Service rules question...

[R1FF]

My pre serve routine is as follows

1. Call out score loudly
2. While doing so I take a peek to make sure everyone is ready & in position
3. Then I take a few steps to get into my serve position and start the toss

I had an opponent start raising their hand once I was in position to signal that they weren’t ready. Even tho they were. There was no reason to interrupt my routine.

Upon explanation they were asking that before I start my service/ball toss, I must look up at them and acknowledge they are ready to play.

Ummm... i think I did that when I called out the score? And I wasnt aware I was under any obligation to make eye contact before the start of every point.

I took it as gamesmanship. Paid it no mind. And it did not affect my serve (I practice way too much). Still held behind the strength of my serve easily.

But just outta curiosity, what are the actual rules regarding this? I know I’ve paused a server so i could clear a ball, and kept my hand up so I could let them know I wasnt in position yet (if they had a tendency to rush). But always within reason.

Is a cue/acknowledgement that opponent is ready mandatory? I figured it was like baseball. Once in the batter’s box, that implied you were ready, game on. If I see my opponent standing on the baseline, racquet in hand, leaned over & ready... they’re ready imo. No reason to stop me or demand I change my routine (unless a ball comes on court or something, which was not the case here).

 

[Mongolmike]

I think you are fine. Sounds like gamesmanship. One time they do it, I accept it. Second time, I know I'm gonna pause, look at them, then ask them what the hold up is. Any push back and I 'splain to them your 1-2-3 points. From there... who knows...

 

[R1FF]

I think you are fine. Sounds like gamesmanship. One time they do it, I accept it. Second time, I know I'm gonna pause, look at them, then ask them what the hold up is. Any push back and I 'splain to them your 1-2-3 points. From there... who knows...

Yeah, I was given pushback. The explanation was that I need to acknowledge their readiness. I called BS. I was sorta ok with them holding up my serves. The more reps, the better I get. It’s not in their favor to pull this stunt.

I just wanted to make sure I was within the rules. Thx

 

[JLyon]

A receiver once in ready position can not become unready, unless it is extenuating (bee sting, outside interference).

 

[Mongolmike]

Yeah, I was given pushback. The explanation was that I need to acknowledge their readiness. I called BS. I was sorta ok with them holding up my serves. The more reps, the better I get. It’s not in their favor to pull this stunt.

I just wanted to make sure I was within the rules. Thx

Note, I agree with you, but I am no expert on the rules. Didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn... so it's just my opinion.

My routine is almost same as yours, and I too don't care if you want to hold me up, my serves are pretty consistent. Now gamesmanship.... you start throwing that cr ap in my direction, yeah, I'll say something.

 

[OnTheLine]

I think there is a fine line for the server to be able to confirm receiver readiness .... then there are quick-servers

Doesn't sound like you did anything the least bit wrong.

The actual rule:

29. Receiver readiness. The receiver shall play to the reasonable pace of the server. The receiver should make no effort to return a serve when the receiver is not ready. If a player attempts to return a serve (even if it is a “quick” serve), then the receiver (or receiving team) is presumed to be ready. The receiver may not become unready unless outside interference occurs.

 

[R1FF]

Note, I agree with you, but I am no expert on the rules. Didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn... so it's just my opinion.

My routine is almost same as yours, and I too don't care if you want to hold me up, my serves are pretty consistent. Now gamesmanship.... you start throwing that cr ap in my direction, yeah, I'll say something.

I hate the gamesmanship. Im not there to get in petty arguments with people. I seem to atteact an inordinate amount of antics from opponents as well. People will try any desperate measures except actually playing better.

I’ve really worked on not visibly showing frustration tho. Ultimately, their goal is to break my focus/intensity. So I just serve anyways. Not gonna break routine. And if Im gonna be allowed 3 serves, its not gonna end well for them.

I cant wait to consistently be playing at a higher level. Had my first 4.5 match last week. First time in a long time there was no BS. No theatrics. No gamesmanship. Just pure, intense, competitive tennis. We didnt even look at each other during changeovers. It was a VERY fun match.

 

[R1FF]

I think there is a fine line for the server to be able to confirm receiver readiness .... then there are quick-servers

Doesn't sound like you did anything the least bit wrong.

