Serving information ...

[Davis937]

Based on your experience (or you can speak from your own personal perspective), what kind of FIRST serve do most 4.0 players use (flat, slice, topspin / slice, etc)? What would you estimate is their first serve speed? What kind of SECOND serve do they use (kicker, slice, topspin, etc.). Again, what is the estimated speed of their second serve? Finally, what do you feel is the primary difference between the serve of a 4.0 player compared to the serve of a 4.5 player? Thank you in advance for your responses / comments.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I've seen it all in 4.0 tennis, from flat bombs followed by push seconds to all slices to all kicks to every combination of the above. 4.5s tend to have better serves, and you don't tend to see anymore push serves. But a strong serving 4.0 can have a better serve than a 4.5 whose serve is his weakness.

 

[martini1]

I don't see a lot of adult rec players 3.5-4.0 uses the flat serve enough. The percentage is too low perhaps. A lot of people uses a slice or kick as their first serve, and then a toned down ver for their second. Some lower 3.5 even uses the same weak serves for both. Some female players use a low toss flat serve that is not fast at all but with some accuracy. These serves are sometimes hit with a fh grip as well.

 

[Davis937]

I've seen it all in 4.0 tennis, from flat bombs followed by push seconds to all slices to all kicks to every combination of the above. 4.5s tend to have better serves, and you don't tend to see anymore push serves. But a strong serving 4.0 can have a better serve than a 4.5 whose serve is his weakness.

Thanks, TS … was wondering specifically what you mean by 4.5s having "better serves" … also … do some 4.0s actually have push serves?

 

[Davis937]

Hey, TS … forgot to ask: based on your experience, about how fast do 4.0s serve. How about 4.5s? Thanks ...

 

[Davis937]

I don't see a lot of adult rec players 3.5-4.0 uses the flat serve enough. The percentage is too low perhaps. A lot of people uses a slice or kick as their first serve, and then a toned down ver for their second. Some lower 3.5 even uses the same weak serves for both. Some female players use a low toss flat serve that is not fast at all but with some accuracy. These serves are sometimes hit with a fh grip as well.

You're probably right, martini. Flat serve generally is a pretty low percentage serve. I don't know too many people who use the kicker for their first serve … more in doubles, I suppose. At the 4.0 level the kicker can be vulnerable (more spin, less pace, and not much kick). Maybe more of a weapon at 4.5 level.

 

[Davis937]

From my experience, seems like a lot of 4.0s use the slice / topspin as a first serve (more than the slice or flat) … what do you folks think?

 

[mightyrick]

From my experience, at 4.0 I see a lot of flat first serves or a few guys seem to try an aggressive slice out wide on the deuce side. The second serves seem to be either top/slice or kick.

First serve speeds probably average around 85-90mph. Second serve speeds maybe 75mph.

Although maybe more important than the type of serve or pace, the thing I see at 4.0 is that many guys can actually hit their spots and place the ball. You really have to be on your toes and should be coming forward, and mini-split-stepping to return many of these 4.0 serves.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Thanks, TS … was wondering specifically what you mean by 4.5s having "better serves" … also … do some 4.0s actually have push serves?

4.5s just tend to have better power, placement, spin, etc. And yes, some 4.0s push their seconds. 70 mph pushes with some placement as opposed to 50 mph pushes in the middle of the box but still pushes.

Hey, TS … forgot to ask: based on your experience, about how fast do 4.0s serve. How about 4.5s? Thanks ...

Pretty big range of speeds. Maybe a few 4.0s can bomb one 110, but realistically firsts and seconds are under 100. The thing to remember is that spin plays a big role, so even pros average 110 firsts and 90 seconds even though they can break 130 or even 140 if they want.

 

[Ballinbob]

The serve speeds vary a ton... And to be honest, I don't think it's that important

There are two 4.5's here both ranked in the top 10 in the state. One of them can hit 120mph no problem and the other one has a 60mph spin serve. By the way, the guy with the 60mph spin serve has a winning record over the guy who serves 120mph. Point is, just focus on improving your serve as much as you can and the rest will fall into place. I wouldn't really worry about serve speed too much. If you're curious to how fast you serve get a radar, otherwise don't worry about it

You won't get some magic answer from here. It's not like if you can serve 100mph then you're a 4.5 or whatever

 

[corbind]

Well, even if someone told you a 55, 65, 75, or 85 mph slice ....

• Do you know which is which when you are in a match?
• What would you do if you did?

I am also curious what others think is the most prominent serve for a first and a second serve.

 

[PhrygianDominant]

It seems the lower the level the more variety there is. As I slowly improve, the variety in serves gets less as they get better overall. The good rec players at my club usually have a flatter first and a spinnier second, and very few have a true kick second serve. Beyond that there is a lot of variation. The pros and semi pros at my club have their favorite serves, but they can hit all of them well.

 

[Davis937]

It seems the lower the level the more variety there is. As I slowly improve, the variety in serves gets less as they get better overall. The good rec players at my club usually have a flatter first and a spinnier second, and very few have a true kick second serve. Beyond that there is a lot of variation. The pros and semi pros at my club have their favorite serves, but they can hit all of them well.

I'm actually a little surprised that these better players try to hit flat on their first serve … primarily because the flat percentage is usually significantly lower than a spin serve. Seems to me that most first serves are topspin/slice.

