying to be completely loose grip. He only say to loose your wrist.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I actually say the opposite, the more loose you grip the more it is hard to really accelerate. The problem in my opinion is you over-rotate before contact, try to not do that, one way is to do a slower version, and see your racquet contact point and what your body balance look like on that specific (best effort).

Mouratoglu is not saying to be completely loose grip. He only say to loose your wrist.
He is doing a flick...
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The serve needs to be recorded at high speed, say, 240 fps. Also, the video has to stop and single frame to analyze the video. The image of the server should be larger. Youtube is free and has single frame playback.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
The serve needs to be recorded at high speed, say, 240 fps. Also, the video has to stop and single frame to analyze the video. The image of the server should be larger. Youtube is free and has single frame playback.
Yes, Youtube shorts are a PITA and require downloading to have a chance of seeing what's going on with frame advancing (which I did in your case). A nice motion, but the tossing arm never gets close to fully extended, and that's the first thing I'd work on.

While what Chas wrote is ideal, if you have a phone that does 60fps that will still work just fine, but you really need to adjust that camera angle so that it is up higher, and make sure you use horizontal mode (YT shorts convert everything to vertical so I don't know about the original upload).

Mouratoglu is not saying to be completely loose grip. He only say to loose your wrist.
Loose wrist, strong fingers. That's the way to go imo.


 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Yes, Youtube shorts are a PITA and require downloading to have a chance of seeing what's going on with frame advancing (which I did in your case). A nice motion, but the tossing arm never gets close to fully extended, and that's the first thing I'd work on.

While what Chas wrote is ideal, if you have a phone that does 60fps that will still work just fine, but you really need to adjust that camera angle so that it is up higher, and make sure you use horizontal mode (YT shorts convert everything to vertical so I don't know about the original upload).


Loose wrist, strong fingers. That's the way to go imo.



You are not correct about 60 fps.

60 fps is one frame every 16.7 milliseconds. 1 sec / 60 frame/sec
(Note- you can use the Google search box as a calculator, type in 1/60 and get 0.01666...)

ISR on the serve, from start to impact, lasts only about 25 ms +/- 5 ms. That's the most important sub-motion of the serve and we can observe it by pointing our smartphones at it set at 240 fps.

With 16.7 ms between frames, you usually get only one or two frames during the most important acceleration of the racket head. At 240 fps, you get one frame every 4.3 ms - that's adequate for the serve.

Here is the service motion with barely adequate frame rate because it just happened to catch impact and 2 frames before impact, but not the start of ISR. Looking at 7 such frames shows what goes on for most serves well.

This shows 3 frames from ISR start to impact, more than you can possibly get with 60 fps.
images


With 60 fps, taking one or two frames wastes a lot of people's time and leads to believing anything you want to believe because frames are missing. That is why they make video cameras that record at 240 fps.

60 fps is useful on ground strokes but details always need to be confirmed with higher speed video.

Note 240 fps is not adequate for viewing ball-string interactions.

Are you certain or uncertain that there is more false information on the internet than true information? And the false information may be growing faster in 2022.

I've spelled this frame rate issue out on the forum many times so why don't you think about whether you are spreading false information to some readers, who in turn...........

SEARCH_FRAME_RATE
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
The serve needs to be recorded at high speed, say, 240 fps. Also, the video has to stop and single frame to analyze the video. The image of the server should be larger. Youtube is free and has single frame playback.
EVERYONE can see what youtube videos show. Any appearing details they wanna see. Yet very few people get the serve or can implement the serve anywhere close to the videos.


Why is that?

(It's rather pointless to keep on referring to videos.)
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
You are not correct about 60 fps.
And I believe it is you that is in error!

<begin_monologue>
I was quite clear on my position. Is it your position that all meaningful serve analysis requires 240fps? That seems to be your assertion, and if so it is simply wrong and easily falsifiable. 60fps can identify many serve flaws; from a very high toss, a poor racquet drop, a waiter's tray error, a low elbow at or around trophy position, a tossing arm that isn't raised properly, and an incorrect grip, to name but a few. That would still make 60fps a rather valuable tool for those that don't have the magic 240 number available to them. To suggest that, just because frames are missing (when aren't they?) one can believe anything they want, is a red herring, and you have proven this yourself by making observations and interpretations based on 480p @ 30fps, right here:


At lower frame rates, analysis should be limited to the frames that are visible, and I never suggested otherwise, but I didn't think that needed mentioning.

