Server etiquette disagreement

[Janet Tupper]

I was playing singles. The server missed his first serve on the first point of the game. (called after it bounced + I hit it). It rolled back onto my side of the court. As I gestured + moved over to clear the ball ( clearly unsafe) he didn’t look up, served his second serve from the deuce court & moved to the ad side. It seemed like he was getting ready to serve the next point. I asked what he was doing. He got upset and said “it’s love 15.” Then “it’s love 30”. First, is it fair to expect him to wait & see if his first serve is out of the way before he serves again? Then should he ensure the receiver is ready? We are still disagreeing about this. He’s played regularly for almost 10 years.

 

[Raul_SJ]

The server should always check that the first serve ball is safely cleared before beginning the second serve.
Anyone who has played for more than a few months understands this.

He’s played regularly for almost 10 years.

Do not play with this dunderhead again.

 

[mikej]

Do not play with this dunderhead again.

The appropriate response to nearly every thread on this forum.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I was playing singles. The server missed his first serve on the first point of the game. (called after it bounced + I hit it). It rolled back onto my side of the court. As I gestured + moved over to clear the ball ( clearly unsafe) he didn’t look up, served his second serve from the deuce court & moved to the ad side. It seemed like he was getting ready to serve the next point. I asked what he was doing. He got upset and said “it’s love 15.” Then “it’s love 30”. First, is it fair to expect him to wait & see if his first serve is out of the way before he serves again? Then should he ensure the receiver is ready? We are still disagreeing about this. He’s played regularly for almost 10 years.

The rules say that the receiver plays at the pace of the server but also that the server should wait until the receiver is ready.

Some people are "autistic", not in the disease sense but in the sense that they are self-absorbed and inner-focused to the point of being oblivious to what's going on around them. One guy would pause maybe 2 seconds after missing his 1st serve before starting is 2nd. He played a guy who likes taking a good 7 seconds after a missed 1st serve and to clear a stray ball. They did not make for a good combination.

To me it seems like common sense and courtesy to wait for the receiver to be ready. Maybe if the receiver was deliberately stretching things out to disrupt my rhythm would I get annoyed but clearing a ball is normal.

 

[tonylg]

He got upset and said “it’s love 15.” Then “it’s love 30”.

Do you know how to score? You're up love 30 on his serve? What are you complaining about?

Seriously, what's preventing you from calling out "wait"? The ball you hit is on your side of the court and you want the server to wait, take responsibility and stop blaming someone else.

 

[Dartagnan64]

You returned the first serve, called it out then went to remove it from the court. Depending on how much time you took to do this, you should have offered a first serve since you were the one that put the ball in the unsafe position.

you also didn’t say what happened with his second serve Or whether you took a swing. If you swing at it then you are deemed to be ready. If you are wandering back to your position as the ball hits you on the backside, it’s a let. And should be a first serve as you took extra time to clear a ball that you had struck.

 

[blakesq]

@Dartagnan64 I disagree. Since most matches do not have ball boys, the time to clear a ball between a 1st and 2nd serve does not lead to a "let".

 

[tennis tom]

I was playing singles. The server missed his first serve on the first point of the game. (called after it bounced + I hit it). It rolled back onto my side of the court. As I gestured + moved over to clear the ball ( clearly unsafe) he didn’t look up, served his second serve from the deuce court & moved to the ad side. It seemed like he was getting ready to serve the next point. I asked what he was doing. He got upset and said “it’s love 15.” Then “it’s love 30”. First, is it fair to expect him to wait & see if his first serve is out of the way before he serves again? Then should he ensure the receiver is ready? We are still disagreeing about this. He’s played regularly for almost 10 years.

The server should have looked up and waited for the receiver to be ready--he did not do this. The receiver could have offered to play two--depending on if he interrupted the server's rhythm having caused the ball needing to be retrieved--if the serve is out catch it, hit it to rest safely at the net, or behind to the fence.

 

[Dartagnan64]

@Dartagnan64 I disagree. Since most matches do not have ball boys, the time to clear a ball between a 1st and 2nd serve does not lead to a "let".

depends on how much time you take. if it’s a couple of steps and a quick swish away, I agree. If you saunter to the mid service box, and wander back to your spot, then its a let if and only if the returner was responsible for the ball being in that position.

The code specifically states you are not to hit obviously out serves. So the returner has to take the responsibility for delays that happen because he took a swing at the serve.

 

[princemidplus]

depends on how much time you take. if it’s a couple of steps and a quick swish away, I agree. If you saunter to the mid service box, and wander back to your spot, then its a let if and only if the returner was responsible for the ball being in that position.

