In a USTA mixed doubles match the server served the first ball, the returner returned the ball, and the server caught the ball in her hand making no effort to hit the ball. She (the server) thought she heard “out” called by the opponents and was moving on to the second serve. After 20-25 minutes of looking through rules and stonewalling on both sides they decided to play a let. Was this the correct call?
Server thought she heard "OUT"
- Thread starter frank52
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Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
The correct call is server loses the point.
The sane call is to give the server second serve as a courtesy if this is the first time it happened, especially if play in a noisy venues, or if you or your partner routinely return obviously out serves, or if you or your partner are Low-Talkers.
Life is way, way too short to spend 20-25 minutes of it looking for a rule in a league doubles match.
The sane call is to give the server second serve as a courtesy if this is the first time it happened, especially if play in a noisy venues, or if you or your partner routinely return obviously out serves, or if you or your partner are Low-Talkers.
Life is way, way too short to spend 20-25 minutes of it looking for a rule in a league doubles match.
Gut4Tennis
Hall of Fame
25 min?? No way in the world will I believe they took 25 min to argue this.
Since she caught the return, that was obvious she was sure she heard an out call. Unless this point was some massive huge point to decide the match, and this match was the decider for the universe league championship, you then give the server a break and replay the point.
25 min = 100% LIE
edit: This has to be a troll thread. Nobody with a brain is going to waste 25 min on this silliness.
Since she caught the return, that was obvious she was sure she heard an out call. Unless this point was some massive huge point to decide the match, and this match was the decider for the universe league championship, you then give the server a break and replay the point.
25 min = 100% LIE
edit: This has to be a troll thread. Nobody with a brain is going to waste 25 min on this silliness.
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tennis tom
Legend
Server needs to Q-Tip more.
Something like this happened to me a while ago. I was asked to substitute for someone. On the very first point of the match my serve was close to the line. The receiver had to go very wide to get a racquet on it. At the same time he yelled "awahhhh." I stopped playing thinking he called the ball "awahhhht." There then came a period of confusion. I assumed that we would simply play a let. He said no way. I then told him his return was out (it had barely touched the line). He then made some comment about my character and then someone mentioned the other guy was a preacher. A humorous ending to a match that did not even last one point!
I had the same thing happen to me in a singles match. Guy never made a sound the entire match returning, then I hit a good serve on a big point and he goes "ahhhgt" as he returns. I hesitated, thinking he called it out and messed up the point. I was ****ed but decided to treat it as a learning experience. From now on, I treat them as good if the ball comes back, no matter what I hear.
The partner heard nothing. Nobody else heard "out". It could have only been 15 minutes. Seemed like a long, long time. Two different people looked through Friend of the Court for some time. This was a case of two opponents not willing to be gracious in a match of the two bottom teams in the league. I was not playing but I was the captain of the serving team. As captain of my team I stated that I believed, technically, the point belonged to the returner (the opponent). My player refused to accept that and demanded I show the rule. I and other non-players on both teams also agreed that they should play a let. But the hard-headed players ignored us and continued debating.
I believe they argued for 25 minutes. Some people want to hear themselves that badly.
I watched two women argue for 5-15 minutes multiple times while playing a singles match. They would argue for several minutes, then call their captains down and it would continue for a while...then resume and start the argument all over again a few minutes later. Most of the other matches were over when we started playing a social match on the adjacent court.
I thought they were going to fight at the end - instead they shook hands and were best friends.
I watched two women argue for 5-15 minutes multiple times while playing a singles match. They would argue for several minutes, then call their captains down and it would continue for a while...then resume and start the argument all over again a few minutes later. Most of the other matches were over when we started playing a social match on the adjacent court.
I thought they were going to fight at the end - instead they shook hands and were best friends.
tenniscasey
Semi-Pro
Just replay the point. If you whip out Friend at Court in this situation and look at it for any more than 60 seconds, you're taking recreational tennis way too seriously.
goober
Legend
I don't get why you called his return that touched the line out? As some form of retaliation for not calling a let? I would question your character as well but I would have to question the character of everybody on the court if you called a match after one point.
tennis tom
Legend
This is what happens when the inmates are running the asylum. People who have never competed before are thrown out to USTA league tennis. They don't know the rules and have no inclination to learn. One whack will go to the mat disagreeing with their partner and opponents arguing a point they don't know a thing about. They disrupt play on adjoining courts with their arguing, wasting court time others may be waiting for. They should be doing their talking around the beer keg and Doritos which is really what they are there for and leave the playing to the players who at least took the time to learn the rules and some fundamentals of timing, footwork and technique. If the USTA is going to take money from people playing rec matches, they should also supply wardens to keep the inmates in line, this kind of behavior has been the ruination of what used to be a pleasant afternoon pastime.
Sometimes sounds from players can be distracting, including those from other courts. I have encountered situations where the returner has groaned when trying to stretch to retrieve a wide serve, and I could not tell that from if he had called it out or wide or long. Sometimes a partner calling "bounce it" just before the ball bounces (i.e., rather late) can sound like he was quickly calling the ball out.