[..]I've spelled this frame rate issue out on the forum many times so why don't you think about whether you are spreading false information to some readers, who in turn...........[..]
This is a major edit:
Once again, if it is spreading false information to suggest a 60fps video can be useful for the purposes of a serve analysis, then how did you manage to reach your conclusions in the above serve critique thread, based on much lesser quality? There are several more examples on these forums where you offer an analysis of videos filmed at 30fps.
<does_not_compute/>

The problem as I see it is this: your beginning premise appears to be that every serve, no matter what the level or how many technical flaws it may have, requires, or at least benefits greatly from a detailed analysis of ISR. I asked that question above but the answer seems to be a resounding yes. The articles you cite - in particular the Marshall & Elliot article on long axis rotation, which finds ISR as the major contributor to racquet head speed on the high level serve - say nothing about how deliberate this ISR actually is. While the ISR contribution itself is undoubtedly a scientific fact, note that it is also based on an analysis of the aforementioned high level serve. That analysis in no way, shape, or form tells you how to develop a high level serve.

Based on your first premise above, you then proceed to the next logical step; which is to claim that high speed video is an essential part of this process, and since 60fps can't adequately identify ISR (true enough) it is therefore useless for any meaningful serve analysis (a waste of time, or wasting time, were your words I believe). That however assumes your first premise is correct, and as you may have noticed, not everyone (including myself) agrees with that assessment, which is why you get so much pushback on your ad nauseam "high speed video ISR" pontifications.

And herein lies the problem; to me it is not logical to take the most significant contributor of racquet head speed from a high level serve (something that isn't even referenced as a conscious act), and then attempt to apply a detailed analysis of that single feature to each and every amateur serve that happens to come through the door, especially those with quite obvious technical flaws. Flaws that don't need 240fps to identify. It is my belief that the 8 stage serve model by Kovacs and Ellenbecker is an excellent tool for evaluating the tennis serve at all levels (where ISR is briefly mentioned as a key part of the contact phase, and also recognised as the key power contributor, along with wrist flexion). It covers and outlines many aspects that can be examined and compared to a high level serve using frame rates that don't require high speed video.

Is it not possible that as a serve begins to develop and take shape at a lower level, as certain aspects of the 8 stage model are successfully implemented, by getting the tossing arm up nice and high, by reaching a strong trophy position, and by learning to throw the racquet at the ball while correctly timing the leg drive, that ISR begins to appear as a result of these things rather than a forced act? Higher level serves that are in the minority would certainly be better served with 240fps, and I never argued against that either (for the record).

That is my argument against why 240fps is a requirement, and perhaps you might want to reflect on that, while peering through the looking glass.

</end_monologue>
And now, back to your regular viewing experience.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
And I believe it is you that is in error!

<begin_monologue>
I was quite clear on my position, which you somehow associate with spreading false information. Is it your position that all meaningful analysis requires 240fps? That seems to be your assertion, and if so it is simply wrong and easily falsifiable. 60fps can identify many serve flaws; from a very high toss, a poor racquet drop, a waiter's tray error, a low elbow at or around trophy position, a tossing arm that isn't raised properly, and an incorrect grip, to name but a few. That would still make 60fps a rather valuable tool for those that don't have the magic 240 number available to them. To suggest that, just because frames are missing (when aren't they?) one can believe anything they want, is a red herring, and you have proven this yourself by making observations and interpretations based on 480p @ 30fps, right here:


At lower frame rates, analysis should be limited to the frames that are visible, and I never suggested otherwise, so I assume I wasn't being strawmanned.
</end_monologue>


Edit: Once again, if it is spreading false information to suggest a 60fps video can be useful for the purposes of a serve analysis, then how did you manage to reach your conclusions in the above serve critique thread, based on much lesser quality? There are several more examples on these forums where you offer an analysis of videos filmed at 30fps.
<does_not_compute/>
Perhaps you might want to reflect on that, while peering through the looking glass.