The actual rule:

29. Receiver readiness. The receiver shall play to the reasonable pace of the server. The receiver should make no effort to return a serve when the receiver is not ready. If a player attempts to return a serve (even if it is a “quick” serve), then the receiver (or receiving team) is presumed to be ready. The receiver may not become unready unless outside interference occurs.

Interesting. Seems there is some nuance there that can be exploited if someone wants to be super lame.

The definition of “ready” is judged by whether the receiver actually attempts to receive? That seems too subjective & after-the-fact to be fair.

I’ve had a lotta people try to quick-serve me. But I figured once Im on the baseline hunched over, Im signaling Im ready... unless I have a hand raised for some specific reason.

 

[R1FF]

Furthermore, the responses here confirm what I assumed, which is, that there is no BS rule that says I must make some sort of acknowledgement of the receiver’s readiness as part of my pre-toss routine.

 

[OnTheLine]

I will note my own routine as receiver .... if I am not ready, I keep my back to the court .... particularly against someone who is a quick-server, I do not turn and "assume the position" until I am actually ready.

There is some nuance, but for most I guess it is one of those "you know it when you see it" situations.

Few people exploit it .... 90% of players play within the confines of the rules or the spirit of the rules.

I do not like being quick-served ... I am certain no one does ... those servers who say the score and serve at nearly the same moment.

As server, I announce score, bounce ball, take a strong look at the receiver ... (perhaps there is some acknowledgement in that moment ?), then into service motion.

 

[R1FF]

I will note my own routine as receiver .... if I am not ready, I keep my back to the court .... particularly against someone who is a quick-server, I do not turn and "assume the position" until I am actually ready.

There is some nuance, but for most I guess it is one of those "you know it when you see it" situations.

Few people exploit it .... 90% of players play within the confines of the rules or the spirit of the rules.

I do not like being quick-served ... I am certain no one does ... those servers who say the score and serve at nearly the same moment.

As server, I announce score, bounce ball, take a strong look at the receiver ... (perhaps there is some acknowledgement in that moment ?), then into service motion.

Yes, I learned the back to opponent move was somewhat effective. But too often I’ve found myself turning around and they start to toss the ball before my feet are squared up. Thus the hand move.

Idk why anyone would choose to call out score while tossing. Lotsa players do it. And it seems they do at opportune times. I think it is tactical. If they can get get the receiver’s mind on the score, instead of the task at hand, it’s a definitive advantage to the server in that regard. Me? Im focused on my breathing technique. I would never call score while serving. Im certainly not looking to have a good serve taken away because of it.


Re your last paragraph, yes, they wanted me to give a look of acknowledgement. My routine is already very exaggerated & deliberate. Their request was ridiculous. So it was obvious they were attempting to break my routine. But my routine is my routine, I choose to give the court a look during the score call, and Im not conspicuous about my peek, because I dont want the opponent knowing if I noticed their shift to protect T or wide.

I put a lot of work & thought into my serve. I see it as a basketball freethrow. Everything must be routine, and replicable when dead tired.

 

[OnTheLine]

Having a very deliberate routing is good .... but one thing stood out in your last comment. you "give the court a look" .... and you called it "a peek" ... I can see where the combination of those two things indicates that you are not really checking to see if opponent is ready as much as a player is used to.

Perhaps consider making it a slightly more deliberate look.

 

[R1FF]

Having a very deliberate routing is good .... but one thing stood out in your last comment. you "give the court a look" .... and you called it "a peek" ... I can see where the combination of those two things indicates that you are not really checking to see if opponent is ready as much as a player is used to.

Perhaps consider making it a slightly more deliberate look.

Nope. It’s a “peek” on purpose. I dont want them knowing that I see their exaggerated shifts to cover the T for example. What they’re used too is not my concern either. What I practice, within the rules, is what Im sticking too. It’s not my job to make them comfortable. In fact, my job is the opposite of that. Think closely about what you’re suggesting, you’re suggesting I hurt my routine and aid the opponent.

Im going to be especially onry & unforgiving on the matter when it’s pretty obvious that they are the one’s trying to make me uncomfortable via gamesmanship. Which was the case here.

