Share your WTN - Crowd sourcing the NTRP to WTN mapping

NTRP: 4.5C
Doubles: 15.3
Singles: 11.9

I've only played two USTA singles matches in the past three years, which were in one tournament my first year as a 4.5. Any other singles on my record are defaults, not real matches, where I was just tossed in the lineup as filler.
 
Matthew ATX said:
Is this supposed to be gender neutral? Because I've found 4.0 ladies with a better number than me.
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It is supposed to be. But yeah, there are some really wide ranges of WTNs for a given NTRP gender/level. See my charts earlier in this thread for details.
 
I think wtn still lacks data that would allow them to properly correlate large pools of data. For example men and women basically have two different unconnected pools. The same case happens with college high school and adult players etc. once tournaments happen that combine these players the rating will be more accurate between the pools.

My own rating did change this week! My doubles rating went from 26.5 to 26.3.
 
https://worldtennisnumber.com went live and it has a rating range number but no rating history. So the only missing variables are player volatility and the system constant. It should be possible to calculate the system constant once more rating updates become available and someone is logging them.
 
I give up on the whole thing .... now it says "profile can't load" ... doesn't matter what I do ... nothing will load ... not my membership info, WTN, nothing. since Tuesday
 
OnTheLine said:
I give up on the whole thing .... now it says "profile can't load" ... doesn't matter what I do ... nothing will load ... not my membership info, WTN, nothing. since Tuesday
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On usta.com or worldtennisnumber.com? I can look you up on both.
 
schmke said:
On usta.com or worldtennisnumber.com? I can look you up on both.
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usta.com ...
the other I still show ... I just found it ... missing some results it seems ...

Do wonder what will happen when I need to renew my USTA membership in a month or so ... LOL
 
nyta2 said:
low to middling ntrp4.5 (according to tennisrecord ~4.2) here...

my WTN:
singles: 11.0
singles(GZ): 9.1-12.8
doubles: 16.6

~14-17 seems about right?

for completeness:

my UTR
singles: 8.09
doubles: 7.53
Click to expand...
[update]
ntrp: 4.5C
tr: ~4.2
wtn(s): 10.9
wtn(d): 16.4
wtn(s.gz): 12.8-9.1
utr(s): 7.98
utr(d): 7.63

interesting to see my utr(s) shows me getting worse, and my wtn(s) shows me getting better :P
 
OnTheLine said:
Yup .. missing 5 matches ... not that they were that spiffy :censored:
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I'm pretty sure some player's have had their WTN's updated with more recent matches, so it is a bit baffling how/why the data the USTA provides to the ITF for WTN calculations would be inconsistent regarding the date the matches are through.
 
I just looked at the world tennis site and it had a rating for me my very I first game of 29.9. I self rated as a 3.0. It was the first match they have recorded of one of my opponents as well. He was also a 3.0 self rate and he also started out with a 29.9

it was the first day of matches for my 3.0 self rate female partner and her starting rating seemed to be 32.1. So they seem to be picking numbers for self rates based on your self rating. Maybe we can see what number they start with for all self rates. For doubles it seems 29.9 for m 3.0 and 32.1 for f 3.0.

edit: it also seems hit or miss in what matches they include. They have some matches from a sectional that tennis link is missing but they seem to be missing some random usta matches.
 
On https://worldtennisnumber.com/, I'm missing results from 6/5/22 and 5/21/22. Both of these matches are USTA 18 & Over Adult League matches. I don't understand why https://worldtennisnumber.com/ didn't pick them up. In fact, all five lines of my team's match on 6/5/22 are recorded on TennisLink, but missing from WTN. It's astonishing to me that WTN would have such data problems given their direct data feed from the USTA.

Does anyone know how to report data problems to WTN?
 
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ThinkPad said:
On https://worldtennisnumber.com/, I'm missing results from 6/5/22 and 5/21/22. Both of these matches are USTA 18 & Over Adult League matches. I don't understand why https://worldtennisnumber.com/ didn't pick them up. In fact, all five lines of my team's match on 6/5/22 are recorded on TennisLink, but missing from WTN. It's astonishing to me that WTN would have such data problems given their direct data feed from the USTA.

Does anyone know how to report data problems to WTN?
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I am missing results from 6/7, 6/9, 6/11, 6/12 & 6/14 .... perhaps they are just a month behind.
(Those are all USTA league season or post-season matches.)
 
Just realized ... all of my missing matches are there ... but listed as rating N/A for all of them.
Guessing they just did a scrape of the data and the magic computers are working on it.
 
OnTheLine said:
Just realized ... all of my missing matches are there ... but listed as rating N/A for all of them.
Guessing they just did a scrape of the data and the magic computers are working on it.
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WTN isn't scraping USTA data. They've been given an API. So, the data transfer should be bulletproof.
 
One complaint I have with UTR is rather poor USTA Adult and Flex league data inclusion. UTR misses numerous matches and contains errors on certain recorded matches. Given that WTN is provided USTA data by USTA, I expected nearly perfect data transmission. But that's not the case. I've seen numerous omissions.
 
