Share your WTN - Crowd sourcing the NTRP to WTN mapping
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Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I am not sure about singles as most USTA players play much more doubles. But based on what I looked at a doubles 4.85 UTR would only end up with a bump in about 15% of cases. I would say a UTR @5.00 would be about a 50% chance of getting a bump.
UTR does not necessarily drop if you don't play. It could go up. But earlier matches drop off and if those earlier matches were great results compared to your more recent results then your UTR will drop. Also if it turns out that the players you beat actually had an inflated rating at the time you played them then your rating will decrease as their rating gets sorted.
ponzicrash
New User
Usta:3.5c
Wtnd:25.7
Utrd:5.81
Wtnd:25.7
Utrd:5.81
Updated:
USTA 4.0 C
TR 3.65
WTNd 26.54
UTRd 5.39
My WTN went down after losing a bunch of matches at Sectionals but those matches definitely helped increase my TR and get me the bump to 4.0.
greg_atlanta
New User
Thanks everyone, I'll resist the urge to appeal up until my results over the next few seasons (and TR/WTN/UTR dynamic ratings) improve comfortably into 3.5 territory. I don't intend to play on a 4.0 team or tournament anytime soon, so if an appeal up is granted it's for my personal satisfaction only. 3.5 is good for my current skill level (I was 4.0 back in my late 20s then took 20 years off due to shoulder). Will try to win more often and by bigger margins. 
antony
Hall of Fame
Some interesting info from WTN:
I have a long ways to go! But pleasantly surprised and happy with my progress.
take lessons from a coach that utilizes frame-by-frame video analysis. Getting SwingVision and watching yourself is helpful tooThanks everyone, I'll resist the urge to appeal up until my results over the next few seasons (and TR/WTN/UTR dynamic ratings) improve comfortably into 3.5 territory. I don't intend to play on a 4.0 team or tournament anytime soon, so if an appeal up is granted it's for my personal satisfaction only. 3.5 is good for my current skill level (I was 4.0 back in my late 20s then took 20 years off due to shoulder). Will try to win more often and by bigger margins.
greg_atlanta
New User
I've had two opponents record matches (with my permission) and it is educational. I look stiff, but such is life in early 50s. I plan to retire in 2-3 years and may seek out lessons if I'm playing more often in retirement. For now I just need to play more against both big hitters and pushers. Low pace bothers me, but a 3.5 should be able to handle everything.
antony
Hall of Fame
Have you started bageling 3.0C's yet?
Can I ask what your doubles records is in same-gender matches?
I am surprised that you didn't get bumped up! Are you turning 65? I don't know if they do an automatic step down as you age?
schmke
Legend
I don't believe there are any automatic bump downs for age. There are some rules allowing for players at 60+ and 65+ to have appeals granted automatically, but nothing that suppresses ratings to my knowledge.
The more confounding thing is that @Moon Shooter was on a team that went to playoffs and finished second in flight to a team that went on to win Sectionals and make the semis at Nationals. That is usually not a recipe for any sort of negative regional adjustment in the year-end calculations, but that seems to have happened here for @Moon Shooter and a few teammates. Sometimes I just think the USTA misses on year-end levels and this is an example of that.
The more confounding thing is that @Moon Shooter was on a team that went to playoffs and finished second in flight to a team that went on to win Sectionals and make the semis at Nationals. That is usually not a recipe for any sort of negative regional adjustment in the year-end calculations, but that seems to have happened here for @Moon Shooter and a few teammates. Sometimes I just think the USTA misses on year-end levels and this is an example of that.
greg_atlanta
New User
Haven't had the opportunity lately since I'm playing on 3.5 teams and one 3.5 tournament last year. Most of my opponents are in the grey area between 3.0 and 3.5 (like me). Honestly I just don't have enough matches, I may play in more tournaments this year since team play is sporadic. Also going to play more ALTA next year (Atlanta league) which is off the records for USTA, but good for match experience (doubles only though).
antony
Hall of Fame
3.5 will be yours before you know it once you start bageling 3.0C's. I'm rooting for you!!!! Fundamentals!!! I guess if you beat a few 3.5C's that would do it too. I think most 3.5C's bagel 3.0C's though, is what I'm saying.
I hope you play outside of USTA as well! I can't stand the rigidity of the typical USTA league structure, personally.
greg_atlanta
New User
@antony thanks for the encouragement! I'm old school serve and volley, so perhaps I belong in the 90s dustbin. It throws people off at first, but then they get used to it and enjoy the target practice. But I think baseline tennis is boring, esp moonball doubles where the player at net might as well pull up a chair.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I played 26 same gender matches and 9 mixed matches.
Did the mixed throw my UTR rating high? My mixed record was 2-7. I had the worst TR performances in mixed but that doesn't necessarily translate to UTR. There were 3 mixed matches where I played with a 4.0 female that had an unusually low UTR. UTR had her below a 4.0 and I know she is close to as good as I am. So she should be about a point higher. That may have inflated my rating but we lost 2 of the matches.
On the other hand I also played with a few partners who were low end USTA 3.0s that had UTRs in the upper 4s - like 4.7X and really they are much worse then her - so that hurt my UTR rating. So I think it was at least a swap. And the other thing is before the cut off for USTA I had a UTR of around 5.8X. After the usta cut off I played poorly in at least one Tri level play off game that correctly drove my UTR down. My only excuse was lack of coffee but I couldn't hit a return in to save my life.
IMO what mainly drove my UTR up was my performance in 3.5 mens 18+ matches where I played doubles one (or tri level) against top end 3.5 players. They typically had upper 5 UTRs. Since many of my opponents made it to sectionals and did fairly well I think that makes sense. I thought for sure my match performances from 18+ 3.5 level would boost my rating.
TennisRecord.com - Estimated Tennis Ratings & Stats
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I am 54 years old will be 55 next year. I have wondered if age is a factor at preventing bumps. As noted in this thread WTN severely penalizes older players by making them start with a much worse rating. I am not sure if USTA also has age enter the equation. Before ratings came out a local league coodinator asked if I would still run my 3.0 teams if I got bumped. And I said no. But I don't think she could do anything with ratings even if she wanted to.
That said one guy who is older then me was a 3.0 and has not won a single set in 3 years. And this year he played 3, 3.5 matches and lost every set never getting more then 3 games in a set - and he got bumped up to 3.5. He has since successfully appealed back down to 3.0. He is lucky he was not on my team that went to sectionals.
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Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I don't understand how the bold can happen. Isn't it just an algorithm. How can they "miss" it? Did they not enter a match or something? I don't know if you had me being bumped up the last 3 years but TR, did so maybe they "missed" it a couple of years in a row?
MGArchitect
Rookie
@Moon Shooter From all your descriptions, I would assume you would have been a bump up. Surprised you were not. If you really want to move up, you could try to appeal your rating up. I have seen other players do that and be successful in their appeals.
schmke
Legend
There are year-end adjustments they do based on Nationals and how sections/regions do in playoffs. And some years there do seem to be broader adjustments made by region. So yes, it _should_ all be an algorithm, but there is some human input into it I believe.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
No thanks. I admit I am disappointed but I do not intend to play on a 4.0 team as someone that had to appeal up to a 3.5. I might give it a try if I was a 3.5c but in my area it would be bad form as a 3.5a (that appealed up). So I do not see any reason to appeal up.
MGArchitect
Rookie
Then why does it appear you are complaining so much about not being bumped up?
What is your actual goal here? Is it just to try to understand the algorithm that gets used? Clearly you are not interested in being placed properly or you would be more proactive about it.
I can't speak for Moon Shooter but there is some validation from your rating going up objectively.
It does seem the USTA may have a formula that is more tailored to larger cities.
He's also been frustrated w/ lower level 3.0s (I assume his friends/teammates) not having much of an avenue for tennis in his area so he's advocated for allowing them to mix in w/ 3.5 womens or developing a coed league.
I'm not opposed but as I live in a larger city, this is not an issue. 3.0s have a lot of teams to play on though of course captains still prefer stronger 3.0s.
It does seem the USTA may have a formula that is more tailored to larger cities.
He's also been frustrated w/ lower level 3.0s (I assume his friends/teammates) not having much of an avenue for tennis in his area so he's advocated for allowing them to mix in w/ 3.5 womens or developing a coed league.
I'm not opposed but as I live in a larger city, this is not an issue. 3.0s have a lot of teams to play on though of course captains still prefer stronger 3.0s.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
This thread is about mapping different rating systems. The goal of my posts is to discuss those different rating systems.
There are people better then me that did not get bumped to 3.5 and people worse then me that did get bumped. I have no way to know where the mistakes were made, so I don’t know what you mean by being placed “properly.” I have played over 100 matches in the past three years - so the algo has plenty of data. I am in no position to second guess it one way the other.
who and how decided that those 'people' are better/worse than you? Clearly not the computer that looks at the results..... Was that based on your own 'eye' test?
greg_atlanta
New User
so i played today in 3.5 winter league for the first time since August against a 3.5S player and lost pretty bad (i was sloppy, but he was just better). not confident i truly belong at 3.5. but... decided to go ahead and appeal up and it worked! 3.5A now 
(hopefully i can turn that into a 3.5C this time next year)
(hopefully i can turn that into a 3.5C this time next year)
antony
Hall of Fame
Once you come to terms with that fact that you are in fact a 3.0C, you can face reality and make the changes you need to make to start bageling 3.0C's and then 3.5's. I too once was a 3.0C and believed that I should at least be a 3.5. Nope, not then lol.so i played today in 3.5 winter league for the first time since August against a 3.5S player and lost pretty bad (i was sloppy, but he was just better). not confident i truly belong at 3.5. but... decided to go ahead and appeal up and it worked! 3.5A now
Now I just use UTR and WTN since I'm not paying more to play less in a USTA traditional league or tournament structure. Also, enough players I play are computer-rated USTA players so I can still gauge where my level is pretty well.
antony
Hall of Fame
it's always been my dream to get a 3.0 Gold Ball
CiscoPC600
Hall of Fame
I thought Gold Balls were only age divisions?
antony
Hall of Fame
I don’t know and I don’t really care, but I think it’s just for the national champion(s) of each division
CiscoPC600
Hall of Fame
Ha, yeah its age groups only for which there is national championship tournament as well. I think.
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