The code specifically states you are not to hit obviously out serves. So the returner has to take the responsibility for delays that happen because he took a swing at the serve.

I agree. Similar situation is when a returner hits back an obviously out first serve and it hits the back fence before rolling in front of the server who then has to clear the ball from his side of the court. This disrupts serving rhythm and should be a let and play first serve again.

 

[ollinger]

Tell him to watch some pro tournaments. Players never serve when a ball kid is still clearing a ball.

 

[blakesq]

i still mostly disagree. what if the server hits a first serve thats out, and the returner does not hit the ball, and the ball rolls back on the court, and the returner has to clear the ball ? we don't give a let for that case. So we shouldn't give a let when the returner hits a not obviously out ball.

 

[schmke]

i still mostly disagree. what if the server hits a first serve thats out, and the returner does not hit the ball, and the ball rolls back on the court, and the returner has to clear the ball ? we don't give a let for that case. So we shouldn't give a let when the returner hits a not obviously out ball.

The returner did not cause the delay in this scenario, that is why no let is given. What @Dartagnan64 and @princemidplus both prefaced their comments with was that the returner hit an out serve that caused the delay.

 

[blakesq]

Yeah, but if the serve was close, the returner did nothing wrong, but yet he is being punished by having to give another first serve to the server. If you can show me in the rules where a let is to be given for hitting an out first serve means the server gets a let, I would appreciate it. I cannot find it.

 

[Janet Tupper]

The server should always check that the first serve ball is safely cleared before beginning the second serve. Anyone who has played for more than a few months understands this.



Do not play with this dunderhead again.

Thank you. That’s what I thought.

The server should have looked up and waited for the receiver to be ready-he did not. The receiver could have offered to play two--depending on if he interrupted the server's rhythm having caused the ball to be retrieved.

agree. I took a couple steps to move the ball and was off the court when he served his second serve. Then it seemed like he thought he had an ace.

 

[Janet Tupper]

Yeah, but if the serve was close, the returner did nothing wrong, but yet he is being punished by having to give another first serve to the server. If you can show me in the rules where a let is to be given for hitting an out first serve means the server gets a let, I would appreciate it. I cannot find it.

The serve was out by a couple inches. He didn’t even look up to see if the ball was in a dangerous position on the court or if I was on the court ( I took a couple steps and was on the ad side clearing the ball) when he served again.

 

[Janet Tupper]

The returner did not cause the delay in this scenario, that is why no let is given. What @Dartagnan64 and @princemidplus both prefaced their comments with was that the returner hit an out serve that caused the delay.

The serve was out by a couple inches. He didn’t look up when I moved to the ad side to clear the ball for safety sake and served while I was on the opposite side of the court. Then he moved to the ad side yo serve the second point.

 

[Janet Tupper]

Yeah, but if the serve was close, the returner did nothing wrong, but yet he is being punished by having to give another first serve to the server. If you can show me in the rules where a let is to be given for hitting an out first serve means the server gets a let, I would appreciate it. I cannot find it.

It was quite close. When I took a couple seconds to move to the ad side to clear the ball he served again.

 

[Janet Tupper]

Tell him to watch some pro tournaments. Players never serve when a ball kid is still clearing a ball.

Definitely considerate.

 

[eah123]

@OP Agree with your point of view. Nevertheless it is recreational tennis. So don't let it bother you too much. If you don't enjoy playing with someone anymore, don't do it. Life is too short!

 

[Janet Tupper]

You returned the first serve, called it out then went to remove it from the court. Depending on how much time you took to do this, you should have offered a first serve since you were the one that put the ball in the unsafe position.

you also didn’t say what happened with his second serve Or whether you took a swing. If you swing at it then you are deemed to be ready. If you are wandering back to your position as the ball hits you on the backside, it’s a let. And should be a first serve as you took extra time to clear a ball that you had struck.

The ball was out by a couple inches. I took a couple steps and a couple seconds to move over to the ad side and move the ball. He didn’t look up & served while I was on the other side of the court. I think he should have served his second serve again.

 

[esgee48]

Server was out of line. Next time, hold racquet in off hand and yell, "Wait!" i suspect that the person has not played events where you have to wait as balls are cleared. Second option is to do to him what he did to you. Quick serve the 2nd....

 

[stapletonj]

Janet, you are correct. That was a Jerk move on the server's part. Go simply stand in the deuce court ready to return the second serve. If you want to be the bigger man/woman, offer a 1st serve.