It’s a competition. We are at odds, by the nature of it being a competition. Not sure why I’d even remotely consider changing a perfectly fair/legal/patient/sensible & effective service routine. My job is to ace them. And Im supposed to make it easier for them to return my serve by breaking my routine that I practice every day? LOL... no thx.

 

[R1FF]

Think about how asinine this sounds...

- server waits for receiver to get in ready position, calls out score, then steps to his own position

- receiver raises hand to signal he’s not ready

- i ask, “what’s the problem?”

- response, “just want to make sure you know Im ready”

- RAISING YOUR HAND IS THE EXACT F’N OPPOSITE OF SIGNALING THAT YOU ARE READY!!!

 

[TagUrIt]

Having a very deliberate routing is good .... but one thing stood out in your last comment. you "give the court a look" .... and you called it "a peek" ... I can see where the combination of those two things indicates that you are not really checking to see if opponent is ready as much as a player is used to.

Perhaps consider making it a slightly more deliberate look.

I think your service routine is pretty fair, to your opponents. A peek or look might be play on words. Per the rules, the speed of the game favors the server anyway. When my opponents step up to baseline, I assume their ready to receive serve. Full disclosure, I have been known to grab a quick towel before returning serve, but I never do it to interrupt the server. If whatever reason I do delay the server, I'll definitely offer a hand up as an apology.

To answer your original question sometimes people try to slow your momentum (especially if you're winning) or even throw your rhythm off. You probably know your opponents better than us, is that the way they play? Winning ugly?

 

[OnTheLine]

Think about how asinine this sounds...

- server waits for receiver to get in ready position, calls out score, then steps to his own position

- receiver raises hand to signal he’s not ready

- i ask, “what’s the problem?”

- response, “just want to make sure you know Im ready”

- RAISING YOUR HAND IS THE EXACT F’N OPPOSITE OF SIGNALING THAT YOU ARE READY!!!

Absolutely raising your hand is the opposite .... LOL

 

[R1FF]

I think your service routine is pretty fair, to your opponents. A peek or look might be play on words. Per the rules, the speed of the game favors the server anyway. When my opponents step up to baseline, I assume their ready to receive serve. Full disclosure, I have been known to grab a quick towel before returning serve, but I never do it to interrupt the server. If whatever reason I do delay the server, I'll definitely offer a hand up as an apology.

To answer your original question sometimes people try to slow your momentum (especially if you're winning) or even throw your rhythm off. You probably know your opponents better than us, is that the way they play? Winning ugly?

For sure I peek. I dont want them knowing I looked and saw their shift. This enstills them more confidence in the direction they think my serve is going. And thus rewards my placement (over power) when I go the other direction.

I dont know the opponents at all. But we were 90 minutes into playing before the shenanigans started. And yeah, my serve was doing well & only getting better as time wore on. It was definitely an attempt to mess with me, my teammate said as much (he knew the opponents well).

Im all for “winning ugly”. Not a huge fan of cheating. It didnt help them win at all tho. I held serve the rest of the day, which included an ace on my next service game. I let my ego get the better of me and started swinging harder. They didn’t realize that I play better when angry.

After the session it was all good tho. I think in some weird way they were testing me and I passed. But Im glad to know the rules now in case it happens again.

 

[stapletonj]

"if I am not ready, I keep my back to the court .... particularly against someone who is a quick-server, I do not turn and "assume the position" until I am actually ready."

But there's always that ONE GUY. Who starts his service motion the instant I even begin to turn back around. Feel like a "Richard" doing it, but after the 2nd time he did it, I just stood there and said I wasn't ready.

 

[R1FF]

Lemme ask this, since we’re sorta on the topic...

Is it legal for a server to call score DURING their toss?

I hope not. I dont think it should be legal. But I dunno. I would hope the rules designate the proper time to call score, so the receiver has time to think & challenge it (if necessary) and then focus on their job as returner. I dont want to be thinking about if the server called the score wrong while I’m supposed to be focused on their toss.

 

[stapletonj]

AS long AS you do it with a Sharapova shreik and have her figure, go for it. Otherwise, could well be a hindrance.

 

[TagUrIt]

Lemme ask this, since we’re sorta on the topic...

Is it legal for a server to call score DURING their toss?

