Serving with a wooden racquet (Dunlop Maxply Fort)

[serve/and/volley]

This is the first video as a part of my wooden racquet (racket) project. Got inspired by videos of McEnroe, Borg, Connors, Vitas, Ashe, Laver, Gonzales, etc. Recently got a Dunlop Maxply Fort on e-Bay (4 5/8 gripsize, even though it feels like a 4 1/2); came with a wooden brace, but is still slightly warped. Strung it with cheap synthetic gut @ 55 lbs. Damn thing weighs nearly 15 ounces. Because of the weight, my shoulder isn't strong enough to serve at 100% speed and power. I can't bend my knees too much otherwise I can't control the racquet because I get off-balance. Notice how my motion is not completely fluid (slight pause) due to my discomfort with the weight of the racquet. Since I can't swing too hard, I tried to let the weight of the racquet do most of the work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKlbVEUZ3MA

This racquet is very exhausting to play with. I have much greater respect for the old school guys. Incredible how they could play high-level tennis with these things. Any tips on improving my serve with this Maxply Fort beast is greatly appreciated.

 

[Dominik]

They key to this will be fluidity in your motions, as well as letting the racket do the work (after it's set in motion by your shoulder rotation).

I have a wooden racket I sometimes hit around with and I *love* it. If I could find more of them more easily, I would ditch my prostaff 85s and just play with it all the time. It's SOOO smooth, so solid, and just such a nice feeling in general.

After playing with it for a while and switching back to a PS85 the prostaffs feel too light, and not nearly solid enough...

 

[NamRanger]

I've hit with a wood raccquet a few times, the hardest part is trying to get the racquet moving forward and to the hitting phase. Once you can get the racquet moving forward though, you don't have to do any work at all. The weight will do the rest of the work for you.



That's a problem I have with alot of lighter graphite racquets; they simply do not have enough weight behind them for me.

 

[serve/and/volley]

After hitting with the Maxply Fort, I noticed that the racquet absords ALL shock. Once I got used to the weight, this racquet feels REALLY good! Volleys are very solid with incredible control once they are struck properly. The one major downside I notice is the return of serve. I have A LOT of trouble with 110+ mph serves and high kick serves with the woodie (they are hard in general, but relatively a lot easier with a 90+ sq. in. racquet). If I don't take a few steps behind the baseline, I shank the returns like crazy! This is the huge difference I notice between woodies and the larger graphite racquets: the return of serve!

Even Agassi with his superhuman eyes used a 100+ sq. in. racquet for his superhuman return of serves. To me, Jimmy Connors has the best return of serves because he was using really small racquet heads, as well as that Wilson T-1000 metal beast! And he played against Roscoe Tanner, McEnroe, etc. who regularly hit 100+ mph serves.

 

[BreakPoint]

After hitting with the Maxply Fort, I noticed that the racquet absords ALL shock. Once I got used to the weight, this racquet feels REALLY good! Volleys are very solid with incredible control once they are struck properly. The one major downside I notice is the return of serve. I have A LOT of trouble with 110+ mph serves and high kick serves with the woodie (they are hard in general, but relatively a lot easier with a 90+ sq. in. racquet). If I don't take a few steps behind the baseline, I shank the returns like crazy! This is the huge difference I notice between woodies and the larger graphite racquets: the return of serve!

Even Agassi with his superhuman eyes used a 100+ sq. in. racquet for his superhuman return of serves. To me, Jimmy Connors has the best return of serves because he was using really small racquet heads, as well as that Wilson T-1000 metal beast! And he played against Roscoe Tanner, McEnroe, etc. who regularly hit 100+ mph serves.

OK, a few things:

1. Now you know why serve and volley is dead in modern tennis - the returns with modern racquets are just too good.

2. Connors used a T-2000, not T-1000.

3. McEnroe never hit a serve over 100mph with a wood racquet. His serves were effective because he's a lefty and and he put tremendous slice on the ball which opened up the court and he backed it up with great volleying skills.

BTW, I used a Dunlop Maxply Fort for 12 years and I swear I used to hit more aces with it back then than I can today with my graphite racquets. And I agree with you that after playing with a wood racquet for a while, going back to a racquet like the K90 makes it feel like a lightweight toothpick and a toy. :shock:

 

[serve/and/volley]

I recall hearing that Sampras and Philippoussis played an exhibition with woodies, and they were serving 120+ mph! Any more info, links, video on this? These guys don't have very many rallies when they play against each other with their regular racquets, I can't imagine much rallies with the woodies! Can you imagine returning 120+ mph serves with a woodie? It's hard enough with larger graphite frames!

