Serving shoulder - low power

[mrrockstar]

I never made a powerful serve no matter how hard I throw the racket to hit the ball.

I found out today maybe because everytime I serve, my power is mostly generated by the arm (after racket drop)

i.e. use my arm bring my shoulder to rotate,
instead of
rotating shoulder then bring the energy to arm to hit.

am I right?

I think serving is the same mechanics as forward groundstroke, rotate the torso, then transfer the kinetic energy to arm to hit.

am I right?

Thanks!

 

[Xizel]

Knee bend and leg push is where you get your power.

 

[mucat]

I never made a powerful serve no matter how hard I throw the racket to hit the ball.

I found out today maybe because everytime I serve, my power is mostly generated by the arm (after racket drop)

i.e. use my arm bring my shoulder to rotate,
instead of
rotating shoulder then bring the energy to arm to hit.

am I right?

I think serving is the same mechanics as forward groundstroke, rotate the torso, then transfer the kinetic energy to arm to hit.

am I right?

Thanks!

I think someone just had an epiphany.

It is all about how fast you can swing your arm with your shoulder/body.

 

[mightyrick]

The serving motion is not a ground stroke motion. It is a throwing motion. Very similar to a baseball or cricket pitching motion.

Several articles and videos on the web talk about a "mental block" that people have with regards to serving in tennis. (BTW, the same "mental block" occurs in baseball pitching.) People are so conscious about hitting the ball out that they start trying to "place" the ball. That causes people to slow down their motion into a more "controlled" motion.

If you want to get over that mental block, you can try a good drill I read about on another site. From the baseline, try to hit serves at the far-side fence -- without touching the ground. Have no regard for where you hit the back fence. Just "let it rip".

If you already have a proper serving grip, stance, and follow-through, then releasing your mind from the notion of placement should allow your body should respond with a much more natural, whipping service motion. If you are repeatedly able to hit a ball at the back fence, then start to concentrate on hitting the ball to a low point on the back fence. Then at the place where the fence meets the ground.

But you really need to get the feeling of letting go and crushing the ball. Get used to that. Then, retain that feeling but start trying to aim the ball a little. Again, don't worry about getting it in. Just aim it and try to get close.

 

[mucat]

I think OP is talking about the kinetic chain. In this sense, serving and FH are very similar. Both has sort of a "whipping" motion.

 

[LeeD]

Kinetic chain is one part, moving forwards is another, utilizing the correct form another, and certainly the high elbow high hand finish to allow the rackethead to fully accelerate another.

 

[TimothyO]

I've been completely focused on my serve these last few weeks. Here's what I've learned as a fellow noob:

- Think of your head/neck as the central axis around which your shoulders rotate.

- Assuming you're right handed, your left should starts high post-toss and your right shoulder starts low with your shoulders in line with the target point.

- Your shoulders rotate smoothly on this tilted plane to generate controllable, repeatable power

- Keeping your arm loose, after the racquet drop to the "back scratch" position, the shoulders rotate and the arm "unfolds" smoothly into contact with the ball in a throwing motion starting edge-on as if you're going to chop the ball in half with the edge of the racquet

- As contact is made the forearm pronates rapidly so racquet faces the direction of your shot just before the edge would have made contact with the ball.

- Continuing post-contact the palm is facing outward to your right and the racquet head is now pointing "down", almost like an upside down U. This allows you to safely decelerate the racquet across your body.

Essentially your core muscles are powering your trunk and shoulders to spin on a plane tilted upward in the direction of the target point. This powerful core "whips" the loose arm into contact as it unfolds at a consistent distance.

It's like a golf swing in that by making contact by turning the shoulders and extending the arm you get a arm/racquet hitting appendage of consistent length. Hitting with the arm bent and the shoulders rotated to varying degrees means you can't be consistent.

Doing this smoothly and even at slow-moderate pace generates a surprising about of power while remaining accurate.

edit: forgot to add: I find starting the shoulder turn and arm-unfolding slower and then accelerating results in more consistency while remaining powerful. Don't try to accelerate to full speed all at once from the racquet drop. Accelerate smoothly!

 

[fuzz nation]

Aside from the thought of rotation around a vertical axis in reference to the shoulders, etc., I think it's also important to consider another type of shoulder movement to help with the drive through the ball. It's sort of a swimming motion that helps to power that upward sort of throw of the racquet. This is different from a more horizontal throw of something like a baseball.

The drive up toward the ball with the racquet arm can be amplified by deliberately pulling the front arm/shoulder downward. The rotational axis of this component is more horizontal, but I think it can be helpful for getting a good image for the direction of the "throw", which is up and over the top.

It can be bad if that leading arm and shoulder drop down early, since it can encourage more bowing over at the waist and dropping the ball into the net. Otherwise, this piece of the motion can help to make energy and steer some hitters away from leaving that tossing arm up for too long.