I hope not. I dont think it should be legal. But I dunno. I would hope the rules designate the proper time to call score, so the receiver has time to think & challenge it (if necessary) and then focus on their job as returner. I dont want to be thinking about if the server called the score wrong while I’m supposed to be focused on their toss.

Quoted from friend of the court rules.


SCORING
31. Server announces score. The server shall announce the game score before the first point of a game and the point score before each subsequent point of the game.

HINDRANCE ISSUES
33. Claiming a hindrance. A player who claims a hindrance must stop play as soon as possible.

34. Talking when ball is in play.
• Singles players should not talk during points.

• Any talking that interferes with an opponent’s ability to a ball is a hindrance.


If that happened to me, I would ask that they call the score BEFORE the serve, if they don’t after that I would call hindrance.

 

[R1FF]

Quoted from friend of the court rules.


SCORING
31. Server announces score. The server shall announce the game score before the first point of a game and the point score before each subsequent point of the game.

HINDRANCE ISSUES
33. Claiming a hindrance. A player who claims a hindrance must stop play as soon as possible.

34. Talking when ball is in play.
• Singles players should not talk during points.

• Any talking that interferes with an opponent’s ability to a ball is a hindrance.


If that happened to me, I would ask that they call the score BEFORE the serve, if they don’t after that I would call hindrance.

Because technically, once they toss the ball, it’s in play, right?

The way those rules are written, still leaves room for exploitation.

I kinda think that once the server has gotten into position (started their ball dribbling, etc) the point has started. Score should be called before then.

But whatev’s. Thems the rules. They wanna rush things, I think it only hurts them.

So let’s say the ball is in olay during the toss... they call score & immediately start to toss after... but I want clarification on the score. Haven’t I now committed a hinderance? What choice did they leave me?

I only ask because I see this a LOT.

 

[OnTheLine]

Because technically, once they toss the ball, it’s in play, right?

The way those rules are written, still leaves room for exploitation.

I kinda think that once the server has gotten into position (started their ball dribbling, etc) the point has started. Score should be called before then.

But whatev’s. Thems the rules. They wanna rush things, I think it only hurts them.

So let’s say the ball is in olay during the toss... they call score & immediately start to toss after... but I want clarification on the score. Haven’t I now committed a hinderance? What choice did they leave me?

I only ask because I see this a LOT.

I don't see it very often, but often enough.

If you want clarification, immediately say "stop" "hold up" or whatever ... confirm/clarify the score ... it would be server's first serve and as if the point had not started.

(You couldn't do it and then claim server must now have a 2nd serve)

 

[OnTheLine]

And no, the point is not in play until server has struck the ball

 

[R1FF]

And no, the point is not in play until server has struck the ball

So then what is stopping them from asking for clarification during my toss, after score was given long ago, and they showed ready?

The grey area here is a problem. I’ve faced multiple opponents this year who exploited the ambiguity when they got into tough spots. Enough to heavily impact the match.

TagUrIt seemed to prove that is a hinderance. You’re saying it wouldn’t be. I need clarification on this.

 

[OnTheLine]

TagUrIt is using the hindrance rule to force the server to announce the score prior to the service motion rather than during it.

He is claiming that speaking during the service motion is a hindrance.

Think on this in terms of when the point starts:
I call the score
I bounce the ball
I begin my service motion
I toss up a terrible toss .... I catch the toss

Has the point started?

No. It has not. It begins when I strike the ball with my racquet

Same reason that if I send up a lousy toss and I catch it with my racquet .... it is a Fault.

 

[R1FF]

TagUrIt is using the hindrance rule to force the server to announce the score prior to the service motion rather than during it.

He is claiming that speaking during the service motion is a hindrance.

Think on this in terms of when the point starts:
I call the score
I bounce the ball
I begin my service motion
I toss up a terrible toss .... I catch the toss

Has the point started?

No. It has not. It begins when I strike the ball with my racquet

Same reason that if I send up a lousy toss and I catch it with my racquet .... it is a Fault.

I understand all that.

So then what is to stop my opponent (the receiver) from continually stopping me during my toss, for whatever halfcocked reason they make up?

There doesn’t seem to be any clarification on when a score must be called or when the receiver can interrupt the server. That is not exactly what I’d call “playing to the pace of the server”. And defining when a receiver is “ready” isnt clearly defined, only that they cannot get “unready” once already ready.