 

[princemidplus]

If the server did not wait for the ball to be cleared and the returned was making an effort to clear ball quickly/reasonably then the server should only get a second serve. This is because the server is not giving time for the ball to be cleared safely AND the returner to be ready again.

Often an out serve ball passes the returner and hits the back fence before rolling right up behind returner who may not even be aware. If I'm serving I indicate the ball is dangerous and allow them to move it before I even start my second serve. Again the returner did not cause the delay so no first serve is awarded.

Similar situation to the super fast server who begins their service motion before you have even fully turned around to receive. Simply hold up your racquet and say wait. Or tie your shoelace

 

[sureshs]

Do you know how to score? You're up love 30 on his serve? What are you complaining about?

Seriously, what's preventing you from calling out "wait"? The ball you hit is on your side of the court and you want the server to wait, take responsibility and stop blaming someone else.

His opponent is supposed to make sure the receiver is ready.

 

[Janet Tupper]

Yes I agree.

 

[tennis tom]

The serve was out by a couple inches.

I'm pretty much with you on this as you can see by my posts--Question : did you call his serve out audibly or by pointing it out? Since it was out by only a couple of inches maybe he thought it was in?

 

[Janet Tupper]

Yes he hears me call it out. That’s why he served a second time. When I was on the other side of the court.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Yes he hears me call it out. That’s why he served a second time. When I was on the other side of the court.

He didn't notice, even after his 2nd serve, that you weren't in service receive position?

I could see if he didn't notice before his 2nd serve because he's concentrating so hard on his serve and not you. But how could he fail to notice after hitting the serve? Was he only looking at the ball??

 

[Creighton]

Yeah, but if the serve was close, the returner did nothing wrong, but yet he is being punished by having to give another first serve to the server. If you can show me in the rules where a let is to be given for hitting an out first serve means the server gets a let, I would appreciate it. I cannot find it.

He did nothing wrong, but return a serve he called out. If the serve was close enough that he couldn't call it out until after he took a full swipe at it, then he should have played the serve as in.

 

[Janet Tupper]

He didn't notice, even after his 2nd serve, that you weren't in service receive position?

I could see if he didn't notice before his 2nd serve because he's concentrating so hard on his serve and not you. But how could he fail to notice after hitting the serve? Was he only looking at the ball??

I don’t know. I was shocked.

 

[tonylg]

His opponent is supposed to make sure the receiver is ready.

He was ready, that's why he/she hit the fault ball. If he's now not ready because he decided there is a ball he wants to move, then a simple request to wait is in order.

That may not be what's in your usta rules, but the thread says etiquette.

 

[Janet Tupper]

He was ready, that's why he/she hit the fault ball. If he's now not ready because he decided there is a ball he wants to move, then a simple request to wait is in order.

That may not be what's in your usta rules, but the thread says etiquette.

This was the first point of the game. I was ready for the first serve on the deuce side It was a couple inches long so I hit it. It rolled in the middle of the ad side. I gestured & took a couple steps to move it out of the middle of the court ( no question about being unsafe). While I was on the ad side he apparently didn’t notice where the ball was, where I was or that it had to be moved. He served without looking to my side then moved to the ad side.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

This was the first point of the game. I was ready for the first serve on the deuce side It was a couple inches long so I hit it. It rolled in the middle of the ad side. I gestured & took a couple steps to move it out of the middle of the court ( no question about being unsafe). While I was on the ad side he apparently didn’t notice where the ball was, where I was or that it had to be moved. He served without looking to my side then moved to the ad side.

I'm trying to picture how he could serve without noticing where the ball landed and that there was no returner present.

 

[socallefty]

Next time, yell out ‘Wait’ loudly and hold up your hand after the 1st serve when you have to retrieve a ball or wait for a ball to stop rolling near the fence. That’s what I do because there are too many servers who don’t even look at the returner after their first serve error.

 

[roadto50]

I'm trying to picture how he could serve without noticing where the ball landed and that there was no returner present.

Likewise. People do play with the ball still on the court. It's happened in several USTA matches when it's about 90 degree outside at 100% humidity and neither of us are walking to clear a ball that is not a safety issue.

Now, I have certainly served to people who were on the right side but not ready because I tend to be fast between first and second serves. But to be so oblivious that they serve to an empty court??? Especially if this guy/gal played for 10 years? And then just take the point??? All three is a ridiculous sequence of circumstances.

OP - you are either leaving out some details or this is someone you shouldn't play with.

