Serving with an Eastern Forehand?

Do most beginners serve this way?

For a long time, my Serve Grip has been somewhat of an extreme Eastern or Eastern Forehand grip with minimal, if any pronation.

I now realize a continental grip is common place because of the wrist motion (or pronation) it allows. I tried using this grip for the first time yesterday and the motion was very unnatural and I had a hard time serving with Control / Accuracy and Power.

Two questions.

1. Do any (good) players serve with an Eastern or Extreme Eastern forehand?

2. What are some techniques the can be learned, to help transition From a eastern Serve grip to a Continental grip?
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
1. No.

2. Search this board, check out fuzzyyellowballs.com. It's not just a grip change, you'll need to change your whole swing, shoulder rotation, etc. However it's worth the effort.

Good luck.
 

Fuji

Legend
I did the same thing as you when I was reworking my serve. When I first started I did Eastern on everything but volleys. I had such a hard time getting pace on my serve with the E grip though, and once I changed to conti it REALLY improved pace and accuracy, even slice serves.

It's a lot of work, but really well worth it!

-Fuji
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
True eastern forehand or beyond for serving is a bad idea - I don't even teach it to beginners, since they're eventually have to un-learn it later. That's usually no fun.

Continental is the smart serving grip according to conventional wisdom. If it's any consolation, I think it should feel awful for you as you try it out, just because it's different or foreign for you compared with what you've been doing up 'til now. At least that's some evidence that you've made a fundamental change - that's the process.

Since moving to the continental grip will initially change the aspect of your racquet face (its angle), just expect to alter your aim a little more to the right (if you're a righty) as that new angle will probably send the ball more to your left. Practice and experimentation with the swing path that works along with that grip will build your instincts for the right set up, rhythm, and toss location for better serves.

Don't worry about where you land the ball until you've found your way to solid, consistent contact with this new grip. This is a fundamental alteration in what's maybe the most complex shot in the game. Once you can reliably hit the ball, then you can start to dial in where it's going.
 
True eastern forehand or beyond for serving is a bad idea - I don't even teach it to beginners, since they're eventually have to un-learn it later. That's usually no fun.

Continental is the smart serving grip according to conventional wisdom. If it's any consolation, I think it should feel awful for you as you try it out, just because it's different or foreign for you compared with what you've been doing up 'til now. At least that's some evidence that you've made a fundamental change - that's the process.

Since moving to the continental grip will initially change the aspect of your racquet face (its angle), just expect to alter your aim a little more to the right (if you're a righty) as that new angle will probably send the ball more to your left. Practice and experimentation with the swing path that works along with that grip will build your instincts for the right set up, rhythm, and toss location for better serves.

Don't worry about where you land the ball until you've found your way to solid, consistent contact with this new grip. This is a fundamental alteration in what's maybe the most complex shot in the game. Once you can reliably hit the ball, then you can start to dial in where it's going.

Good advice. When I started serving with a continental grip (for the first time ever, yesterday) it just simply felt “Un-natural”.

I didn't have a really hard time with the ball going out (although I did hit the net more than usual) as much as I did simply coming in Good contact with the racquet head.

But as you said, working on hitting the ball with good contact with the racquet and not worrying so much were the ball is going.


Since I have been serving for so long with an eastern-ish grip, would I have to change my feet position when I serve with continental?
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Do most beginners serve this way?

For a long time, my Serve Grip has been somewhat of an extreme Eastern or Eastern Forehand grip with minimal, if any pronation.

I now realize a continental grip is common place because of the wrist motion (or pronation) it allows. I tried using this grip for the first time yesterday and the motion was very unnatural and I had a hard time serving with Control / Accuracy and Power.

Two questions.