Too much ambiguity.

 

[OnTheLine]

I understand all that.

So then what is to stop my opponent (the receiver) from continually stopping me during my toss, for whatever halfcocked reason they make up?

There doesn’t seem to be any clarification on when a score must be called or when the receiver can interrupt the server. That is not exactly what I’d call “playing to the pace of the server”. And defining when a receiver is “ready” isnt clearly defined, only that they cannot get “unready” once already ready.

Too much ambiguity.

Part of the beauty of tennis rules is that there is some ambiguity .... that is where fair play and all that stuff like giving the opponent the benefit of the doubt comes in.

Technically nothing would stop a receiver from becoming unready over and over .... except that it is against the spirit of fair play, being courteous to ones' opponent, etc. But in your instance it does not sound like that is what was happening.

Just as technically you could bounce the ball during your exaggerated service routine 45 times even though the rules say that the server should not bounce the ball "excessively" .... yes the definition of excessively is not defined ... but we know it when we see it.

For most of us it all goes back to "I know it when I see it". 99% of the time it is obvious that the receiver is ready .... they are looking at you, they are in some semblance of a posture that says, I am ready to hit the ball .... granted you are just "peeking" so maybe you don't see that.

Just because it is supposed to be played at the pace of the server, does not mean that the server is king for that moment.

 

[R1FF]

Part of the beauty of tennis rules is that there is some ambiguity .... that is where fair play and all that stuff like giving the opponent the benefit of the doubt comes in.

Technically nothing would stop a receiver from becoming unready over and over .... except that it is against the spirit of fair play, being courteous to ones' opponent, etc. But in your instance it does not sound like that is what was happening.

Just as technically you could bounce the ball during your exaggerated service routine 45 times even though the rules say that the server should not bounce the ball "excessively" .... yes the definition of excessively is not defined ... but we know it when we see it.

For most of us it all goes back to "I know it when I see it". 99% of the time it is obvious that the receiver is ready .... they are looking at you, they are in some semblance of a posture that says, I am ready to hit the ball .... granted you are just "peeking" so maybe you don't see that.

Just because it is supposed to be played at the pace of the server, does not mean that the server is king for that moment.

I do not find beauty in the ambiguity of rules. Not when they can & should be easily cleared up.

From your interpretation of the rules (which seems accurate unless anyone else can claim otherwise) there is nothing to stop them from repeatedly raising their hand and interrupting my serve routine. And nothing to stop them from hinderance during my ball toss (of which I had actually happen a few months back, EVERY time I was serving for game point the opponent asked for the score again, even tho I religiously call it out well in advance of even getting into my own service ready position). And lastly, the server is indeed allowed to call their score during a toss. ..... even tho we all are in agreement that each one of these instances are total busch league tactics deserving of a knuckle sandwich.

It’s an unacceptable loophole imo. Odd for a sport this old to have not had it sured up a lot sooner.

Even more a reason I cannot wait to play 4.5 fulltime. I dont see any of this crap during those matches. Just pure tennis. They seem to get the spirit of the rules. 3.0-4.0 is full of weirdos in my experience.

 

[TagUrIt]

R1FF it sounds like some of the people you're playing with are doing everything they can to disrupt you. It's a terrible display or gamesmanship for even sportsmanship for that matter. I can't say that it'll be better at the 4.5 level (I hope it will) having mental endurance is just as important as any serve, ground stroke etc.

I can't say that I've encountered opponents like this before, most of the people I've played with have been good sports. I'm sure that must have been more than frustrating. In another thread I got criticized for not talking to my opponent, as it it were a tactic in itself, I just know that mental focus is imperative to win at any level.

If you come across players like that again, call them out on their BS!!!! If need be send an email to the league coordinator.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I believe you can catch a toss with your racket and it is not a fault.

If you attempt to serve it, it is a fault.

 

[R1FF]

R1FF it sounds like some of the people you're playing with are doing everything they can to disrupt you. It's a terrible display or gamesmanship for even sportsmanship for that matter. I can't say that it'll be better at the 4.5 level (I hope it will) having mental endurance is just as important as any serve, ground stroke etc.