OK good to know that I am not the only one who has been confused by groans
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
If the returner makes noise after hitting the ball back into play can't the server claim a hindrance? It seems like it would be a hindrance if I thought the sound was "out" and it turned out not to be.
Bdarb
Hall of Fame
This and Cindy's answer. I would concede the point just to shut them up, maybe even the game! sheesh..
This has happened to me frequently, knowing the rules, I'll concede the point knowing it was legitimate (unless the returner will allow me another serve, in that case I'll take it)
My slice serve is hard to see from the serving angle and balls i would think are long, get played. The best thing to do is assume your serve is in so you're never caught off guard.
My slice serve is hard to see from the serving angle and balls i would think are long, get played. The best thing to do is assume your serve is in so you're never caught off guard.
newpball
Legend
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tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
The serve can be frustrating. Don't play a serve you feel is out and this happens. Play a ball that's out by two inches with no call and everyone looks at you as if you're nuts -- it was clearly out. I used to grit my teeth and then learned to play everything. Hold three balls, take a free practice cut and let them run down the balls if not calling clearly. They quickly catch on.
And then there's the server or partner who call their own first serves. One of the more amusing arguments when they don't play the reply. They're always the first to argue the serve caught the 1/8" line and then on the next, argue it was out by 1/8" Sigh.
And then there's the server or partner who call their own first serves. One of the more amusing arguments when they don't play the reply. They're always the first to argue the serve caught the 1/8" line and then on the next, argue it was out by 1/8" Sigh.
Bdarb
Hall of Fame
I just tell them, "I'll call my side, thanks though." If they say the ball was in, it's not their call, so it's a mute point.
newpball
Legend
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
I fear such a response tends to play into the hands of the few who really believe this is some weird form of cheating (playing a close ball that might be out). I usually just shug my shoulders and say I thought it caught the line -- too close to call out. I try not to giggle when a few games later they'll groan over a close out call. File under weird.
Bdarb
Hall of Fame
I agree, but if they are worried about that, it's a whole other aspect of the game they have to play that I will not be involved in. They can take my response as curt or factual or both, the point is still mute
Bdarb
Hall of Fame
newpball
Legend
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Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
I was talking to an insurance rep today, and he clearly said "it's a mute point". I chuckled inside, but let it slide as it was NOT a moot point, and apparently it wasn't mute either.
Pros do that too. The two actions need not be cause and effect.
Bdarb
Hall of Fame
Hahahhaha noted, thanks. To be fair, I teach special education, not language arts lol jk but seriously... Hahah
Bdarb
Hall of Fame
Your point is not moot mute or anything else of the sort, do not worry
Twozingsnotten.
AtomicForehand
Hall of Fame
I once played an opponent who was consistently very slow and/or quiet with line calls, prompting me to ask many times during the match what her call was, or to question the score ("40-30? But I didn't hear you call it out--wasn't that ball in? Should be 30-40"). Refused to speak up or use hand signals. Anyway, she also had a nasty habit of playing serves that were clearly long or wide. I'm talking by a foot or more. The first three times she did this, I stopped play, and prepared to take a second serve, while she wanted to claim the point. "I didn't call that out."
(It was EXTREMELY SATISFYING to beat her, BTW...)
(It was EXTREMELY SATISFYING to beat her, BTW...)
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
The problem is when people who never bothered to read the rules decide to go to the mat.
I was playing a set tiebreak. At the end, opponents looked confused about whether to switch sides. I said we switch because 13 games had been played, and it was their serve because my partner served the first point in the tiebreak.
Correct on all counts.
Then one opponent said we do not switch because my partner had served from the other side to start the tiebreak. I said no, that is not how it works. Nope, she wasn't having it.
So I just let them serve from wherever they wanted. It was indoors, for heavens sake.
Why someone would stake out the wrong position when it doesn't even matter is beyond me.
Rather than start a new thread I'm just going to piggy back here. Playing in our State Tournament this past weekend. I'm playing back, my partner is at the net. I hit a return at their guy who is playing at the net. He hits a short looping ball back to us over the net in the direction of my partner. While the ball is in the air he yells something that to my partner and I was indecipherable and we both stop playing. We claimed a hindrance and claimed the point was ours. Opponent says he was telling his partner to switch.
Not able to resolve on our own we got a referee on the phone. Referee said the determining factor was which side of the net the ball was on. If on theirs not a hindrance, if on ours we could claim a hindrance.
Personally I think the ref blew the call. The determining factor is which direction the ball was travelling. Thoughts?
Not able to resolve on our own we got a referee on the phone. Referee said the determining factor was which side of the net the ball was on. If on theirs not a hindrance, if on ours we could claim a hindrance.
Personally I think the ref blew the call. The determining factor is which direction the ball was travelling. Thoughts?
tenniscasey
Semi-Pro
Yeah kev, the ref blew the call. Friend at Court makes it very clear, if the ball is moving toward you, anything your opponents say could be called a hindrance. (Code section 34)
I know. It's frustrating because I actually read that out loud over the phone and the ref still stood by his ruling. We were losing the match and had no shot to win so I just let it go instead of going to the mat on it.
Tell that to Azarenka or Sharapova.