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ThinkPad said:
WTN isn't scraping USTA data. They've been given an API. So, the data transfer should be bulletproof.
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Should be, could be and actually bulletproof ... all different things.

Obviously, mine is a month behind. The new data just showed in past day or so ... and all 5 of those matches are listed as N/A on the WTN site.
 
OnTheLine said:
Should be, could be and actually bulletproof ... all different things.

Obviously, mine is a month behind. The new data just showed in past day or so ... and all 5 of those matches are listed as N/A on the WTN site.
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Having an API and mechanism for the USTA to provide the data to the ITF, and the USTA successfully using it and nothing going wrong on the ITF side, are not the same thing.
 
OnTheLine said:
Just realized ... all of my missing matches are there ... but listed as rating N/A for all of them.
Guessing they just did a scrape of the data and the magic computers are working on it.
Click to expand...
As of last Wednesday, they had 2 of my 8 summer league matches listed. Looks like they pulled a batch since Wednesday, and now they have 6 of 8 listed, but the 4 new ones haven't been calculated yet. So my assumption is the new ones will be factored in this Wednesday, and then hopefully they pull another batch soon. The two they're missing are not the most recent ones though -- they're from early June. :unsure:
 
Idaho MEP said:
As of last Wednesday, they had 2 of my 8 summer league matches listed. Looks like they pulled a batch since Wednesday, and now they have 6 of 8 listed, but the 4 new ones haven't been calculated yet. So my assumption is the new ones will be factored in this Wednesday, and then hopefully they pull another batch soon. The two they're missing are not the most recent ones though -- they're from early June. :unsure:
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Yep, something strange is going on and it isn't consistent. Some have recent matches show up in a timely fashion, others have matches from a month ago still to show up.
 
All 14 of my recorded matches this year now say "N/A." Also, the two matches that never made it into the WTN db are still missing as well. WTN has some work to do. How accurate can the ratings be if the ratings are generated on bad data? GIGO as they used to say.

If ITF spent their development funds on the backend, instead of on marketing (3 years of promotional hype) they might have had a viable product.
 
It's Wednesday, how's your updated WTN looking? Same ol' same ol' here. No new matches included. Previous missing matches still missing (despite an official notice submitted with the help desk) and all matches recorded say NA. The new world rating benchmark is a flop. How did USTA get so snookered?

But, despite the lack of new data added, the little speedo thingy shows a WTN_d improvement of 2.4 points. So, maybe they're updating the algo behind the scenes. Who knows? So much for the transparency they promised.
 
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My results at state from 6/10 - 6/12/22 were added last week and my WTN was updated today. For reference, my ratings were updated on UTR the week after our matches, and the week after that on TR

17.0 > 16.3 singles (grey checkmark)
12.0 > 11.9 doubles (blue)

A couple interesting things of note
  • Last week I looked at my ratings history and my results from 2016 (the first year listed) were all listed as N/A. I only played in a 3.5 singles / doubles league that year
  • The next year with posted results, 2019, I had a rating of 3.9 WTN in the first doubles match of the year. How I achieved that with very mediocre results against NTRP 3.5s in the previous period is beyond me
  • Now all of my doubles matches, from 2016-2022, are listed as N/A
 
ThinkPad said:
It's Wednesday, how's your updated WTN looking? Same ol' same ol' here. No new matches included. Previous missing matches still missing (despite an official notice submitted with the help desk) and all matches recorded say NA. The new world rating benchmark is a flop. How did USTA get so snookered?

But, despite the lack of new data added, the little speedo thingy shows a WTN_d improvement of 2.4 points. So, maybe they're updating the algo behind the scenes. Who knows? So much for the transparency they promised.
Click to expand...
Their definition of transparency is 1) updating weekly, and 2) showing your rating to the tenth :) Being clear on what matches are included or why a WTN changes with seemingly no matches played, nah, no need for transparency there :unsure:

I'm actually not sure what the N/A really means. That is all I see on all my matches, even ones from months ago that I'm reasonably certain have been included.

My WTNd went up 0.1, presumably due to losing a Mixed match that I would have thought was included in last weeks rating but apparently wasn't. And I had another match this weekend on Saturday that seemingly wasn't included this week. My guess is the USTA sends results over to the ITF on a Friday and the ratings that include those matches are published the following Wednesday. So if you play your matches on weekends, you have an ~11 day wait for your rating to get updated.
 
SlangB said:
My results at state from 6/10 - 6/12/22 were added last week and my WTN was updated today. For reference, my ratings were updated on UTR the week after our matches, and the week after that on TR

17.0 > 16.3 singles (grey checkmark)
12.0 > 11.9 doubles (blue)

A couple interesting things of note
  • Last week I looked at my ratings history and my results from 2016 (the first year listed) were all listed as N/A. I only played in a 3.5 singles / doubles league that year
  • The next year with posted results, 2019, I had a rating of 3.9 WTN in the first doubles match of the year. How I achieved that with very mediocre results against NTRP 3.5s in the previous period is beyond me
  • Now all of my doubles matches, from 2016-2022, are listed as N/A
Click to expand...
3.9! Talk about an outlier! Man, they need to scrub their data.
 
schmke said:
Their definition of transparency is 1) updating weekly, and 2) showing your rating to the tenth :) Being clear on what matches are included or why a WTN changes with seemingly no matches played, nah, no need for transparency there :unsure:

I'm actually not sure what the N/A really means. That is all I see on all my matches, even ones from months ago that I'm reasonably certain have been included.