1. Do any (good) players serve with an Eastern or Extreme Eastern forehand?

2. What are some techniques the can be learned, to help transition From a eastern Serve grip to a Continental grip?

Stick with the continental. I have been playing 35 years. I switched from eastern to continental after about 6 months. For the 1st few sessions after I switched, the ball would go into the side fence wide of the duece service box. It took a while for me to learn to pronate and brush the ball L to R and 8 to 2 and place it in the service box. But, you get much more spin and action with the continental grip. You must be able to spin the serve in order to develop a good 1st and 2nd serve. Sampras spun his 1ST about 2,500 RPM and his second serve had a bit more spin.

Change is difficult. This is an old story. A guy took a lesson and the pro corrected his forehand grip. The guy then proceeded to play a few matches against his normal hitting buddies. The pro asked him how the new grip was going next time he saw him. The guy said I went back to my old grip because I would rather lose by my normal scores of 6-2, 6-2 than 6-0, 6-0. This is actually paraphrasing and old Vic Braden story. Change is tough and you have to stick with it. You may even back slide a bit before you more forward.

Things that may help are to think brush L to R and up from 8 to 2 o'clock. Another thing is at the bottom of your racket drop behind you back as you start up toward the ball the racket edge should be pointing at the ball. Some pros even teach to hit the ball with the edge of the frame a few times and then try to pronate and brush L to R/8 to 2. Hitting with the edge is kind of like throwing a toma-hawk at the ball and hitting the ball with the blade. You want to catch it thin with a brushing action and follow through to the right of contact. Watch pros 2nd serves on TV and see how their racket goes extremely to the right of the intended service box in the follow thru - they kind of followthru sideways (perpendicular) to the service box.

This is all in the context of a right handed server and should be reversed for a leftie (R to L/4 to 10 for lefties).
 
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fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
That eastern forehand grip can typically make servers set up more square to their target as they sort of "paddle" through the ball or even swing a little from outside-in. When that happens for a righty, it actually makes the ball slice out to the right.

You may find a comfortable address position for your serve where your shoulders (and feet) are set at maybe 40-70 degrees off to the right of your target (for a righty), but you may be just fine set up a little more square or a little more sideways than that. In this case where your racquet will probably be more angled with the continental grip, I'd say yes, expect to compensate a little by setting your feet so that your stance is a little more closed than it was with eastern grips.

The continental grip will allow you to still swing flat through the ball by turning your wrist out to face the ball more at contact, sort of like giving it a high-five. That same grip will also allow you to leave your wrist angled through contact so that the outside edge of your hand is more in the lead and the racquet face is angled a little more to the left (again, for a righty). That produces more sidespin that you want for a slice serve. Since it's not a flat ball, you need a swing path that's more off to the right of the target so that your slicing attack can send the ball left toward your target.

Keep it loose and practice, practice, practice...
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Good advice. When I started serving with a continental grip (for the first time ever, yesterday) it just simply felt “Un-natural”.

I didn't have a really hard time with the ball going out (although I did hit the net more than usual) as much as I did simply coming in Good contact with the racquet head.

But as you said, working on hitting the ball with good contact with the racquet and not worrying so much were the ball is going.


Since I have been serving for so long with an eastern-ish grip, would I have to change my feet position when I serve with continental?

I suggest square to slightly closed foot position with continental. Not sure what stance you used for EF grip.
 
Stick with the continental. I have been playing 35 years. I switched from eastern to continental after about 6 months. For the 1st few sessions after I switched, the ball would go into the side fence wide of the duece service box. It took a while for me to learn to pronate and brush the ball L to R and 8 to 2 and place it in the service box. But, you get much more spin and action with the continental grip. You must be able to spin the serve in order to develop a good 1st and 2nd serve. Sampras spun his 1ST about 2,500 RPM and his second serve had a bit more spin.

Change is difficult. This is an old story. A guy took a lesson and the pro corrected his forehand grip. The guy then proceeded to play a few matches against his normal hitting buddies. The pro asked him how the new grip was going next time he saw him. The guy said I went back to my old grip because I would rather lose by my normal scores of 6-2, 6-2 than 6-0, 6-0. This is actually paraphrasing and old Vic Braden story. Change is tough and you have to stick with it. You may even back slide a bit before you more forward.

