a10best
Legend
I certainly won't be watching him. Stroke mechanics are all-around unpleasant and gives me that fear of watching pickel. I like beautiful tennis.
Plus, he's disrespectful to opponents.
Shelton is an athlete who happens to play tennis.
- Thread starter er0
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Plus, he's disrespectful to opponents.
RaulRamirez
Legend
Your prerogative.
Hansen
Professional
and then you have luka, jokic, brady etc…
skills pay the bills
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Exactly. I have heard a lot of **** talk on this board that tennis has worst athletes and all american sports have great ones. Uh uh uh
Luka, Nicola are fat
a10best
Legend
not singling him out alone. I'm not fond of a lot of players strokes nowadays like Med's, Karen or Tiafoe's FH.
Guga and Safin, both around 6'4"
The Great Gatsby
New User
During one of his matches on Tennis Channel this week I believe one of the commentators said that he didn't start playing tennis full-time until 14.
Considering how "unpolished" his game is relative to other pros I can believe that. And I believe Shelton has said as much in interviews -- how his sister was full-time tennis with their father as coach, but he wasn't that way until apparently his mid-teens or thereabout.
As others have stated I don't believe he could have been a basketball player, because at 6'4" he would have been a point guard. And seeing how he moves during warmup and on court during matches, I don't see NBA point guard. Football? Perhaps. Football is basically speed, size and strength, and Ben Shelton has that.
In comparison to the other American players, Ben Shelton is easily of course head and shoulders above all of them.
Taylor Fritz is a better tennis player because he can hit the ball better than Ben. He's someone who obviously has a polished game, because at 14 he had already been full-time tennis and not just starting full-time like Shelton. Taylor Fritz of course is not much of an athlete, though.
Tommy Paul is kind of a decent athlete, I think. Nothing crazy, but just okay. Francis Tiafoe is kind of awkward, in my opinion. When I look at him I do not see a top flight athlete. I just see someone with some homemade strokes who has kind of bluffed his way into the top 20 in the world. Korda is fine, I guess. Nothing crazy with him either.
The new Americans: Learner Tien is obviously not a very athletic person. But he can hit the ball well, and in tennis that's enough. Likewise with Alex Michelson. I would not call that guy very athletic either. But he can hit the ball well, and again, that seems to be enough.
Overall I do like Ben out of all of the Americans. He's the only one that I think is exciting to watch. Hopefully he's top 10 by the end of Miami, and let's see what he can do on the grass this year, and then at the Open.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
You are narrowing down "athletic" to a very specific definition
And even within those confines I would argue you're wrong about Tommy Paul. Dude is a ferocious athlete.
I'm also not sure that Fritz is a better player than Shelton. Shelton has obvious game and is smarter/more strategic than anyone gives him credit for (don't want to speculate on why that is)
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Reminds me of a mashup of Roddick, Nadal and PETE. Dude is all brute force.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Shapo just won a title by going thru 3 top ten players/the top 3 seeds. When a truly athletic and talented player is on, no stopping them
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
The Great Gatsby
New User
Yes, I am using a specific definition of "athletic." I'm looking at athletic from an aesthetic point of view (grace, beauty; etc. see: Grigor Dimitrov).
Of course, someone could be good or even great at their sport and not really be that athletic. Medvedv is a tremendous tennis player, but I wouldn't call that guy athletic (from an aesthetic point of view). He's just good at tennis.
Ben Shelton I really wouldn't call athletic from a graceful point of view. He's athletic from a dynamic/powerful point of view, for lack of a better description.
Also, Tommy Paul. Yes, he's a decent athlete, I think. There's just something about him that rubs me in a weird way. I don't buy into what he's doing when he plays an attacking game (when he sometimes serves and volleys). Because I feel that if he were a better athlete he could pull it off better. And the reason why he doesn't pull it off better is because I think he's just a decent athlete and not a really good athlete. So we agree to disagree, I guess.
As for Taylor, I guess I mean he's a better tennis player in the sense that he's a more polished tennis player from the standpoint of hitting groundstrokes. The next time they play could Ben beat him? Sure. But it'll most likely be because Ben is a much better and dynamic athlete than Taylor and not necessarily because he's a better tennis player from a technical standpoint.
Last, I do think Ben plays a smart game given his abilities. For the most part, at least. Meaning, against lower-ranked players the way he plays is fine. Against the top guys though he's not going to beat them from the baseline. Kicking in his serves and rallying with the Sinners of the world seems like a losing proposition to me. You have to take the racket out of these guy's hands because they're simply better than him from the baseline, and will probably always be better than him from the baseline.
TheFifthSet
Legend
NBA players in the 6’0-6’5 range are absolutely better athletes than their tennis counterparts at those heights.