Seriously, how much longer will the WTA allow the game to be ruined by them and a few others?
beernutz
Hall of Fame
There is a key part of that section of the Code which sometimes doesn't get enough attention, namely: When talking interferes with an opponent’s ability to play a ball, it is a hindrance.
So just because your opponent talks when the ball is headed away from them doesn't automatically constitute a hindrance. The talking also must interfere with your ability to play the ball.
In Kevrol's example, based on what he wrote it does appear that his team had a legitimate hindrance call and were right to stop play immediately. The ref should actually have taken a look at the code section before answering.
So just because your opponent talks when the ball is headed away from them doesn't automatically constitute a hindrance. The talking also must interfere with your ability to play the ball.
In Kevrol's example, based on what he wrote it does appear that his team had a legitimate hindrance call and were right to stop play immediately. The ref should actually have taken a look at the code section before answering.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
In your case, I can guarantee she was faking it.
It's mind boggling that someone would spend 25 minutes debating something like this. Honestly it sounds to me like those people cared more about being right about this than they did about playing the tennis match. I can't believe how such little things can become such overblown issues. I would say people are taking this way too serious. Unless your playing in some kind of money tournament or something like that have some respect for each other and give each other the benefit of the doubt especially if it is the first time an incident came up in the match.
Also, I can't believe that players can be so distracted by someone else's grunting or doubles talk that they can't hit their own shot. Unless someone comes up behind me with a megaphone and screams into it when I don't see it coming, a little talk on the other side of the net or some grunting is not going to throw off my game. Good lord, pulling the hindrance card, no wonder people who don't play tennis think that tennis players are such pansies because a lot of them really are.
I have also noticed that a lot of the people who want to pull the rule book out on every little thing are typically the ones who create most of the problems that arise on the court. To be carrying a rule book around with you so you can argue with someone over minute issues you obviously want to win a lot more than I do. Ok my rant is over.
Also, I can't believe that players can be so distracted by someone else's grunting or doubles talk that they can't hit their own shot. Unless someone comes up behind me with a megaphone and screams into it when I don't see it coming, a little talk on the other side of the net or some grunting is not going to throw off my game. Good lord, pulling the hindrance card, no wonder people who don't play tennis think that tennis players are such pansies because a lot of them really are.
I have also noticed that a lot of the people who want to pull the rule book out on every little thing are typically the ones who create most of the problems that arise on the court. To be carrying a rule book around with you so you can argue with someone over minute issues you obviously want to win a lot more than I do. Ok my rant is over.
Are you talking about Cindy?
Someone on this forum always carries a rule book with her.
tenniscasey
Semi-Pro
This bugs me too. I've always liked Sharapova's game, and I'm warming up to Azarenka, but they're both big-time cheaters. It's a shame the WTA lacks the stones to do something about their incessant hollering and hooting (respectively).
In my instance it's not that it distracted us from playing, we thought they were saying something about the point being over. You say something loud and unintelligible while the ball is going towards your opponent you run the risk of this.
Turbo-87
G.O.A.T.
Well put. I pretty much agree with all of your statements.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Excerpt from the book "Park Legend Strategy Handbook"
(with forward by Richerd Nickson, Carl Red Rover and The Woof of Dog Street)
- when returning hard serves, loudly grunt "ooouuuuuu!!!"
- add the 't' to your grunt if:
1) serve ends up being an ace or unreturnable
2) it looks like your return will hit the net or land out
3) it is second serve and break point.
When the call is challenged by opponent:
1) tell them it was close, but just ooouuuuu-t
2) point to a place in the service box just out
3) say, "it's my call."
4) if it's on clay, pretend to look at a mark and do #1
if your opponent starts to come over to look at the actual mark,
quickly make a new mark with your racquet or foot and then
"accidentally" erase the actual mark
5) say "it's my call"
(with forward by Richerd Nickson, Carl Red Rover and The Woof of Dog Street)
- when returning hard serves, loudly grunt "ooouuuuuu!!!"
- add the 't' to your grunt if:
1) serve ends up being an ace or unreturnable
2) it looks like your return will hit the net or land out
3) it is second serve and break point.
When the call is challenged by opponent:
1) tell them it was close, but just ooouuuuu-t
2) point to a place in the service box just out
3) say, "it's my call."
4) if it's on clay, pretend to look at a mark and do #1
if your opponent starts to come over to look at the actual mark,
quickly make a new mark with your racquet or foot and then
"accidentally" erase the actual mark
5) say "it's my call"
Steady Eddy
Legend
I have a friend who does this all the time. He doesn't play tennis, it just happens in real life a lot. He knows this and says that his motto is "Often wrong, never in doubt".
It doesn't bother him. Some people are like that.
I think it's a mistake anyway to yell "switch!". When my partner crosses I know to cover the open court. Yelling "switch" makes me think he believes he has a real dummy for a partner. Only a raw beginner thinks, "But, but...that's MY side of the court! I can't go over there."
If I wondered if the point had been called to an end, I'd also find that to be a hindrance. Playing while wondering if a point is over, is very distracting.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Or less... Perhaps she can't hear because of a ruptured ear drum via qtip :wink:
