Share your WTN - Crowd sourcing the NTRP to WTN mapping

schmke

schmke

Legend
WTN's have started showing up on player's profiles on usta.com (not TennisLink), so if you login to your account on usta.com and go to your profile, it should show up.

I'd written a hypothetical potential mapping between NTRP and WTN on my blog a few weeks ago, but now that things are published, we can begin to see what it is in reality.

To aid in that, I thought it would be useful to see if we can crowd-source a mapping between NTRP and WTN by having folks share their NTRP level (3.5C, 4.0A, 3.0M, etc.) and what their USTA profile shows their WTN to be. And if you have a singles and doubles WTN, please post both.

I'll start:

NTRP: 4.5C
Singles WTN: 12.6
Doubles WTN: 21.0

That is a remarkable difference between singles and doubles, and I'm pretty sure is not representative of my ability!

As folks reply to this thread, I'll compile a list and see what sort of mapping I can come up with and share it here and on my blog.
 
I was expecting a number somewhere between 35 and 39
NTRP 3.5C Woman
Singles WTN: 22.6 (gray tick mark)
Doubles WTN: 24.8 (blue tick mark)

HA ha ha ... yeah, I don't think there is enough differential between me and you on the doubles court @schmke
 
NTRP: 4.0 C
WTNS: 18.9 (probably more accurate based on actual results, have a habit of tanking singles in tournaments, mental headcase)
GZ: 20.6-17.1
WTND: 16.5 doubles (probably a little worse rated than I should be, I have gone year after year not losing at 4.0 doubles regular season and winning some at 4.5, have wins over UTR 8s in doubles, players at sectionals who also have wins playing 5.0 and undefeated 4.5 records regular season, self-raters at 4.0 of course)

I'll add some more here like Max did below:

NTPR: 4.5A player (great 4.5, appealed down from 5.0)
WTNs: 14.7
GZ: 16.4-12.9
WTNd: 12.9

NTRP: 4.5 C plays very often, on superteams for tri-level combo etc.
WTNs: 11.6
GZ: 13.4-9.8
WTNd: 8.9

NTRP: 5.0C also plays very often, wins tournaments regularly
WTNs: 12.2
GZ: 14-10.5
WTNd: 10.2

NTRP: 5.0C Probably better or equal to the others listed above, but doesn't play as much, spends more time as a teaching pro part time.
WTNs: 12.8
GZ: 14.6-10.9
WTNd: 15.8
 
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NTRP: 4.5C
WTN Singles: 15.1
Doubles: 19.2

I also looked up some people I've hit with:
NTRP: 5.0C, WTN 7.5 singles/12.3 doubles
NTRP: 4.5C, WTN 16.7 singles/21.2 doubles
NTRP: 4.5C, WTN 14.1 singles/16.8 doubles
NTRP: 5.0C, WTN 5.8 singles/17.8 doubles (??????????)
NTRP: 4.5C, WTN 13.6 singles/18.7 doubles
NTRP: 4.5C, WTN 19.4 singles/21.0 doubles
NTRP: 4.5C, WTN 20.2 singles/21.2 doubles (come on, this guy never plays any singles, how's his singles rating still better than his doubles rating)
 
OnTheLine said:
I was expecting a number somewhere between 35 and 39
NTRP 3.5C Woman
Singles WTN: 22.6 (gray tick mark)
Doubles WTN: 24.8 (blue tick mark)

HA ha ha ... yeah, I don't think there is enough differential between me and you on the doubles court @schmke
Click to expand...
Someday we'll have to see. You may take me to school!
 
NTRP 4.0C until I get my 3.5A rating when I click their little appeal down button in Dec :)

WTNs: 15.5
WTNd: 18.7
maybe I should switch to pickleball :(
 
I should have added having folks include the "Game zONe" ranges too. What is odd is it appears for my WTNs but not my WTNd. What are others seeing?

If you can include your GZ, I can track if it is more or less a fixed range around one's WTN or if it varies beyond that.

NTRP: 4.5C
WTNs: 12.6 with GZ of 10.6-14.7
WTNd: 21.0 with no GZ
 
travlerajm said:
NTRP: 4.5C
WTNs: 13.0
WTNd: 13.1
Click to expand...
My singles GZ is 11.0 to 15.1. I don’t have a GZ for doubles.

I assume this means that my singles rating has more uncertainty, as I haven’t played many usta singles matches lately. Most of my action has been in mixed.
 
NTRP: 4.5C
WTN singles: 12.1 (gray checkmark)
GZ singles: 13.9 - 10.3
WTN doubles: 13.8 (gray checkmark)

UTR singles: 7.6
UTR doubles: 7.0
 
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travlerajm said:
My singles GZ is 11.0 to 15.1. I don’t have a GZ for doubles.

I assume this means that my singles rating has more uncertainty, as I haven’t played many usta singles matches lately. Most of my action has been in mixed.
Click to expand...
It appears Game zONe is only shown for singles.
 