I can't say that I've encountered opponents like this before, most of the people I've played with have been good sports. I'm sure that must have been more than frustrating. In another thread I got criticized for not talking to my opponent, as it it were a tactic in itself, I just know that mental focus is imperative to win at any level.

If you come across players like that again, call them out on their BS!!!! If need be send an email to the league coordinator.

And what is the league coordinator supposed to do? Their tactics are perfectly within the rules.

I had a USTA official on our court. There was nothing he did or could do about the issues with my opponent repeatedly asking for the score during a serve.

Yes, I seem to attract a lotta BS gamesmanship. It’s also relevant that I pick up on this stuff where most wouldnt notice. I have plenty of mental endurance, as I displayed over the weekend. But Im there to test my mental endurance within the sport. Not the opponent’s childish antics.

And unfortunately the rules are not written in a way that protects me from the BS. Every other sport has natural checks & balances. In basketball I’d just throw a dirty elbow and send the message that way. Usually does the trick. Sometimes a full on fight is in order, and usually keeps the peace for about 2 weeks on most serious courts.

I have two options:

Walk to the other side of the net and threaten the opponent. That is sure to get their attention. But it’s not exactly what Im there for. I just wanna play tennis.

Or

Get good enough that I can rise above the shenanigans. Of which I see far less of at 4.5+ (I dont see any tbh) .... it’s guys that got better on merit. Exploiting loopholes like this would get you ostracized from hitting circles. I figure, to get to 4.5+, you dont get there when your only hitting partner left is a ball machine.

 

[Chadalina]

Upon explanation they were asking that before I start my service/ball toss, I must look up at them and acknowledge they are ready to play.

You do that on the first point, not every point.

You opponent doesnt know the rules, you never look them in the eye's once the match begins...

 

[WhiteOut]

Nope. It’s a “peek” on purpose. I dont want them knowing that I see their exaggerated shifts to cover the T for example.

i do the same thing. i wear a cap/visor and peek under it to see where they are shifted. i also don't like them to see my eyes and where i'm targeting my serve either.

but my routine sounds similar to yours: collect the balls, step up, take a deliberate, deep/steady breath, call the score, two bounces /take a peek, set, toss, fire.

 

[Chalkdust]

For sure I peek. I dont want them knowing I looked and saw their shift. This enstills them more confidence in the direction they think my serve is going. And thus rewards my placement (over power) when I go the other direction.

You just need to see that they are ready before you start your motion. If they are claiming otherwise then they are full of it.
Having said that I think you are overthinking things with the peeking vs looking thing. Pick your spot, and then execute your serve.
Also sounds like you were playing dubs, in which case picking your spot is much more about what you and your partner at net are planning to do, angles, and the relative strengths of the receiver (e.g. FH vs BH). Where the receiver is standing is less material. And where the receiver thinks you think the receiver is standing is immaterial

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

i do the same thing. i wear a cap/visor and peek under it to see where they are shifted. i also don't like them to see my eyes and where i'm targeting my serve either.

Your opponents likely can't see your eyes from 80' away possibly looking into the sun.

What they can see is where your head is pointed.

I look [not peek] to see where my opponent is standing. If he's too far off to one side, I consider serving to the other side. If he's baiting me, I'll figure that out and adjust. My opponent seeing my eyes doesn't make it on my list of concerns. I'm much more concerned about getting the serve in with decent pace/spin and placement.

 

[R1FF]

You just need to see that they are ready before you start your motion. If they are claiming otherwise then they are full of it.
Having said that I think you are overthinking things with the peeking vs looking thing. Pick your spot, and then execute your serve.
Also sounds like you were playing dubs, in which case picking your spot is much more about what you and your partner at net are planning to do, angles, and the relative strengths of the receiver (e.g. FH vs BH). Where the receiver is standing is less material. And where the receiver thinks you think the receiver is standing is immaterial

It might seem like Im overthinking it. But when Im receiver, I take full mental note of all the cues a server gives. Most opponents have a ton of tells. Some, dead obvious.

Considering my serve is a huge strength in my game, that allows me to compete against players way above my skill level (and pace), I am gonna stick with it.

My tosses are identical. My foot placement. My arm action. I put a lotta work into it. It has served me well.