Things that may help are to think brush L to R and up from 8 to 2 o'clock. Another thing is at the bottom of your racket drop behind you back as you start up toward the ball the racket edge should be pointing at the ball. Some pros even teach to hit the ball with the edge of the frame a few times and then try to pronate and brush L to R/8 to 2. Hitting with the edge is kind of like throwing a toma-hawk at the ball and hitting the ball with the blade. You want to catch it thin with a brushing action and follow through to the right of contact. Watch pros 2nd serves on TV and see how their racket goes extremely to the right of the intended service box in the follow thru - they kind of followthru sideways (perpendicular) to the service box.

This is all in the context of a right handed server and should be reversed for a leftie (R to L/4 to 10 for lefties).

Thanks for the tips. Would you mind expounding on the "brush L to R and up from 8 to 2 o'clock" technique? When the racquet is at "8 o'clock" position, should it be touching your back (almost like a "back scratching" position)?

And you say to "follow through to the right of contact". How much of an angle? About a 45 degree angle?


Would I have to change my feet position also (when changing from Eastern to Continental grip serve)?
 
That eastern forehand grip can typically make servers set up more square to their target as they sort of "paddle" through the ball or even swing a little from outside-in. When that happens for a righty, it actually makes the ball slice out to the right.

You may find a comfortable address position for your serve where your shoulders (and feet) are set at maybe 40-70 degrees off to the right of your target (for a righty), but you may be just fine set up a little more square or a little more sideways than that. In this case where your racquet will probably be more angled with the continental grip, I'd say yes, expect to compensate a little by setting your feet so that your stance is a little more closed than it was with eastern grips.

The continental grip will allow you to still swing flat through the ball by turning your wrist out to face the ball more at contact, sort of like giving it a high-five. That same grip will also allow you to leave your wrist angled through contact so that the outside edge of your hand is more in the lead and the racquet face is angled a little more to the left (again, for a righty). That produces more sidespin that you want for a slice serve. Since it's not a flat ball, you need a swing path that's more off to the right of the target so that your slicing attack can send the ball left toward your target.

Keep it loose and practice, practice, practice...

I didn't even see this comment before writing my last reply. That answered my question(s).

I would edit my previous post but I can't for some reason...
 

SStrikerR

Hall of Fame
Any questions about stance or follow through, etc, just go on youtube and watch videos of pros serving in slow motion. It's easier to emulate what they're doing than try to figure it out based off text.
 

Fuji

Legend
Fuzzy Yellow Balls is pretty legit! I used to watch them A LOT!

Also check out the serve doctor videos! I loved his video on slice serving, it was awesome and really helped me out.

Also Becker is a freak of nature! His serve was extremely good for using such an oddball grip, but it's not something I would recommend to anyone really.

-Fuji
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
So don't look at vid of Becker, who used conti with eFOREhand flavor for all his serves.

Have heard that Serena uses a semi-conti for 1st serves (sometimes?). Some players who have a lot of problems with a full conti often have some success with a semi-conti. Once comfortable with that change, a switch to a full conti can be much easier.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Thanks for the tips. Would you mind expounding on the "brush L to R and up from 8 to 2 o'clock" technique? When the racquet is at "8 o'clock" position, should it be touching your back (almost like a "back scratching" position)?

And you say to "follow through to the right of contact". How much of an angle? About a 45 degree angle?


Would I have to change my feet position also (when changing from Eastern to Continental grip serve)?

Hi, I will try to explain more but it is difficult without images. I will also give you some a web site with video.

L to R brushing motion is at contact. Basically, the racket face is moving L to R as you contact the ball and the strings brush across the ball.

8 to 2 o'clock is also a brushing motion at contract. L to R and 8 to 2 are kind of saying the same thing but 8 to 2 indicates you should brush up and to the right. Basically, you are brushing from the lower L to the upper R of the ball.