My WTNd went up 0.1, presumably due to losing a Mixed match that I would have thought was included in last weeks rating but apparently wasn't. And I had another match this weekend on Saturday that seemingly wasn't included this week. My guess is the USTA sends results over to the ITF on a Friday and the ratings that include those matches are published the following Wednesday. So if you play your matches on weekends, you have an ~11 day wait for your rating to get updated.
Click to expand...
UTR updates all matches, including weekend matches, within 48 hours. Seems like UTR has nothing to worry about. It's easier to search for players on UTR too. WTN doesn't provide the player's City or Section. I frequently have several players with the same name and no way to differentiate them! Lame.
 
ThinkPad said:
It's Wednesday, how's your updated WTN looking?
Click to expand...
WTNs: 18.1 gray (was 25.8 when WTN was first published)
WTNd: 22.5 blue (was 23.5 when WTN was first published)
  • earlier all my doubles matches had "N/A", but they have a # now
  • still missing two league matches from early June (one singles and one doubles)
TennisRecord: 3.74
  • has all the league matches, but missing recent tournament data
UTRs: 6.23 (100%)
UTRd: 5.50 (blue check mark)
  • looks like it includes everything
_____

Seems like UTR wins: most up-to-date with the data, and seems to correspond the best to my impression of the people I play against. In my case WTN was significantly behind for a long time, but now it's mostly caught up and seems at least in the ballpark. Still doesn't seem quite as accurate as UTR, in my opinion.
 
Part of the architecture enabling WTN is the Tennis Open Data Standard (TODS). Its a common information exchange standard that means the ITF doesn't have to scrape data from a bunch of different organizations. If the USTA isn't formatting the data correctly then WTN can't read it and you might get an error. Unlike other issues with WTN, I think this one will get resolved as the USTA and WTN get better at using TODS. It would be even nicer if the USTA allowed anyone to access it. Then the likes of UTR and TR wouldn't waste the USTA's resources scraping data.
 
BallBag said:
Part of the architecture enabling WTN is the Tennis Open Data Standard (TODS). Its a common information exchange standard that means the ITF doesn't have to scrape data from a bunch of different organizations. If the USTA isn't formatting the data correctly then WTN can't read it and you might get an error. Unlike other issues with WTN, I think this one will get resolved as the USTA and WTN get better at using TODS. It would be even nicer if the USTA allowed anyone to access it. Then the likes of UTR and TR wouldn't waste the USTA's resources scraping data.
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TODS is only "open" if you are a national governing body ;)

Obviously there are some niggling issues somewhere in the process of exchanging matches or calculating matches, but I really would have thought they'd work it out before publishing. It isn't _that_ hard to do this.
 
schmke said:
TODS is only "open" if you are a national governing body ;)

Obviously there are some niggling issues somewhere in the process of exchanging matches or calculating matches, but I really would have thought they'd work it out before publishing. It isn't _that_ hard to do this.
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I have never said "it can't be that hard to do this" without later realizing that it is that hard to do this.
 
schmke said:
TODS is only "open" if you are a national governing body ;)

Obviously there are some niggling issues somewhere in the process of exchanging matches or calculating matches, but I really would have thought they'd work it out before publishing. It isn't _that_ hard to do this.
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It must be hard to do because no one can make money doing it. BTW TODS is out on the interweb. Its just an object model.
 
Playing 3 matches of 8.0 mixed has moved my WTN doubles needle from 13.1 to 12.7, but I’m not sure how many of my three were included. My TR mixed rating stayed at 4.50.
 
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travlerajm said:
Playing 3 matches of 8.0 mixed has moved my WTN doubles needle from 13.1 to 12.7, but I’m not sure how many of my three were included. My TR mixed rating stayed at 4.50.
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I think WTN only has the first two. My mixed rating for you went up 0.02 from playing those two.
 
tskep said:
It must be hard to do because no one can make money doing it. BTW TODS is out on the interweb. Its just an object model.
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Yep, which is why I say it isn't so hard. There is an established and open standard for exchanging the data. Both sides just need to implement sending/receiving it.
 
travlerajm said:
Playing 3 matches of 8.0 mixed has moved my WTN doubles needle from 13.1 to 12.7, but I’m not sure how many of my three were included. My TR mixed rating stayed at 4.50.
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I will be curious to see what my mixed results will do to this.

When they finally put in the missing matches I went up (or down depending on how you look at it) about 0.4 .... with the same results my UTR increased 0.2

My mixed results (not yet in WTN) are 2 good wins and 1 good loss ... all of them I believe on paper the computer would have said we should have lost.
 
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