 

[35ft6]

^ Not an exhibition, but they hit with a wooden racket for a Tennis magazine article. And yeah, from what I remember, their speeds were very close to what they served with their regular rackets. Of course, their serves were probably way less heavy.

Agassi has always said that new rackets helped the smaller guys and returners more than the tall servers.

 

[Datacipher]

I recall hearing that Sampras and Philippoussis played an exhibition with woodies, and they were serving 120+ mph! Any more info, links, video on this? These guys don't have very many rallies when they play against each other with their regular racquets, I can't imagine much rallies with the woodies! Can you imagine returning 120+ mph serves with a woodie? It's hard enough with larger graphite frames!

Phillippoussis played with a wood racquet, an extra-long light widebody and his regular frame in an informal test for Tennis Magazine. He took a few min. to adjust, first he kept hitting the back fence with the widebody and his first wood serves were pitiful eg. like 80 mph.
After a few min. He adjusted to each one. In the end, the average of his fastest serves with each racquet were 122mph with the wood, 124 mph with his racquet, 126?(would have to double check the 126) with the extra long.

Sampras has played more than one exhibition with wood racquets. They only did this as a fun novelty for a several points, not the whole exhibition. Sampras hit in the 120's against Courier with the wood. He also played Mcenroe a couple of times with the wood. I saw some of the points. Extremely entertaining, both men were just fooling around, playing angles and drop shots and lobs. However, Sampras, at one point, decided to go for a first serve, and impressed everyone, including Mac with a 124mph ace.

I was going to tell you that I have fooled around with wood racquets for fun many times. I find serving the easiest with them. I have served 117mph with a wood racquet and that is faster than my average with graphite. It just takes a bit of time to adjust, but wood can serve very well. Maybe I'll post a vid of me, taken a year ago, where, after a workout, I hit a few serves with a warped wooden Dunlop just given to me....but the vid, is blurry and poor, I only took the video because I had just replaced my cell that same day with a new Sony cell, so I was trying two new things at once(camera and warped woody!) haha! Yes, it is the other strokes that are much harder to hit with wood. Though if you have strength and racquet head speed, you can hit huge topspin groundies with wood (so that is also a myth), but it does take a lot of energy. Returning a big serve with wood, is indeed, quite a challenge. I have returned 120+mph serves regularly with my racquets, but my hand-eye simply isn't good enough with wood. Not good enough at all :-(

@Breakpoint, Mcenroe almost certainly served over 100mph with the wood racquet. Mcenroe was hitting (by today's radar) between 115 and 125mph with his graphite, you don't take that much of a hit with wood.

 

[Datacipher]

^ Not an exhibition, but they hit with a wooden racket for a Tennis magazine article. And yeah, from what I remember, their speeds were very close to .

Flipper was in the magazine. Sampras has done it in exhibitions. Also note, Luke Jensen sometimes hauls out a wood racquet during exhibitions and does various trick shots with it. But he can still wollop a huge serve with it, which he also sometimes does to shock people!

I recall watching one broadcast where he blew a huge ace past Monica Seles with the wood racquet, and then much to Seles' embarassment, gloated wildly (he was miked) yelling at Seles that she was aced by the "chrissie Evert"! Actually have that one on tape somewhere...funny exhibition, and a telling display of the disparity in ability between the "fooling around" Jensens vs Seles/Kournikova.

 

[serve/and/volley]

Thanks for the info! Also I notice that it is a lot more difficult to hit high bouncing kick serves. I'm hitting the frame a lot. I can only get the high bouncing kick if I hit it just almost perfect, whereas first serves I have a little more margin for error. Hence for this damn racquet, my first serves are more consistent than my second. What??? I don't understand???

I remember watching a Wimbledon DVD of Borg v. Gerulaitis, and I recall that Gerulaitis' 2nd serve had a pretty good kick. Any one know more about Gerulatis, and also does any one know other players in the same era who served high bouncing kick serves with a woodie?

 

[Mick]

in your opinion, how much higher your level has to be over your opponent's level in order to beat him convincingly with a wood racquet (with him using a modern racquet)? 0.5 or 1 level higher?