You will have to use trial and error to determine how far to the right to followthru. I would guess you are following thru at roughly a 45 degree angle to the direction of the ball. For example: if you are serving to the duece (left as you face it) court; your follow thru will be in the general direction of the right net post. If you are serving to the ad court; your followthru will be well outside of the right net post. Roughly 45 degree but trail and error to develop control and amount of spin.

Web site fuzzyyellowballs.com has instructional video on the serve for free. I think you have to give them an e-mail address but no $. There are 3 lessons for a basic serve, slice serve and topspin serve. All 3 are good and should probably be viewed in the order in which I listed them. Each lesson has 3 or 4 small videos that break it down step by step including the pronation and motion at contact. This web site also has a pro strokes library and you can see pros serve in slow-motion and see pronation and brushing motion.

Basically, if you pronate and follow almost straight thru the ball, you hit a flat serve - this is catching it fat with a lot of string behind the ball. For a spin serve, you will catch it thin meaning the strings basically brush up and across the ball and follow through to the right of the actual direction of the ball.
 
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Hi, I will try to explain more but it is difficult without images. I will also give you some a web site with video.

L to R brushing motion is at contact. Basically, the racket face is moving L to R as you contact the ball and the strings brush across the ball.

8 to 2 o'clock is also a brushing motion at contract. L to R and 8 to 2 are kind of saying the same thing but 8 to 2 indicates you should brush up and to the right. Basically, you are brushing from the lower L to the upper R of the ball.

You will have to use trial and error to determine how far to the right to followthru. I would guess you are following thru at roughly a 45 degree angle to the direction of the ball. For example: if you are serving to the duece (left as you face it) court; your follow thru will be in the general direction of the right net post. If you are serving to the ad court; your followthru will be well outside of the right net post. Roughly 45 degree but trail and error to develop control and amount of spin.

Web site fuzzyyellowballs.com has instructional video on the serve for free. I think you have to give them an e-mail address but no $. There are 3 lessons for a basic serve, slice serve and topspin serve. All 3 are good and should probably be viewed in the order in which I listed them. Each lesson has 3 or 4 small videos that break it down step by step including the pronation and motion at contact. This web site also has a pro strokes library and you can see pros serve in slow-motion and see pronation and brushing motion.

Basically, if you pronate and follow almost straight thru the ball, you hit a flat serve - this is catching it fat with a lot of string behind the ball. For a spin serve, you will catch it thin meaning the strings basically brush up and across the ball and follow through to the right of the actual direction of the ball.

Thank you for the help. I will check out FYB's vids.

One last question, do you use the "L to R and 8 to 2 o'clock" motion on ALL serves? Even a flat serve?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Flat, slice, top/slice, pure top, kicker all have their own motions, and when you start placing them left and right, also have their own motions, and when you start adding intent after serving, they have their own motions.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Thank you for the help. I will check out FYB's vids.

One last question, do you use the "L to R and 8 to 2 o'clock" motion on ALL serves? Even a flat serve?

Basically, yes - the same motion on all serves. But, there are slight deviations.

For flat, I still have a L to R and 8 to 2 motion but it is less severe. The racket opens more and goes more directly thru the ball more. Some people use the term "slap it". But, I still try to hit up and follow-thru on angle to the R to get some spin.

For kick, I make the 8 to 2 angle a bit more severe (say more like 7 to 1) for more vertical rotation to pull the ball down. I use more angle to the side on the follow-thru for kick as this generates more spin. My wrist is actually outside of the ball at contact - imagine the racket angle from your hand to the ball being 25 degrees or so. The ball contact must be a bit lower to have the angle.

For slice, L to R and 8 to 2 is fine.

Occasionally, I have run across a great server who hits a relatively flat ball, but the vast, vast majority of good servers get loads of spin even on 1st serves. So, some degree of L to R and 8 to 2 motion on all servers is fine.
 
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tennis-kid

Rookie
Do most beginners serve this way?

For a long time, my Serve Grip has been somewhat of an extreme Eastern or Eastern Forehand grip with minimal, if any pronation.

I now realize a continental grip is common place because of the wrist motion (or pronation) it allows. I tried using this grip for the first time yesterday and the motion was very unnatural and I had a hard time serving with Control / Accuracy and Power.

Two questions.

1. Do any (good) players serve with an Eastern or Extreme Eastern forehand?

2. What are some techniques the can be learned, to help transition From a eastern Serve grip to a Continental grip?



I had exactly same grip you had for so many years. I changed it to continental grip a few months ago. I totaly agree with you. It feels very un-natural to pronate. And the serve looks aweful and so slow. There is no pop at all. I was almost tempted to go back to old eastern grip but I am keep practicing currently. There is no pop sound at all. I guess I am not hitting right on spot. It is still aweful :cry:
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Just tell yourself that every guy who serves over 140 mph uses a conti grip, as does every guy who serves over 130.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will your conti gripped serves become second nature within a year.
 
Just tell yourself that every guy who serves over 140 mph uses a conti grip, as does every guy who serves over 130.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will your conti gripped serves become second nature within a year.

Yes, but are there any techniques to make this Conti serving grip feel more natural?

I am watching alot of those FYB's videos and they are great, but It is hard to get over the
"Uncontrollableness" I get from a Conti serve...
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Practice is always one method, tried and true.
Do you think all us conti servers didn't practice until we got it?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Hi, I will try to explain more but it is difficult without images. I will also give you some a web site with video.

L to R brushing motion is at contact. Basically, the racket face is moving L to R as you contact the ball and the strings brush across the ball.

8 to 2 o'clock is also a brushing motion at contract. L to R and 8 to 2 are kind of saying the same thing but 8 to 2 indicates you should brush up and to the right. Basically, you are brushing from the lower L to the upper R of the ball.

You will have to use trial and error to determine how far to the right to followthru. I would guess you are following thru at roughly a 45 degree angle to the direction of the ball. For example: if you are serving to the duece (left as you face it) court; your follow thru will be in the general direction of the right net post. If you are serving to the ad court; your followthru will be well outside of the right net post. Roughly 45 degree but trail and error to develop control and amount of spin.

Web site fuzzyyellowballs.com has instructional video on the serve for free. I think you have to give them an e-mail address but no $. There are 3 lessons for a basic serve, slice serve and topspin serve. All 3 are good and should probably be viewed in the order in which I listed them. Each lesson has 3 or 4 small videos that break it down step by step including the pronation and motion at contact. This web site also has a pro strokes library and you can see pros serve in slow-motion and see pronation and brushing motion.

Basically, if you pronate and follow almost straight thru the ball, you hit a flat serve - this is catching it fat with a lot of string behind the ball. For a spin serve, you will catch it thin meaning the strings basically brush up and across the ball and follow through to the right of the actual direction of the ball.



This is a very good post.
 
Yes, but are there any techniques to make this Conti serving grip feel more natural?

I am watching alot of those FYB's videos and they are great, but It is hard to get over the
"Uncontrollableness" I get from a Conti serve...

You're right. You need to get comfortable with the continental grip in order to feel like you can serve with a continental grip. Since the continental grip is used for an awful lot of other shots in tennis besides the serve (slice groundstrokes, volleys, half volleys, overheads, drop shots, etc), the more comfortable you are with the continental grip the more shots you'll have in your repetoire.

In Will Hamilton's paid subscribers program, Tennis RX, he (and Yann Auzouz) advocate that you ought to learn some juggling drills with the continental grip. These drills are very similar to what soccer players do when they juggle the ball. Their main benefit is for you to develop touch for your racquet face.

1) First hold the racquet with a continental grip and try to bounce the ball up and down off your sweet spot using either a "flat forehand hit" or "flat backhand hit".

2) Now try alternating between both sides of the racquet.