 

[Davis937]

The serve speeds vary a ton... And to be honest, I don't think it's that important

There are two 4.5's here both ranked in the top 10 in the state. One of them can hit 120mph no problem and the other one has a 60mph spin serve. By the way, the guy with the 60mph spin serve has a winning record over the guy who serves 120mph. Point is, just focus on improving your serve as much as you can and the rest will fall into place. I wouldn't really worry about serve speed too much. If you're curious to how fast you serve get a radar, otherwise don't worry about it

You won't get some magic answer from here. It's not like if you can serve 100mph then you're a 4.5 or whatever

Thanks, BB … I was assuming (probably mistakenly) that the pace of a 4.5 serve is always faster than a 4.0s. Again, our preoccupation with speed/pace ...

 

[Davis937]

4.5s just tend to have better power, placement, spin, etc. And yes, some 4.0s push their seconds. 70 mph pushes with some placement as opposed to 50 mph pushes in the middle of the box but still pushes.



Pretty big range of speeds. Maybe a few 4.0s can bomb one 110, but realistically firsts and seconds are under 100. The thing to remember is that spin plays a big role, so even pros average 110 firsts and 90 seconds even though they can break 130 or even 140 if they want.

… thanks, Topspin. BTW, in your estimation … what is the general first serve percentage for 4.0s … how about for 4.5s? Does this percentage vary depending on the individual playing singles or doubles?

 

[rufus_smith]

The typical NTRP 4.0 hits his fastest flat serve around 85 MPH, and his slice serve averages around 65 to 70 MPH.

check out http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2007/11/informal-stroke-speed-survey-of-us.html

 

[Davis937]

The typical NTRP 4.0 hits his fastest flat serve around 85 MPH, and his slice serve averages around 65 to 70 MPH.

check out http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2007/11/informal-stroke-speed-survey-of-us.html

… thanks, rufus. Interesting article -- appreciate the information!

 

[corbind]

As a general rule, the higher the NTRP the better the quality of the serve. They're correlated. Also the faster and flatter the serve the smaller the window of opportunity to get it in. As such it takes increasing skill to get them in. I'd estimate serves get faster as skill level rises. The extra thousands of serves hit breed proficiency.

I don't know what you guys see out there, but my eyes see a difference in the 4.0+ serves between singles and doubles. Singles players often go for big first serves. Doubles players take pace off to get that first one in. Perhaps some of that is due to needing to get to the net and slower serves buy time.

 

[Davis937]

As a general rule, the higher the NTRP the better the quality of the serve. They're correlated. Also the faster and flatter the serve the smaller the window of opportunity to get it in. As such it takes increasing skill to get them in.
I'd estimate serves get faster as skill level rises. The extra thousands of serves hit breed proficiency.

Are you saying that as the NTRP rating goes higher, the likelihood of seeing more flat serves also increases?

I don't know what you guys see out there, but my eyes see a difference in the 4.0+ serves between singles and doubles. Singles players often go for big first serves. Doubles players take pace off to get that first one in. Perhaps some of that is due to needing to get to the net and slower serves buy time.

I agree … I notice more "bigger" serves in singles. The importance of getting the first serve "in", in doubles seems higher than in singles (although also important in singles). Yes, more spin first serves in doubles …

 

[corbind]

Yea, I'd say flatter first serves become more prevalent as skill level goes up in a player's game. Sure there's a range of levels where'd this would be true. If we say there are more flat serves at 2.0 tennis or 3.0 tennis? Dunno, but I'd guess at those levels they are just trying to get the darn ball in and don't know how to spin all that much.

Ya figure most guys will be somewhere from 3.5, 4.0, to 4.5 max in their life. If you're a 5.0 you need to spend more time with the wife and kids. If you're still a 3.0 after ten years you need to find a more suitable sport. But as a guy progresses from 3.5 to 4.5 I'd expect to see the ability to hit flat bombs IN to go way up.

Still, having that ability does not mean it will be used a ton. Flat serves are easier to return than slower spinny ones. I detest it when I go to all the trouble to hit a bomb flat first and a guy just blocks it back. I'll hit a crappy spinny serve and those get shanked. Go figure. All in all I get a ton, ton more points off of spinny serves.

Conjecture too but I'd say a guy in his 20's will crack a lot more flat firsts than a guy in his 40's. Crushing serves is fun when young but not as satisfying decades later.

 

[anubis]

Based on your experience (or you can speak from your own personal perspective), what kind of FIRST serve do most 4.0 players use (flat, slice, topspin / slice, etc)? What would you estimate is their first serve speed? What kind of SECOND serve do they use (kicker, slice, topspin, etc.). Again, what is the estimated speed of their second serve? Finally, what do you feel is the primary difference between the serve of a 4.0 player compared to the serve of a 4.5 player? Thank you in advance for your responses / comments.

All the good/successful players that I meet and play with, everyone from a 2.5 up to a 5.0, have a flat first serve. Anyone that I know with a spinny 1st and 2nd serve tend to do poorly in matches.

Just my experience.

 

[Davis937]

All the good/successful players that I meet and play with, everyone from a 2.5 up to a 5.0, have a flat first serve. Anyone that I know with a spinny 1st and 2nd serve tend to do poorly in matches.

Just my experience.

My experience is just the opposite … I see few flat first serves -- mostly topspin / slice first serves and topspin / kicker second serves. But … as the point was made earlier … it kinda depends if you play singles or doubles. I'm more a doubles player ...

 

[GuyClinch]

I don't think good players really hit flat serves - what they are hitting is a topspin slice serve with the ball tossed well into the court.

The only people hitting flat serves are rec guys who use an eastern forehand grip. That will give you a flat serve..

 

[Davis937]

Calling for ladies to respond ...

So, how about for you ladies … is your first and second serve selection (at the 4.0 and 4.5 levels) similar to the men -- i.e., see a lot of top spin / slice serves for first serves and topspin / kickers for the second serve?