Jokic is 6’10 1/2 with a 7’3 wingspan, the court vision of Magic Johnson and the hands of John McEnroe. Don’t really need much raw athleticism in basketball if you’ve got all that, but he’s not the norm and you can’t really compare giants in basketball to non-giants in tennis if you’re trying to make a point here.
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Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
It's ok to say "I don't like the way his shots look"-- that is fair. Seems like that is important to you. And I understand, I didn't immediately warm to Shelton and I thought he was just a basher until I heard an announcer breaking down his strategy. Ben likes to actually attack righty forehand side as opposed to doing what you'd expect and going cross to their BH. There is a lot more going on than just "kick serves and rallies"
Paul is known to be a superior athlete, he just hasn't had the results bc he was a big partier and just an overall chill dude. He's taking it more seriously now and making an AO SF in 2023 was proof
What you're talking about is technique and style. And yeah I'm also impressed when someone can get it done AND make it look great. That's why Shapo is so tantalizing. He has IT. Power + speed + grace
I love Musetti as well. But Shelton beat him convincingly at AO and I had to look at Shelton differently after that. He wasn't just hitting big
The Great Gatsby
New User
Yeah, it's all subjective and everyone has a different definition of what constitutes athleticism. For some, merely excellent hand eye coordination is athleticism. To me it's just excellent hand eye coordination and not necessarily athleticism.
When it comes to tennis I think Pete Sampras is the greatest athlete to ever play tennis. Others may not agree with that but for me he's the standard that I measure everyone else against. And Federer, Nadal and Djokovic all won more slams, but I feel Sampras was a better athlete than all three of them. One day a player will surely come along that I think is better than Sampras, but I haven't seen him yet. I hope to soon, though.
As for Shelton, the first time that I saw him play I thought he was probably the best athlete (from a dynamic power standpoint) on tour. It was immediate for me. Whether or not he was a better tennis player than this player or that player was beside the point. Also, his strategy is very clear to me, I understand it. Of course, again, I don't think he can beat the top guys playing like that because I don't think he's good enough to beat them from the baseline. He doesn't move well enough, and I don't think he's ever going to move well enough. So I think he has to play them different. But it is what it is.
Chris Wilson
Rookie
Out of curiosity, why do you think Sampras was the best athlete? His tennis skill was certainly top notched, but I don't think of him as an exceptional athlete per se. What is your criteria for athlete?
The Great Gatsby
New User
Yeah, winning the French isn't really that big of a test of athleticism in my book. I think it's more of a test of endurance.
During Sampras' career Chang won the French, Agassi won the French, Courier won it twice. Are any of them better athletes than Sampras? I don't think any of them are, yet they all won the French and he didn't. No one who won the French during Sampras' entire career I thought was a better athlete than him, but they all won the French and he didn't.
Shelton I don't think will ever come close to winning the French, but at the same time I think there's probably only a handful of guys playing today who are as good an athlete as he is, or better. Off the top of my head, Alcaraz is probably a better athlete than him, and maybe a few others.
It's one of those hard things to explain or put into words. I just look at him play and think I've never seen anybody play tennis better than he did.
The highlight reels...
He's the first player that I saw from the start of his career to the finish and I was amazed by him when I first saw him play when he was 18. Before Sampras I guess I would say McEnroe I thought was the greatest tennis player ever, but that immediately changed I guess in 1990. McEnroe was great, but Sampras was the next level to me.
Even when Federer beat Sampras at Wimbledon I didn't think Federer was a better athlete than Sampras. I just thought he played better and beat him on that day, age differences aside. And of course Federer won more, but I still think Sampras was the better athlete.
Overall there is really no boxes I can check that says I think this person is a better athlete than that person, it's just merely an eye test for me.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Again, you just like the way it looks. That doesn't make it more athletic. Those clips are great but after a while I realized it's all the same thing. Running forehands and drop volleys.
Watch a video of the inferior athlete that is Federer and you'll see tweeners, droppers from everywhere, overheads to return overheads, and a much more aesthetic swing especially on the backhand. And he's a better mover.
Watch Shapo jump several feet into the air while hitting a backhand winner. If Pete was such a superior athlete, why didn't he hit shots like that? Racquet and string tech?
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
pete is a great athlete, almost every top 100 tennis player is great athlete because there are zero timeouts in tennis. great stamina, speed is necessity for tennis.
there are some very unathletic players like Bublik and Kyrgios who coast on playing kamikaze tennis but they are very few.
there are some very unathletic players like Bublik and Kyrgios who coast on playing kamikaze tennis but they are very few.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
The heart rate gets jacked after constant rallies and if you don't serve in time there is shotclock now. In NBA, the match that plays for 48 mins takes around 2.5 hrs to complete
In tennis, in BO5, that is almost a starting point. UTS says average BO5 match time in 2024 was 2:46 and in this match, only single player is playing. No substitutions.
Amazing.