Again, maybe Im overthinking it. Or maybe Im not. The level of tennis I aspire too demands this sorta manic thought process.

 

[Chalkdust]

It might seem like Im overthinking it. But when Im receiver, I take full mental note of all the cues a server gives. Most opponents have a ton of tells. Some, dead obvious.

Considering my serve is a huge strength in my game, that allows me to compete against players way above my skill level (and pace), I am gonna stick with it.

My tosses are identical. My foot placement. My arm action. I put a lotta work into it. It has served me well.

Again, maybe Im overthinking it. Or maybe Im not. The level of tennis I aspire too demands this sorta manic thought process.

Hey if it's working for you, then more power to you!

Just to be clear though, I am not minimizing the importance of being able to disguise your intended service location and being able to hit your spot. Yes, some opponents have tells that let you anticipate where the serve is coming - not ideal. Whereas you can hit different spots using the same toss and action - great.

What I'm saying is that when deciding on your spot, there are many factors that you should consider... and where the receiver thinks you think he is standing is so far down on that list so as to be inconsequential.

BTW, if you are able to consistently hit your spots on serve, you are likely to get better results by having your partner signaling serve location to you. (Or you telling him before the point.) The advantage of having your partner know your serve location far outweighs any 'reads' you think you might be getting from the receiver's return position.

 

[R1FF]

BTW, if you are able to consistently hit your spots on serve, you are likely to get better results by having your partner signaling serve location to you. (Or you telling him before the point.) The advantage of having your partner know your serve location far outweighs any 'reads' you think you might be getting from the receiver's return position.

I can hit my spots on command. But I wouldn’t leave that decision of where to go up to my teammate.

I dont like putting my serve pattern in the hands of my teammate. They’re as easy to predict as anyone else.

Often times I will be serving a certain way, to set a foundation in the opponents head, that I can exploit 2-3 games down the road. My teammate is not thinking with this sorta depth.

Tbh, I cant remember the last time a returner hit a clean/crisp return back on me. They’re often lunging at the ball or hitting a safe return back. If my teammate can stay alert & active at the net, it’s an easy putaway.

The two times Ive been paired with a 4.5 level player was the easiest service games of my life. I told them my general placements, asked them to be aggressive at net, and then did my thing. They were just happy that i had a plan. It made their lives a lot easier. Yes, a bit unorthadox in that I didnt let them call the specific play. But they understood the general plan and it was very effective because they get to poach easy ball after easy ball.

 

[OnTheLine]

I can hit my spots on command. But I wouldn’t leave that decision of where to go up to my teammate.

I dont like putting my serve pattern in the hands of my teammate. They’re as easy to predict as anyone else.

Often times I will be serving a certain way, to set a foundation in the opponents head, that I can exploit 2-3 games down the road. My teammate is not thinking with this sorta depth.

Tbh, I cant remember the last time a returner hit a clean/crisp return back on me. They’re often lunging at the ball or hitting a safe return back. If my teammate can stay alert & active at the net, it’s an easy putaway.

The two times Ive been paired with a 4.5 level player was the easiest service games of my life. I told them my general placements, asked them to be aggressive at net, and then did my thing. They were just happy that i had a plan. It made their lives a lot easier. Yes, a bit unorthadox in that I didnt let them call the specific play. But they understood the general plan and it was very effective because they get to poach easy ball after easy ball.

Wow, you have no faith in your partner at all.

I absolutely want to know if my partner is going to serve T, Body or Wide .... but I also like planned poaches and set "plays"

If I have told my server that I am poaching and then they suddenly hit a wide serve because they want to do what they want to do .... we are so dead. So, so dead.

 

[R1FF]

Wow, you have no faith in your partner at all.

True. I dont. I trust me. And I ask that my partner have faith in me as well.

Considering that most 4.0 and lower players are just trying to hit their serves in & hard, Im not going to put the chess decisions in their hands. I havent come across any that actually have a real deep plan. And if they are going for placement, their cues are so obvious that it's not a surprise where they are going with the ball.

And just to be clear, I still havent found a regular partner to play doubles with. These are often random pairings at training/hitting sessions. I have to error on the side of caution. The 4.5 level players I've paired with, once they understood my plan and trusted me, loved it and let me do my thing. As I said, they were just happy I had a plan because, in their words, most at my level do not.