3) Now try cradling the ball ... toss the ball up in the air, control your racquet face so that the string bed is brushing up parallel to the ball's descent (to slow the ball down), and then scoop up to catch the ball to a dead stop on your racquet face. Learn to do this with both sides of the face.

4) Now try bouncing the ball up and down off your racquet face with a "slice forehand hit" or "backhand slice hit". Once you can do it consistently with one face at a time, work up to alternating with both faces.
 
I find I get a LOT more power with an Eastern FH grip than a Conti. I'm not sure what does it, my guess is that since the hand is further behind the racquet handle, less power is lost due to wrist/hand flex on impact.

I went to it just for the heck of it in a friendly match a few weeks ago and the you could even hear the difference in the sound of the serve when I changed grip. It sounded like my strings broke on every serve.

The catch is that I can't control it at all. It's super-hard to put any spin on the ball so the serve is very flat. Even in practice, I'm lucky if I get 30% of full-pace serves like this in. The extra MPH is totally canceled out by missed serves.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
I find I get a LOT more power with an Eastern FH grip than a Conti. I'm not sure what does it, my guess is that since the hand is further behind the racquet handle, less power is lost due to wrist/hand flex on impact.

I went to it just for the heck of it in a friendly match a few weeks ago and the you could even hear the difference in the sound of the serve when I changed grip. It sounded like my strings broke on every serve.

The catch is that I can't control it at all. It's super-hard to put any spin on the ball so the serve is very flat. Even in practice, I'm lucky if I get 30% of full-pace serves like this in. The extra MPH is totally canceled out by missed serves.

Everyone that you see play on TV uses a continental grip. Same with all of the pros you don't see on TV, all of the college players, and all of the good rec and high school players. I honestly don't know if you can hit it harder with an E. forehand grip (I honestly don't think you can, but I don't know that for a fact), but the 120 mph or so that you can get out of continental grip is more than fast enough to get the job done.

A good serve isn't just speed. First you have to get it in. A continental grip will give you the speed with the topspin you need to land that 120 mph serve. Pete Sampras' "flat", 120 mph serve rotated about 1500 rpms. A continental grip also gives you a topspin second serve that you can hit at 80 or 90 mph and get in every time. You can also hit slice serves and American twist serves all with that grip. And, with practice, you can disguise most of those serves, as well as the placement, so the returner doesn't know what's coming until you hit it.

It will take a bit of practice, but if you want to raise the level of your game, learn to use the continental grip on your serves (and volleys too).
 
I honestly don't know if you can hit it harder with an E. forehand grip (I honestly don't think you can, but I don't know that for a fact)

Why is it that you think I can't?

Sure, every pro in the entire world uses a Continental. I am NOT recommending that people use the Eastern grip. I use a Continental 99.9% of the time I play. The .1% is when I am either playing a fun match with friends and want to goof around with it and a time or two when i was getting my @$$ kicked in a "real" match and the only way I was going win was to take big risks and hope lady luck was on my side.

Like I said, I don't use the EFH because getting only 30% of my first serves in is a really bad strategy. I can't get any spin at all on the ball with the Eastern. Higher speed + no spin = really small margin of error.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
I honestly don't know if you can hit it harder with an E. forehand grip (I honestly don't think you can, but I don't know that for a fact).

Why is it that you think I can't?

Sure, every pro in the entire world uses a Continental. I am NOT recommending that people use the Eastern grip. I use a Continental 99.9% of the time I play. The .1% is when I am either playing a fun match with friends and want to goof around with it and a time or two when i was getting my @$$ kicked in a "real" match and the only way I was going win was to take big risks and hope lady luck was on my side.

Like I said, I don't use the EFH because getting only 30% of my first serves in is a really bad strategy. I can't get any spin at all on the ball with the Eastern. Higher speed + no spin = really small margin of error.

The "you" I used in the original quote was meant as the global "you," not you personally. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

So more properly said, I'm not sure that someone skilled in hitting serves with both grips could actually hit the E. FH grip serve faster. Obviously I can't comment on you personally because I've never seen you play.
 
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