In tennis, in BO5, that is almost a starting point. UTS says average BO5 match time in 2024 was 2:46 and in this match, only single player is playing. No substitutions.
Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Statistics Timeline
How tennis game evolved through time
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
Amazing.
The Great Gatsby
New User
Yes, again, this is all subjective. This is all opinion. There really is no objective way to determine if someone is a better athlete or not. It all comes down to this one looks better to me than that one.
I believe Paul Annacone, who coached both Sampras and Federer, thinks that Gael Monfils is the greatest athlete to play tennis that he's ever seen. I have never once in my life thought that, and I remember first seeing him play when he was a junior because they showed some of his matches because he was closing in on winning the junior grand slam. I think he's a good athlete, but I have never thought that he's the greatest athlete to play tennis. Paul Annacone does though.
In regard to Federer and Shapovalov, I think they're both good athletes.
Here's where the subjective part comes in though: people hitting great shots from the baseline has never been something that's all that impressive to me. People playing from the baseline in general is something that's never been all that impressive to me. And this is because I don't think it takes a great deal of talent to play from the baseline. Anybody can play from the baseline. A child can play from the baseline.
People who can play serve and volley, that's impressive to me. Because playing serve and volley is incredibly difficult to do. It takes more talent, I feel. And this of course comes from just playing. I can stay back on the baseline and play all day. When I play serve and volley it's more difficult. I think it's incredibly more fun but it's also more difficult. So I just naturally gravitate to players who play a style that I think requires more talent and think is more difficult to do.
So I've never warmed to Federer all that much, even when he played serve and volley, because I never thought he was all that great at it. He could just do it somewhat. And Shapovalov can hit great shots, but I don't think he's much of a serve and volley player either. And there's of course a very good reason for that, because it's simply not his game. His game is to play from the baseline and hit shots. Again though, I think they're both good athletes. Obviously not at the level of Sampras in my view, but that's just my opinion. And Federer of course factually and objectively has more grand slams titles than Sampras, so is the more celebrated player. But I still don't think he's the better athlete.
Djokovic factually and objectively has more grand slams titles than Federer but I don't think he's the better athlete than Federer, or the better tennis player. He just has more grand slams. Nadal is someone I would have to give more thought to. Do I think he's a better athlete than Djokovic? Yes. Better than Federer? I don't know. Perhaps. I would have to think about it though, and I kind of really don't care, but y'know...
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Saying you like S&V better is one thing. Totally fine.
But your argument has become "athleticism is the ability to play Serve and Volley tennis". And that isn't personal preference, that is full on bias.
By this logic Mischa Zverev is the greatest athlete the game has seen since Sampras, maybe even more so because Sampras did frequently play from the baseline--and according to you, that is easy and not athletic.
Re Monfils, he can dunk a basketball and PETE couldn't. But since Pete's gamestyle was to rush the net, you consider him a better athlete. I'm sorry but it's really not logical
The Great Gatsby
New User
Yes, it is full on bias. I think the best athletes play serve and volley tennis better than those who aren't as gifted athletically. And those who aren't as gifted athletically stay at the baseline. Because they know if they come to the net they're probably going to flub the volley. This is how I feel. This is my bias. Agree to disagree, it's fine.
Again Medvedev: I think he's an incredible tennis player. Do I think he can serve and volley well? Hell no, because I don't think he's that good of an athlete. And that's the case with most if not all of the tall guys. They can bomb serves but they can't really serve and volley that well because they're not that good of an athlete. So they stay back at the baseline.
Likewise with players of more average height. Those who are good athletes will try and serve and volley. Those who aren't as good of an athlete are staying at the baseline.
Also, no, I don't think Mischa Zverev was that good. I'm of course aware of him but I have never actually watched him play until I just looked at some clips today. And yeah, I can see why he wasn't that great of a player. You can serve and volley but that doesn't automatically make you good. Like in all sports there's levels to this. And he doesn't look like that good of an athlete to me either. So there's no surprise to me on the level of his career.
Ben Shelton has decent volleys to me for the most part. Sometimes I feel he tries to put too much work on his volleys instead of just hitting them, but it is what it is.
Regarding dunking a basketball: Pete Sampras was a 6'1" white guy, I would be surprised if he could dunk. I think Pete Sampras was the best athlete to play tennis, but I never thought he was among the best athletes on the planet during his playing days. I just thought he was the best athlete when it comes to tennis.
Just out of curiosity, who do you think is the best athlete to ever play tennis?
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Pete could dunk, but not with a basketball. To be sure, he had one of the best vertical games we've ever seen. And so he's up there for best athletes to play, but I would say that bc of his vertical, not because he played S/V style.
And if S/V is the ultimate expression of athleticism in tennis then why aren't we seeing more players do it?
Jimmy Connors did more S/V later in his career. Why? To compensate for declining athleticism by shortening points.