I absolutely want to know if my partner is going to serve T, Body or Wide .... but I also like planned poaches and set "plays"

Our play is always planned poach. I tell them that pre-match. I'll set them up with a weak ball from the returner & it's a quick service game if they do their job.

If I have told my server that I am poaching and then they suddenly hit a wide serve because they want to do what they want to do .... we are so dead. So, so dead.

Maybe in your case. Not in mine. My wide serve is not something that gets hit back with much pace or effectiveness. It more often ends up in the net.

 

[Chalkdust]

I can hit my spots on command. But I wouldn’t leave that decision of where to go up to my teammate.

I dont like putting my serve pattern in the hands of my teammate. They’re as easy to predict as anyone else.

Often times I will be serving a certain way, to set a foundation in the opponents head, that I can exploit 2-3 games down the road. My teammate is not thinking with this sorta depth.

Tbh, I cant remember the last time a returner hit a clean/crisp return back on me. They’re often lunging at the ball or hitting a safe return back. If my teammate can stay alert & active at the net, it’s an easy putaway.

The two times Ive been paired with a 4.5 level player was the easiest service games of my life. I told them my general placements, asked them to be aggressive at net, and then did my thing. They were just happy that i had a plan. It made their lives a lot easier. Yes, a bit unorthadox in that I didnt let them call the specific play. But they understood the general plan and it was very effective because they get to poach easy ball after easy ball.

That's equally good - you communicating to your partner where you're going to serve rather than let them make the decision. Either way the important thing is that your partner knows where you are going to serve. But then you are committed to that location (well at least trying to hit that location; results are never guaranteed!) which means you don't get to change the play after communicating to your partner.

I'm a 4.5 and often play with 3.5 partners at club socials. If they can tell me where they are going to serve (and can execute on a somewhat regular basis), that's great - helps me help them hold their serve. If they don't feel comfortable calling their spots, ok, I will try be opportunistic even though it will be a bit more reactive. Worst is if they call their spots but never make them (because they are incapable, or they just keep changing their minds at the line), because then I'm leaning a certain way given the expected serve location and then can more easily get wrong-footed.

 

[Chalkdust]

Maybe in your case. Not in mine. My wide serve is not something that gets hit back with much pace or effectiveness. It more often ends up in the net.

Another case where if it's working for you, then great, but generally speaking one should be serving down the middle on planned poaches. The angles are much more favorable that way.
If your wide serve is so good where they can't actually do anything with it, then ok I guess, but then it really doesn't matter whether your partner poaches or not, you're going to have an easy put away regardless.

 

[R1FF]

Another case where if it's working for you, then great, but generally speaking one should be serving down the middle on planned poaches. The angles are much more favorable that way.
If your wide serve is so good where they can't actually do anything with it, then ok I guess, but then it really doesn't matter whether your partner poaches or not, you're going to have an easy put away regardless.

I’d rather they get the poach. They’re in a better position to do so.

Let me stay super focused on my serve. They stay ready to cover any angle. Ignore the alley, the return aint going there, or at least, hasnt in months.

I do like to S&V. But if Im playing with a good teammate, their netplay is better than mine. So I prefer we play to our strengths. By me not always charging in, I can save it for big points and surpise the returner. Putting pressure on them and forcing errors in their panic.

I have a hitting partner that lately when we plays singles matches has gone to exclusive S&V because he can no longer keep up if he rallies with me. So he religiously charges the net in an effort to pressure me. It totally loses it’s effect after a few. I just relax, and hit to the open court.

In doubles, it’s similar. If someone is on auto S&V I just get used to it and it becomes very ineffective imo. I think a element of surprise goes a long ways in S&V. Otherwise I get in a rhythm and just keep blasting BH’s at them. They’re in a totally defensive position at net. Their volleys arent gonna be well placed. And if they bunt a ball back, my teammate at net is gonna poach it.

I think a lotta doubles players are too quick to come to net. I think there should be some critical thinking involved. There’s a time to get in a rally. And obviously a time to come to net. But to automatically come to net, could leave a player in a bad position in most cases. I think one should only come to net if they’ve hit a quality shot that put the receiver on the defensive. Or if the serve was that good, of which most are not S&V worthy imo.