And now, back to your regular viewing.

60 fps is not "just fine" for the serve's fastest motions. 240 fps is just fine for the serve's fastest motions. Many video users don't understand that the faster the motion, the higher the framing rate needs to be. The sampling rate of 60 fps is too slow for the faster motions of the serve.

A clear video of the shadows at the elbow during ISR shows that it's not forearm pronation, it's ISR. This garbage discussion goes on and on for decades. Very few free instructional videos show what is true regarding the serve, 5%? Is there any technical problem getting the pronation vs ISR issue straight for the serve? No, it's in videos.

2022 is long enough for a stew of true and false information about tennis strokes where many things are obviously true or false once clear high speed videos are recorded and viewed.

Readers, you are in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse, and it's 2022 with many people having an excellent high speed video capability on their phones! And there is good advice on what to look at and even better research results are available. Vs what creditable information saying otherwise?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What is whack-a-mole a metaphor for?

The term "Whac-a-mole" (or "Whack-a-mole") is used colloquially to depict a situation characterized by a series of repetitious and futile tasks, where the successful completion of one just yields another popping up elsewhere."
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Ten years ago.
For stroke analysis 200 fps or more.



200 fps or more is a good rate for stroke analysis. The shutter speed should be fast to minimize motion blur so that the racket and ball can be located better.

60 fps with fast shutter speed can be a very useful compromise to video both the whole match and some stroke mechanics. (60p progressive and not 60i interlaced.)

At 240 fps, internal shoulder rotation - a very fast motion of the serve that occurs over about 0.03 seconds - takes just 7 frames. With 60fps you do not get enough frames to understand this motion.

(If you want to calculate the motion between frames and motion blur -
http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435 Reply #1. Also has information on the Jello Effect.)
 

Pumpkin

Professional
Ooh. It's so close to a high level serve. Just a couple of tweaks and you are there. You know already you said a lack of sling shot feel. That's it and it's because the sling shot is not stretched to capacity before release.

Digital Atheist touched on it. The tossing arm is not extending high enough. It is too close to horizontal. Extending the arm up creates a reverse C shape, where there is tension on your left side. Hey presto- sling shot. Mastering this will add significant power.

Secondly, as you launch up with your legs the chest should stretch which isn't happening. I'm not sure why but it could also be a function of the low tossing arm and lack of reverse C. If so you'll kill two birds with one stone. In any event imagine the potential energy you'll be creating as your upper body rolls forward ( which you do beautifully ) and with the chest stretched all that energy being released. The poor ball.

I don't see any issue with how hard you are gripping the racquet.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
.
60 fps is not "just fine" for the serve's fastest motions. 240 fps is just fine for the serve's fastest motions. Many video users don't understand that the faster the motion, the higher the framing rate needs to be. The sampling rate of 60 fps is too slow for the faster motions of the serve.

A clear video of the shadows at the elbow during ISR shows that it's not forearm pronation, it's ISR. This garbage discussion goes on and on for decades. Very few free instructional videos show what is true regarding the serve, 5%? Is there any technical problem getting the pronation vs ISR issue straight for the serve? No, it's in videos.

2022 is long enough for a stew of true and false information about tennis strokes where many things are obviously true or false once clear high speed videos are recorded and viewed.

Readers, you are in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse, and it's 2022 with many people having an excellent high speed video capability on their phones! And there is good advice on what to look at and even better research results are available. Vs what creditable information saying otherwise?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What is whack-a-mole a metaphor for?

The term "Whac-a-mole" (or "Whack-a-mole") is used colloquially to depict a situation characterized by a series of repetitious and futile tasks, where the successful completion of one just yields another popping up elsewhere."
While I often agree with you on various points, this is not one of them. Keep on doing what you are doing, and I will continue to do the same.
 