I think there is a better case to be made that S/V has been made obsolete BY the increase in athleticism in the game (as well as the advances in string tech), because now players can smoke balls from anywhere on the court.
Best overall athletes we've seen in tennis....ok let's go.
Monfils, PETE, Roger, Safin, Rios, Shapo. Short list
Rafa and Novak? Feels like it's wrong to exclude them, but there's too many things they don't/can't do.
McGradey
Hall of Fame
Was underwhelmed by watching him against Sinner live in Melbourne. He wasn’t given time to unload on his groundies and looked out of ideas pretty quickly. Thought he would’ve fought a bit harder from what I’ve seen from him in the past where he seems like a player who doesn’t go away in matches when he gets behind.
The Great Gatsby
New User
I think players today grew up wanting to play like Agassi and not Sampras. Agassi was more flashy and more popular. Pete was boring and just played tennis. Or to be more current, I think players today grew up wanting to play like Nadal and Djokovic, and Federer too for that matter.
Also, we know for a fact that roughly 25 years ago they slowed down the courts at Wimbledon by changing the grass to 100% perennial rye grass. That made for a more durable and consistent playing surface, but it also slowed down the court speed. And for roughly 20 years all the courts at the other tournaments have played more or less the same. So you don't have to change your game much at all when it comes to different surfaces. So whatever game you had when you were 12, it still works when you're 22.
Also, we know that the combination of polyester strings, which also came about roughly 25 years ago, and slower courts titled the advantage to the returner.
Even when serve and volley players dominated the game very few of them won things like Roland Garros because of the slow court speed. So when roughly 25 years ago when everything started slowing down and titled more towards a clay court speed, we are where we are today.
You know all of this though, this is basic stuff. And of course I maintain that things are the way they are now not because of some sudden evolution in human development that allowed players to become incredible returners of serves. No, they slowed the courts down. And again, serve and volleyers historically never really dominated clay courts, and when everything is slower now too, we are where we are today.
Also, nearly everyone's playing with a two-handed backhand now. Never in the history of tennis was there a great serve and volley player with a two-handed backhand. There's very few players with two-handed backhands that volley well period. And so today we have almost everyone playing with a two-handed backhand, and lo and behold they don't volley that well by and large. So here we are. Slower courts and nearly everyone with a two-handed backhand, and most of whom can't volley that well.
As for your list of best athletes to play tennis: I can agree with you on that list for the most part. I don't know if I would put Safin and Rios on it, but eh...
If I were doing a top 5, I would have Pete, probably Alcaraz second... and three thru five I'm not sure who I would put there, it's hard.
power_backhand
Rookie
I don't know what you're smoking but Monfils (and Shelton) are already elite players. Did you watch Monfils vs Djokovic us open semi final 2016. Monfils was getting destroyed in the first two sets. He came up with a genuis strategy in the third set and thoroughly out thought djokovic on the court. That was next level tennis IQ. His problem is that Djokovic does everything technically better than him. It's not a tennis IQ problem.
Shelton pretty much wins all of his matches by out smarting his opponent. I'm not sure how you can say Shelton has low tennis IQ. He creatively mixes in pretty much every shot in the game - slice, volley, drop shot, etc. He routinely beats his opponent by finding ways to get into the net or use a drop shot. If any current elite top player has a low tennis IQ, it's Rublev who basically plays every match the exact same way.
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Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Honestly bro I'll just be blunt--a good chunk of these people think Shelton is a dumb brute force player bc black.
power_backhand
Rookie
Deleted
power_backhand
Rookie
I 100% agree with that sentiment. I'd say Hulger Rune has a similar temperament on court to shelton, especially when he first got on tour. He's toned it down a little. Rune got a little hate for his ultra competitive attitude back then, but It's definitely WAY harder for Shelton to get away with it. I'd probably place Tsonga in the low tennis IQ category. But Shelton is far from that. He's a fierce competitor, in your face competitor. He behaves on the tennis court very similar to like a boxer or MMA fighter behaves in the ring. Trust me, he will keep climbing the rankings and may even reach a slam final.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Oh I agree. It was his AO match against Lore Atreides that sold me on him
Musetti is a smart player with a lot of tricks in the bag. And Shelton just outpunched him. It was nasty and I had to respect it even though I didn't like it. I now think he's got "IT" and will be the best American player since Roddick
I see a lot of Nole and Rafa fans saying that Shelton is disrespectful on court bc of his celebrations and I'm like....are you kidding?
Novak rips his shirt off, stalks around the court, screaming, pointing at his nards, smashing racquets into netposts right next to his opponents, screaming right near their faces....then Rafa "vamoooooooos" on nearly every point, and then throwing in the little choreography routine with the hop-step INTO the bicep thrust with the raised knee...I just can't take ppl seriously who liked that stuff but went Full Karen over Shapo "YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHH" or the hang-up gesture
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