 

[Nostradamus]

I was playing singles. The server missed his first serve on the first point of the game. (called after it bounced + I hit it). It rolled back onto my side of the court. As I gestured + moved over to clear the ball ( clearly unsafe) he didn’t look up, served his second serve from the deuce court & moved to the ad side. It seemed like he was getting ready to serve the next point. I asked what he was doing. He got upset and said “it’s love 15.” Then “it’s love 30”. First, is it fair to expect him to wait & see if his first serve is out of the way before he serves again? Then should he ensure the receiver is ready? We are still disagreeing about this. He’s played regularly for almost 10 years.

Report him immediately to the club organizer and have him kicked out of the club, and also if he plays USTA, report it to the district coordinator and have him suspended for 1 year

 

[Dartagnan64]

It was quite close. When I took a couple seconds to move to the ad side to clear the ball he served again.

it takes more than a couple seconds to head over to the ad side and then get back into position. Unless you quickly sprinted over there. Should have replayed the point with the server getting a first serve.
in the end I think both players were in the wrong from an etiquette standpoint, but hard to be sure if you aren’t there.

Yeah, but if the serve was close, the returner did nothing wrong, but yet he is being punished by having to give another first serve to the server. If you can show me in the rules where a let is to be given for hitting an out first serve means the server gets a let, I would appreciate it. I cannot find it.

From the Tennis Code
When there is a delay between the first and second serves:
• the server gets one serve if he was the cause of the delay; • the server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the
receiver or if there was outside interference.

 

[tennis tom]

But to be so oblivious that they serve to an empty court???

Trust me they are out there!-just played with two of them--one was my partner who'd serve while I was picking up his first serve faults that always went into the net--the other was one of our opponents who serves without ever checking if his opponents are ready--between them they've been playing for at least 100 years--No situational awareness!--they're the same ones who walk out into traffic without looking while staring at their cell phones.

 

[PrinceMoron]

Played a match last week and nearly every second serve was delayed by the receiver moving a ball
Stupid metal bar at the bottom of the back screen made balls bounce back. Opposition pretty lame too calling the ball out when it was so far out it was annoying.
if you play a decent level and then play down a few divisions you will find lots to annoy you.
My advice is just say no.

my partner was a much weaker and I spent most of the match watching him get picked on. Only good thing was we won on a tie break so they can suck on that

 

[blakesq]

it takes more than a couple seconds to head over to the ad side and then get back into position. Unless you quickly sprinted over there. Should have replayed the point with the server getting a first serve.
in the end I think both players were in the wrong from an etiquette standpoint, but hard to be sure if you aren’t there.



From the Tennis Code
When there is a delay between the first and second serves:
• the server gets one serve if he was the cause of the delay; • the server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the
receiver or if there was outside interference.

@Dartagnan64 , you did not quote the whole rule. The whole rule is below:

"30. Delays during service. When the server’s second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves. 40 THE CODETHE CODE 41 When there is a delay between the first and second serves: • The server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay; • The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves."

Server does not get a 1st serve because the time it takes to clear the ball is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two server UNLESS the time is so prolonged as to constitute interruption. The RECEIVER is the JUDGE of whether the delay is sufficient for a 1st serve. According to the rule, its the RARE exception to give a 1st serve to the server simply for clearing the ball, since the rule says: "The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves..."

 

[Janet Tupper]

Likewise. People do play with the ball still on the court. It's happened in several USTA matches when it's about 90 degree outside at 100% humidity and neither of us are walking to clear a ball that is not a safety issue.

Now, I have certainly served to people who were on the right side but not ready because I tend to be fast between first and second serves. But to be so oblivious that they serve to an empty court??? Especially if this guy/gal played for 10 years? And then just take the point??? All three is a ridiculous sequence of circumstances.

OP - you are either leaving out some details or this is someone you shouldn't play with.

I was blown away. The ball was rolling mid court as he served his second. It seems crazy doesn’t it?

 

[Janet Tupper]

@Dartagnan64 , you did not quote the whole rule. The whole rule is below:

"30. Delays during service. When the server’s second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves. 40 THE CODETHE CODE 41 When there is a delay between the first and second serves: • The server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay; • The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves."

Server does not get a 1st serve because the time it takes to clear the ball is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two server UNLESS the time is so prolonged as to constitute interruption. The RECEIVER is the JUDGE of whether the delay is sufficient for a 1st serve. According to the rule, its the RARE exception to give a 1st serve to the server simply for clearing the ball, since the rule says: "The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves..."

I’ve never seen a situation where the receiver hits a ball that was slightly out, needs to move it and is penalized. The server didn’t look up to check. It was clearly on the court and unsafe.