Niwrad0

Rookie
I think the technical term for what you are referring to is called thoracic extension. But don't quote me on that.
the entire spine has both forwards/backwards as well as left/right as well as rotate left/right motions. In the context of the word 'extension', it would indicate a backwards bend. The thoracic spine however, is quite limited in the forwards/backwards motion relative to the lumbar spine, and generally has the most range of motion in rotation, followed by left/right side bending. Lumbar spine has the most range of motion in flexion/extension, which is often why you feel pain in that region when flexing forward instead of the upper back.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
the entire spine has both forwards/backwards as well as left/right as well as rotate left/right motions. In the context of the word 'extension', it would indicate a backwards bend. The thoracic spine however, is quite limited in the forwards/backwards motion relative to the lumbar spine, and generally has the most range of motion in rotation, followed by left/right side bending. Lumbar spine has the most range of motion in flexion/extension, which is often why you feel pain in that region when flexing forward instead of the upper back.
Not a biomechanical expert, but I believe this is the position Pumpkin was referring to.

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Niwrad0

Rookie
Not a biomechanical expert, but I believe this is the position Pumpkin was referring to.

AM-JKLV6mSscvlt5TX6RpBVjntRpsbAyfx606_f54Del-69ZkO6xozPkwQOeWBMYRCsobTvtBlrk_x4BOgy5cnW0sPPqbk-F5wytmiEQDYiISGE-kjkeAD4DjyW7AbKJUP1NQQg_kRngpk5NBx5sinNx7gdj=w310-h405-no
yeah that's def extension of the whole spine. the way the back muscles work you can't extend only the thoracic spine vs the lumbar spine, that's the main issue I was seeing.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
yeah that's def extension of the whole spine. the way the back muscles work you can't extend only the thoracic spine vs the lumbar spine, that's the main issue I was seeing.
This thread may interest you. Knock yourself out!
 

Niwrad0

Rookie
This thread may interest you. Knock yourself out!
Just read through it. Chas seems be focused on the shoulder joint, which is the most complex joint in the body in terms of range of movement. Not only is it a ball-socket type joint, but its attachment point (the scapula) itself also moves as well to provide even more range of movement. I'm sure he's very interested and wants to learn more, but it's certainly going to take some time to really understand the movements of such a complex joint in the body.

There's one glaring unstated assumption with his argument, which I won't post there but will post here since it's been over a month on that thread:

Chas assumes that muscles travel in a straight line between origin and insertion. When he talks about the back bending backwards, or as stated 'thoracic extension', and in regards to the lat muscle (which is a very large, powerful muscle that powers some motions of the tennis serve), it's like somehow the muscle travels in the air between the arm and the hips, when obviously it travels along the inside of your body even as the spine bends backwards.

Another body part has the exact same layout, the fingers of the hand. The muscles that allow you to grab things with your hand run from the bottom of the wrist up to the tips, but obviously they travel under the skin and not through the space between the origin and insertion point of the muscles.

Additionally, for the same reason that bending backwards involves the whole spine and not isolated segments of the spine is why it's literally impossible to only flex just one joint of your finger. Try bending just the last joint in your index finger without bending the other two joints. The major spine muscles of the back work the same way in thoracic extension.

The only reason why it 'appears' that some people are able to extend isolated parts of their spine is because there's an external force, i.e. the foam roller that is applying an isolated force to just part of the spine.

Edit:

Also for my two cents on the original topic in the thread you linked, the serve motion is complex for one primary reason:

Absolute maximum effort via recruitment of as many muscle groups as possible

The chest, hips, legs all work in harmony, for the ideal tennis serve, to deliver power despite their positions not being optimally positioned to add extra power. For example, how would a beginner tennis player think of using their feet to hit a tennis serve harder? However the fact that more or less every single body part is used in some way, like the feet pushing off the ground slightly, means tennis players are trying to just hit the serve as hard as possible by any means necessary. This was learned through enormous amounts of trial and error, training the body to move in entirely unnatural ways all for a singular purpose.
 
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Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Just read through it. Chas seems be focused on the shoulder joint, which is the most complex joint in the body in terms of range of movement. Not only is it a ball-socket type joint, but its attachment point (the scapula) itself also moves as well to provide even more range of movement. I'm sure he's very interested and wants to learn more, but it's certainly going to take some time to really understand the movements of such a complex joint in the body.