I think you should have no problem if you are one level higher but i am not so sure about 0.5 level higher.

 

[serve/and/volley]

in your opinion, how much higher your level has to be over your opponent's level in order to beat him convincingly with a wood racquet (with him using a modern racquet)? 0.5 or 1 level higher?

I think you should have no problem if you are one level higher but i am not so sure about 0.5 level higher.

I honestly think the whole NTRP self-rating system is flawed. I've met so many players who claim 5.5, 5.0, 4.5, and 4.0, when they are really at least 1 whole level lower. The only players I've met that were honest are the ones who competed at Division I level and foreign players who had a verifiable ATP ranking. There are too many people who claim 5.0+ status that clearly have never trained properly.

So to answer your question, I don't know. What I do know is this: people that I can regularly beat, I can also beat with my woodie, and people that I can't beat, I can never beat with my woodie. Here is also another curious phenomenon: some players get really intimidated by the woodie, and sometimes just its very presence causes them to play worse. Hence some people won't hit with me anymore unless I use my modern racquets. Have you ever encountered this? I've never found anyone that plays with a woodie, but I would like to someday. Old school tennis can be a lot of fun!

 

[NLBwell]

With a smooth fluid stroke you should be able to hit your serve just about as well with a wood racket as with any other (maybe even harder if the wood racket is significantly heavier in weight). The basic difference is the small sweetspot and how much you lose power even if you hit just a little bit off of it. Therefore, with a serve return where you are likely to have difficulty in hitting exactly on the sweetspot you will have a lot of trouble. Also, because of the small head and tight string pattern it is a lot harder to hit big spin (shows how much of a genius Borg was). I think there was a an article on something like this (the 95 sq in racket?) where it showed that over a certain head size it was much easier to hit spin. Someone on the boards will probably remember it exactly. Similarly, volleys which are just a small punch are not much harder with a wood racket. Thus, the change in the game away from serve and volley (easy with wood rackets) with big rackets and poly strings.

 

[swedechris]

I have a bunch of old wooden bats around still.. Wilson : The Advantage , Pro Staff, Jack Kramer Autograph
Slazenger Challenge No.1 ( 2nd Gen)
Snauwaert Brian Gottfried, Garcia Strato , Rossignol Strato and Donnay Allwood.
if you hit the sweetspot on any of these its a 'homerun' .. super nice feel .. heavy .

 

[PrinceMoron]

I have a bunch of old wooden bats around still.. Wilson : The Advantage , Pro Staff, Jack Kramer Autograph
Slazenger Challenge No.1 ( 2nd Gen)
Snauwaert Brian Gottfried, Garcia Strato , Rossignol Strato and Donnay Allwood.
if you hit the sweetspot on any of these its a 'homerun' .. super nice feel .. heavy .

Which Snauwaert is that - the standard or the autograph, 1/2 inch longer, thicker throat, more flex. I love the standard Gottfried, but can't stand the autograph, which is a real shame as I have 2 new old stock

 

[serve/and/volley]

if you hit the sweetspot on any of these its a 'homerun' .. super nice feel .. heavy .

This is exactly how I feel! I like to use a musical metaphor, the closer I hit the sweetspot, the more "in tune" I play!

 

[LeeD]

You can serve almost just as hard with a STIFF wooden racket, like a glass reinforced MaxPly using ONE single layer of 8 oz S glass on each side only.... Colin Dibley's fastest serve at 1978 GGRacketClub in the Embarkadero SF was timed at 149mph, with more than 5 other's in the 145+ range. Most other pros, like StanSmith, only 125 or so (but this was well after his prime years, he was looking old and feeble by then, as was Lutz, his doubs partner.
My ProStaff only timed out at around 120 then, and the YonexGreen at 129, 5 serves out of 7 tries over 125.
Get yourself into 5.0 levels, and you can serve any wood racket well over 115mph, at almost any age, and string with VS around 64 lbs. to get the ball outta the stringbed NOW.

 

[J011yroger]

I think there was a an article on something like this (the 95 sq in racket?) where it showed that over a certain head size it was much easier to hit spin. Someone on the boards will probably remember it exactly.

NLB, I think you are talking about the article "The Inch That Changed Tennis"

J

 

[BreakPoint]

@Breakpoint, Mcenroe almost certainly served over 100mph with the wood racquet. Mcenroe was hitting (by today's radar) between 115 and 125mph with his graphite, you don't take that much of a hit with wood.