 

[charliefedererer]

You need a bigger "windup" to hit "with your whole body" using the "kinetic chain", just like Sampras does in the photos above.

For the bigger windup, keep bringing your tossing arm up and up and up even after the release of the ball (photos 1-6).

AT THE SAME TIME as your arm is going up and up and up, your upper body is forming the shape of a bow, [as seen from the side (photos 3-6)] and AT THE SAME TIME you are bending your knees and turning away from the ball (coiling).

Notice your goal is that at the end of your trophy position (photo 6) your heels should be way off the ground, and you shoulde be bending so your chest points at the ball, not because you are arching your back, but because your upper body is bent back from the knees.

Jumping straight up (photos 7-9) will have that chest pointing up at the ball, as your racquet drops down from the force of your jump up.

Now you can finally swing starting at photo 9.

But your swing now is not powered just by your arm. Your jump is pushing you up at the ball. And in photos 10-12 you are powered by "cartwheeling" your upper body forard to "reverse the bow shape", even at the same time you are uncoiling.

Some videos to help learn these movements:
Robin Söderling serve slowmotion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56pvP1i6x8
"Up the Mountain" excerpt form Serve Doctor presents: MPH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
Brent Abel of www.WebTennis.net demonstrates the necessary "tempo" for your serve tossing arm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8&feature=channel
Watch how Federer, Murray, Hass, Hewitt, Davydenko, Safin, Tsonga all make the same move when tossing the ball. Keys to a good toss: Upper body turn during the backswing, hang on to the ball by the finger tips, follow through after releasing the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k:
When you prepare to serve, leading with the hip in the trophy pose will help you get your core muscles into the serve, letting you hit the tennis ball a little bit harder. Using as many muscles as possible when you serve, or almost any other shot in tennis, is extremely important -- leading with the hip is a tip that will help you do that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgeYmEScfgQ

 

[mental midget]

Knee bend and leg push is where you get your power.

not trying to start something here, but in the spirit of accuracy, leg drive is a relatively minor contributor to overall serve power. hip forward move into the ball and a 'live arm' account for the majority of your acceleration.

 

[LeeD]

Live arm for sure.
Hip forward archer's bow and body moving forwards is about the same added benefits.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

not trying to start something here, but in the spirit of accuracy, leg drive is a relatively minor contributor to overall serve power. hip forward move into the ball and a 'live arm' account for the majority of your acceleration.

While a significant knee bend and leg drive are not the primary factors in serve power, they can generate 10-20% of the overall power. The real contribution of a good knee bend and leg drive is that it will allow the server to generate greater power with less stress on the shoulder and other links in the chain. If the legs and trunk contribute very little to power generation, more demand are placed on the shoulder and other parts of the arm to generate that power.

 

[GuyClinch]

No offense but its unlikely the difference between a big serve and small one is just using the rest of your body. Yes it adds power to incorporate your whole body and its the right thing to do..

But what people aren't telling you that they should be is that people can and do hit big serves with limited lower body/hip involvement. Much the way a shortstop can still sling the ball across the diamond - a good server can generate significant power without a ton of leg drive. These guys 'arm' the ball with significant force. Yeah its not all arm but they aren't loading up their legs like a pitcher can.

Likewise I have seen some pros hit some nice kickers from their knees. So its not all about leg drive and such.. Wheel chair players can hit some hard serves as well. I'd toss a football around and work on your throwing motion. That's going to train your body automatically to do alot of the right things..

The hit the ball to the fence drill that someone mentioned is a good one as well...So is throwing an old racquet..

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Actually we have said much of this before in previous threads.

The wheelchair guys that I've seen with big serves have some pretty beefy shoulders/arms. Throwing a football around can be of some benefit. However, to throw a long bomb, leg drive (w/moderate knee bend) and body rotation is employed.

Racquet throwing is even better than football throwing since the mechanics are somewhat different. Try some tomahawk throws with the racquet. Follow this with some pronated throws as some brushed throws. Some throws should be at 45 degrees or so. Follow this with steeper throws (75-80 degrees) to make sure that you are getting a decent racquet head drop for your service action.

 

[Zefer]

I think Murray's serve is a great demonstration of the full-body rotation/movement that is required to generate a big serve! If it was all about arm strength then body-builders would have the biggest serves, and they don't!

Take Roddick for example:

There's millions and millions of guys with bigger bicep/tricep/shoulders than him, but none with a bigger serve!

In terms of what muscles actually do help with the serve is probably the legs and core muscles, but as with everything in tennis - technique always wins over physical strength.

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^That was alot of typing for nothing. Arm strength in sports just talks about how hard a guy can throw the ball - especially when his legs are involved in the throw..

Like a shortstop jumping up and throwing across the diamond in mid air or a quarterback throwing across his body on the run etc etc.

Yeah its not about how big the muscles are - Pedro Martinez was a tiny guy but could throw as hard as you could imagine back in the day..