 

[Janet Tupper]

Trust me they are out there!-just played with two of them--one was my partner who'd serve while I was picking up his first serve faults that always went into the net--the other was one of our opponents who serves without ever checking if his opponents are ready--between them they've been playing for at least 100 years--No situational awareness!--they're the same ones who walk out into traffic without looking while staring at their cell phones.

YIKES

 

[Janet Tupper]

The rules say that the receiver plays at the pace of the server but also that the server should wait until the receiver is ready.

Some people are "autistic", not in the disease sense but in the sense that they are self-absorbed and inner-focused to the point of being oblivious to what's going on around them. One guy would pause maybe 2 seconds after missing his 1st serve before starting is 2nd. He played a guy who likes taking a good 7 seconds after a missed 1st serve and to clear a stray ball. They did not make for a good combination.

To me it seems like common sense and courtesy to wait for the receiver to be ready. Maybe if the receiver was deliberately stretching things out to disrupt my rhythm would I get annoyed but clearing a ball is normal.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Oblivious to the safety of others and self absorbed. I don’t play with anyone else who does this. Most players look BEHIND the receiver to ensure a ball isn’t rolling back too close to their feet to make sure it’s safe and will tell their opponent to pick it up.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Most players look BEHIND the receiver to ensure a ball isn’t rolling back too close to their feet to make sure it’s safe and will tell their opponent to pick it up.

Exactly. I've "disrupted" my own rhythm to watch a ball until it stops if it's anywhere away from the fence and then informed the receiver that he might want to clear the ball.

 

[tennis tom]

Exactly. I've "disrupted" my own rhythm to watch a ball until it stops if it's anywhere away from the fence and then informed the receiver that he might want to clear the ball.

Corollary to this, the same "rec" players who go ape-schitt if a ball is ANYWHERE in their forward view, disrupting play to fetch it because they "once knew of someone stepping on a ball" are totally oblivious to the balls BEHIND them that ricocheted off the fence posts or off concrete bumpers, walls, etc. and pose real perils to them!--I'll track it for them for their safety. I don't get this--it must be some quirk of human nature or evolution. The ball in front of them, resting safely inches from the net that they can see, poses much LESS of a hazard than the ball behind them, that they have paid NO attention to--makes NO sense!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Corollary to this, the same "rec" players who go ape-schitt if a ball is ANYWHERE in their forward view, disrupting play to fetch it because they "once knew of someone stepping on a ball" are totally oblivious to the balls BEHIND them that ricocheted off the fence posts or off concrete bumpers, walls, etc. and pose real perils to them!--I'll track it for them for their safety. I don't get this--it must be some quirk of human nature or evolution. The ball in front of them resting safely inches from the net that they can see poses much LESS of a hazard than the ball behind them that they have paid NO attention to--makes NO sense!

"Ignorance is bliss"?

 

[tennis tom]

The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves."

Some "rec" players are oblivious to THEIR need to offer "two" to the server when there has been a warranted delay to the server's rhythm due to their doing, or a "BALL-ON" call delaying play from another court. The server should NOT need to ask "one or two?" from the receiver(s)--but regretfully they often have to go "begging" for the favor of a reply--in extreme situations, the server may have to award himself a first serve--but this could lead to "discussions" at the net.

 

[Dartagnan64]

@Dartagnan64 , you did not quote the whole rule. The whole rule is below:

"30. Delays during service. When the server’s second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves. 40 THE CODETHE CODE 41 When there is a delay between the first and second serves: • The server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay; • The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves."

Server does not get a 1st serve because the time it takes to clear the ball is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two server UNLESS the time is so prolonged as to constitute interruption. The RECEIVER is the JUDGE of whether the delay is sufficient for a 1st serve. According to the rule, its the RARE exception to give a 1st serve to the server simply for clearing the ball, since the rule says: "The time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves..."

That is where the disagreement comes from. What is a sufficiently prolonged delay? The code states that it merely has to be long enough to constitute a disruption. I'd hazard a guess that if someone was still clearing a ball in the ad court when the opponent serve, they were obviously going to be disrupted by the delay.

But it's Janet's call. If it's my call, I'm probably sprinting to the ball and clearing it to get back within 5 seconds so I don't have to give a first serve. If the opponent still fast serves me, I'll hold up my hand and tell him I'm not ready. Since the let in that instance is caused by the server (serving when opponent not ready), he gets a second serve.
But if I take more than 5 seconds to clear a ball, I generally give a first serve if I was the person that caused the delay. I've seen people awful slow to clear balls when it's the servers fault and they clearly interrupt play. If you take that long to clear a ball that you hit, you should do the right thing and give a first serve.