Actually, he wasn't. He rarely hit flat serves when he played with wood. He now uses a 98 sq. in. graphite racquet which is much more powerful than his 65 sq. in. flexy wood racquet, so now his fastest serves are in the 120mph range but he averages more around 110mph or less. Believe me, I've seen him play live in person both when he used wood racquets and now with his graphite racquets. You can also watch some of his old matches when he used wood to see how slow his serves were. Borg's serves were faster and his fastest serves with wood were around 110mph but averaged more around 100mph or less.

Here's also some info on McEnroe:

"His serve is not the hardest, but he can change speed and angle. He also has the advantage of being lefthanded, which causes his spin serves to break in the opposite direction from righthanders and confuse them."

http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/McEnroe_John.html

 

[LeeD]

If a player uses Eastern, Conti, or SW forehands and hits mainly flattish balls, a wood racket barely hinders your game, maybe .5 level.
If the player chooses to brush the ball Borgish style, open stanced and loop swings, maybe 1.5 levels hindered with wood small rackets.
Depends on the player's style.
As for serves, Tanner consistently hit in the 130's with wood, and taller guys, like Amaya, strong guys like Kriek, easily hit into the mid 130s to low 140s with stiff or modified wood rackets.
All those guys used special rackets, with shaved wood, added glass layers, epoxy resins, and replaced the rackets sooner rather than later.
Very few pros used the wood rackets more than 2 stringjobs.
Some lower level pros then had me stringing as many as 5 rackets at the start of local tournaments, had 4-7 with them, and had two sets being strung at future tournaments for the coming 3 weeks.
Those were the LOWER level pro mens players.
Since I never strung for guys then at the top 20 levels, I'd assume they would have had as many as 30 frames floating around at the same time in different locations strung by different stringers during the tennis season...hence the TEAM MANAGER idea.

 

[bad_call]

You can serve almost just as hard with a STIFF wooden racket, like a glass reinforced MaxPly using ONE single layer of 8 oz S glass on each side only.... Colin Dibley's fastest serve at 1978 GGRacketClub in the Embarkadero SF was timed at 149mph, with more than 5 other's in the 145+ range. Most other pros, like StanSmith, only 125 or so (but this was well after his prime years, he was looking old and feeble by then, as was Lutz, his doubs partner.
My ProStaff only timed out at around 120 then, and the YonexGreen at 129, 5 serves out of 7 tries over 125.
Get yourself into 5.0 levels, and you can serve any wood racket well over 115mph, at almost any age, and string with VS around 64 lbs. to get the ball outta the stringbed NOW.

where did u read about the glass? have u done any laminating yourself?

 

[LeeD]

Don't have to read about it.
I sat there and talked to Dibley when he brought his fast serve rackets in to be strung.
I also strung Cahill's (Mike), Rameriz's, and some of Stockton's Kramers, and they were completely different than the stock rackets we sold. Some were stiffer, some as soft, most were shaven frames, some used poly resins, some were thickly reinforced, some were multi thin layers of glass, other's were few layered with thicker glass. Since every player is different, stands to reason their rackets were different for different courts, indoors or out, and style chosen.
I kinda know glassing, as I'd glassed over 500 surfboards by then.

 

[35ft6]

I don't believe the stories about guys serving nearly 150 with wood. Watching old movies of them, it seems pretty obvious that although they were fantastic servers, they weren't delivering anything near that kind of speed.

 

[serve/and/volley]

I don't believe the stories about guys serving nearly 150 with wood. Watching old movies of them, it seems pretty obvious that although they were fantastic servers, they weren't delivering anything near that kind of speed.

They must have got the conversion units all wrong. More likely they were measuring in kilometers per hour.

 

[bad_call]

Don't have to read about it.
I sat there and talked to Dibley when he brought his fast serve rackets in to be strung.
I also strung Cahill's (Mike), Rameriz's, and some of Stockton's Kramers, and they were completely different than the stock rackets we sold. Some were stiffer, some as soft, most were shaven frames, some used poly resins, some were thickly reinforced, some were multi thin layers of glass, other's were few layered with thicker glass. Since every player is different, stands to reason their rackets were different for different courts, indoors or out, and style chosen.
I kinda know glassing, as I'd glassed over 500 surfboards by then.

since u mentioned S glass, thought u may know about surfboard laminating. done a few myself.