NTRP: 3.5C
I have 1 USTA singles match in my career, several years ago, when I was a 3.0.

WTNs: 16.3 (GameZone 14.2 - 18.3)
WTNd: 21.7
 
So far my WTN number is “an error has occurred.” Most likely they are getting hit with too much traffic as everyone clicks the link. I will update this post once the traffic dies down. Another smooth IT roll-out by USTA …

A DOZEN RELOADS LATER ...

NTRP: 3.5C
WTNs: 18.0 GZ: 19.8 - 16.2 (grey); UTR 4.68
WTNd: 21.1 (blue); UTR 5.11

Sort of interesting because UTR has me significantly higher in doubles than singles. I don't play much league singles at all.
 
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NTRP: 4.0C
WTNs: 13.4 B
WTNd: 15.6 B
GZ: 11.7-15.2
It would also be useful to include the checkmark color next to your rating. Grey checkmark indicates low confidence and blue is high confidence. Probably due to not having enough results.

Game Zone looks like an implementation of Rating Deviation (RD) in Glicko 2. There is a 95% confidence your rating ± 2xRD is your true rating. The Game Zone interval looks too large to be the RD so I'm guessing its RDx2. Although there is no reason why they couldn't make it anything in between 1 and 2. Glicko 2 also has a volatility metric which would be really fun to have. Its an indicator of the expected rating fluctuation. Having the volatility number would also make this rating actually transparent as anyone would be able to calculated their updated rating based on their results.
 
Also had issues logging in due to server issues on their end, but finally got in:

NTRP: 3.5C (female)
WTNs: 19.5 (GZ 17.7-21.2) - blue checkmark
WTNd: 20.9 - gray checkmark

UTR has me higher for doubles, but I agree with WTN that I'm a bit better at singles.
 
Southwest/Central
NTRP 3.5
UTR 5.73 sgl /5.20 dubs
WTN 20 sgl /21 dubs

Will be interesting to see if or how these correlate.
 
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NTRP: 4.5C
WTNs: 15.7
WTNd: 28.8 (only one doubles match played and we thumped a pair of 4.0s so that number doesn’t make sense!)
 
NTRP: 3.5C (Male)
WTN Singles: 17.7 (19.6 - 15.9) - grey checkmark
WTN Doubles: 19.3 - blue checkmark
 
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low to middling ntrp4.5 (according to tennisrecord ~4.2) here...

my WTN:
singles: 11.0
singles(GZ): 9.1-12.8
doubles: 16.6

~14-17 seems about right?

for completeness:

my UTR
singles: 8.09
doubles: 7.53
 
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I only play dubs... Something though is o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O

3.5C
Dubs Rating 27.9 grey (Low Accuracy).

First I have played a ton of USTA dubs over the past 10 years so not sure why it is low accuracy but in addition 27.9 is the highest I have seen listed so far and I am nowhere near that good.
 
LOBALOT said:
I only play dubs... Something though is o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O

3.5C
Dubs Rating 27.9 grey (Low Accuracy).

First I have played a ton of USTA dubs over the past 10 years so not sure why it is low accuracy but in addition 27.9 is the highest I have seen listed so far and I am nowhere near that good.
Click to expand...
Ummm, WTN goes the other way. Beginner is 40, pro is 1.
 
3.5s
Singles: 27.4(29.2-25.5)
Doubles:11

I've only got 2 singles matches from last week and bunch of old league doubles matches from over 5 years ago. I had a good record in 3.5/7.5 doubles at the time, but that rating is crazy.
 
4.0C (male)
20.2 singles (game zone 18.5-22.0); 20.7 doubles - both are blue.

Other 4.0C men from my teams (blue checkmarks only):

25.8 doubles
20.0 doubles
20.5 doubles
20.3 singles (game zone 18.5-22.0); 21.3 doubles
13.3 doubles
24.1 doubles
22.6 doubles
17.4 doubles
19.4 singles (game zone 17.7-21.2); 22.6 doubles
16.1 doubles

These doubles number seems to be a mess. There's a bit of range in ability of these guys, but nowhere near this much.
 
4.0C M

Singles 15.2 GZ 17 - 13.3
Doubles 13.1 No GZ

FWIW I am a much better doubles player, but whether that's coincidence to this rating or not is unclear.
 
NTRP 4.0C Male
WTN 16.5 Singles (Gray Checkmark)
WTN 22.1 Doubles (Blue Checkmark)
UTR 6.8 Doubles

Interesting because I’ve only played a handful of singles matches since 2015. And some of these numbers for other 3.0C/3.5C posters are crazy.
 
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time_fly said:
This is really good. Between UTR and WTN, I will always have a rating number that is going up!
Click to expand...

Except when it is going down in the other system. i think we need a less confusing rating system say one with a clock face except the seconds hand goes backward starting at 12 with 12:00 being a beginner 12:01 being the greatest player in the world. That way a beginner is oh so close to being the greatest player in the world but unfortunately they aren't even 6 O'Clock yet.
 
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