There's one glaring unstated assumption with his argument, which I won't post there but will post here since it's been over a month on that thread:

Chas assumes that muscles travel in a straight line between origin and insertion. When he talks about the back bending backwards, or as stated 'thoracic extension', and in regards to the lat muscle (which is a very large, powerful muscle that powers some motions of the tennis serve), it's like somehow the muscle travels in the air between the arm and the hips, when obviously it travels along the inside of your body even as the spine bends backwards.

Another body part has the exact same layout, the fingers of the hand. The muscles that allow you to grab things with your hand run from the bottom of the wrist up to the tips, but obviously they travel under the skin and not through the space between the origin and insertion point of the muscles.

Additionally, for the same reason that bending backwards involves the whole spine and not isolated segments of the spine is why it's literally impossible to only flex just one joint of your finger. Try bending just the last joint in your index finger without bending the other two joints. The major spine muscles of the back work the same way in thoracic extension.

The only reason why it 'appears' that some people are able to extend isolated parts of their spine is because there's an external force, i.e. the foam roller that is applying an isolated force to just part of the spine.

Edit:

Also for my two cents on the original topic in the thread you linked, the serve motion is complex for one primary reason:

Absolute maximum effort via recruitment of as many muscle groups as possible

The chest, hips, legs all work in harmony, for the ideal tennis serve, to deliver power despite their positions not being optimally positioned to add extra power. For example, how would a beginner tennis player think of using their feet to hit a tennis serve harder? However the fact that more or less every single body part is used in some way, like the feet pushing off the ground slightly, means tennis players are trying to just hit the serve as hard as possible by any means necessary. This was learned through enormous amounts of trial and error, training the body to move in entirely unnatural ways all for a singular purpose.
Might be a good idea to move the above into the aforementioned thread (in order to keep all relevant information in the one area) and I am sure you will get a response or two! I don't know much about the technical terms for a lot of the motions as they relate to the tennis serve, and prefer to stay out of those conversations. But if you haven't read these two documents, I would recommend a quick glance since they might prove useful.

8 Stage model for evaluating the Serve:

Long-axis rotation: the missing link in proximal-to-distal segmental sequencing

Sorry for the thread hijack @Tenniscyprus.
 

xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame

You should utilize your backfoot more if you want power. It's more noticeable for players with a platform stance, but the back knee should be lower than the front knee, which is an effect of loading the back leg more. Also loosening up the shoulder, arm, and hand allows the racket to more freely accelerate with the energy you give it. Aggressively push off the ball of your back foot to initiate the serve.

Your power position is also weak. You're squatting and your shoulders only have a mild tilt to them.
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We want that dominant shoulder down and below the tossing shoulder while the chest points to the sky. Back foot pushes down quickly into the ground, the hitting shoulder shoots up, and the arm comes around like a rope and makes impact with the ball. Everything on the hitting side (knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, hand) should all be lower than their tossing side equivalent.
 

Tenniscyprus

New User
Thank you everyone for the great tips, and no worries hijacking the thread, just makes for even more interesting reading.
Will take notes and try stuff out on my next training session.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
One of the requirement is body tilting. We kinda have to tilt our torso in order to raise our arm higher!

This can be tricky for us rec players because initially we tend to lose balance -- and god forbids we quit trying or modify the tilting, ie no longer tilting.

Nadal's body tilts enough to create a straight line measuring fr shoulder to shoulder to elbow!
-67a7f86a4531f579.jpg
 

Niwrad0

Rookie
One of the requirement is body tilting. We kinda have to tilt our torso in order to raise our arm higher!

This can be tricky for us rec players because initially we tend to lose balance -- and god forbids we quit trying or modify the tilting, ie no longer tilting.

Nadal's body tilts enough to create a straight line measuring fr shoulder to shoulder to elbow!
-67a7f86a4531f579.jpg
Tilt accomplishes two more important things in addition to height
1. reduces shoulder injury by limiting the angle between shoulder and neck
2. allows more of chest (pec muscles) to participate in serve
 
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