 

[Tennis Dunce]

I would think that the vastly shorter strings would stifle any power advantage of the beefy weight of the wood racquets.

 

[bad_call]

LeeD - what board maker/shaper did u glass?

 

[LeeD]

"the man is wise"....
Funny your ran that one thru....
WiseSurfboards, in SanFrancisco, currently and since 1988 the biggest surf shop in NorCal, and second only to one in Newport, as the biggest in California... 600 surfboards in stock, well over 600 wetsuits, all 4/3 or thicker, in stock in the store. They haven't made their own boards since I quit shaping in '77 for full time motocross.
As for you non believers. You may believe whatever you want. Do you really think the modern athletes can serve or throw harder than mid 70's guys?
NolanRyan, BobGibson (over 100mph) were late '70's guys. JohnElway could throw a football 80 yards, farther than almost any current QB. JohanKriek, VictorAmaya, ColinDibley, MarcRosset, and a bunch other hard servers could whack heck outta a wood racket almost as fast as anyone nowadaze could with aero carbons.
YOU cannot because you are not a trained, strong tennis player!
And a wood racket that is 30 years old is not the same as a brand new wood racket shaved, tri-4oz poly glassed both sides and weighted perfectly for the server.

 

[serve/and/volley]

"the man is wise"....
Funny your ran that one thru....
WiseSurfboards, in SanFrancisco, currently and since 1988 the biggest surf shop in NorCal, and second only to one in Newport, as the biggest in California... 600 surfboards in stock, well over 600 wetsuits, all 4/3 or thicker, in stock in the store. They haven't made their own boards since I quit shaping in '77 for full time motocross.
As for you non believers. You may believe whatever you want. Do you really think the modern athletes can serve or throw harder than mid 70's guys?
NolanRyan, BobGibson (over 100mph) were late '70's guys. JohnElway could throw a football 80 yards, farther than almost any current QB. JohanKriek, VictorAmaya, ColinDibley, MarcRosset, and a bunch other hard servers could whack heck outta a wood racket almost as fast as anyone nowadaze could with aero carbons.
YOU cannot because you are not a trained, strong tennis player!
And a wood racket that is 30 years old is not the same as a brand new wood racket shaved, tri-4oz poly glassed both sides and weighted perfectly for the server.

Wow, what kind of dialect are you writing in? You gotta lay off the dope when you're typing on your computer. Maybe you should enroll in a MFA program in creative writing. Too bad no one will read your output. Don't you know that no one can top the mumbo jumbo of Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. Nice half-hearted attempt however.

 

[bad_call]

there was a shop in Newport Bch that i bought all my boards from in the 70's. small world...

 

[corners]

Wow, what kind of dialect are you writing in? You gotta lay off the dope when you're typing on your computer. Maybe you should enroll in a MFA program in creative writing. Too bad no one will read your output. Don't you know that no one can top the mumbo jumbo of Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. Nice half-hearted attempt however.

Settle down boy. His writing is just fine.

 

[serve/and/volley]

Settle down boy. His writing is just fine.

Oh yea you knows good writing cuz your tennis board junkie knowing all them latest lingo from Los1Angeles to NewYork and asian boyz like me only knows how speaka Engrish

 

[bad_call]

Oh yea you knows good writing cuz your tennis board junkie knowing all them latest lingo from Los1Angeles to NewYork and asian boyz like me only knows how speaka Engrish

no importante. FWIW - some posters spew crazy info so one must gleen over it. i have my opinion as to who are full of it and who are sometimes delirious. me thinks corners was just trying to be nice to others.

btw - azianz ROCK!!!

 

[serve/and/volley]

no importante. FWIW - some posters spew crazy info so one must gleen over it. i have my opinion as to who are full of it and who are sometimes delirious. me thinks corners was just trying to be nice to others.

btw - azianz ROCK!!!

Check out these rockin' azianz in these two movies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTq20prt0K8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwlkAk8bd5c

I love it!

 

[bad_call]

thanks for sharing.

 

[NLBwell]

Wow, what kind of dialect are you writing in? You gotta lay off the dope when you're typing on your computer. Maybe you should enroll in a MFA program in creative writing. Too bad no one will read your output. Don't you know that no one can top the mumbo jumbo of Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. Nice half-hearted attempt however.

Now I'm worried. I thought I understood everything he said. Maybe something's wrong with me.
Thanks for the reference, Jolly.