# Shooting Opportunities for Youths and Home School Families

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
Shooting is a great sport for youths and home schooling families. It is one of very few sports where teens compete right alongside of adults, and where we have found the adults to be very warm and welcoming and supportive of youth participation. The picture shows my daughter with the inset showing a 600 yard target in a shooting discipline known as F-Class. The 10 ring is a 6″ diameter circle.

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#### sureshs

##### Bionic Poster
Does it encourage violent behavior later on in life? Or has a positive benefit of self-protection if the need arises? Or both?

#### max

##### Legend
My grandfather was a champion skeetshooter, and it's a very appealing sport to me. I've taught archery, which is also pretty nice. Of course, like any competition, the fun comes from having good competitors.

D

#### Deleted member 503267

##### Guest
Drinking milk as a baby encourages violent behavior. Almost 100% of all violent criminals consumed milk as baby. I was allergic so I did not, but I have been shooting guns since I was 8 years old and I am very docile.

#### r2473

##### G.O.A.T.
Shooting is a great sport for youths and home schooling families. It is one of very few sports where teens compete right alongside of adults, and where we have found the adults to be very warm and welcoming and supportive of youth participation. The picture shows my daughter with the inset showing a 600 yard target in a shooting discipline known as F-Class. The 10 ring is a 6″ diameter circle.
Nice shooting. It's obvious your daughter isn't a "pusher" like her old man

#### movdqa

##### Talk Tennis Guru
Does it encourage violent behavior later on in life? Or has a positive benefit of self-protection if the need arises? Or both?

It may bring out the person.

Watching someone drive a car can be enlightening as it's harder to mask emotions when your brain is engaged in the multitasking sensors and analysis required by the activity:

My wife and kids spent some time shooting several years ago with a pistol (with laser targeting), an assault rifle (they can cost thousands of dollars) and a hunting rifle and it's a lot harder than I'd imagined.

It showed me how inaccurate shooting a handgun is over any kind of distance

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#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Shooting is a great sport for youths and home schooling families. It is one of very few sports where teens compete right alongside of adults, and where we have found the adults to be very warm and welcoming and supportive of youth participation. The picture shows my daughter with the inset showing a 600 yard target in a shooting discipline known as F-Class. The 10 ring is a 6″ diameter circle.

That's some good amateur shooting!
I"m a pistol shooter, both IPSC and Practical Pistol, so have never really tried long distance shooting prone and rifle. My best pistol was almost the same as my best rifle, at 125 yards.
My brother has a M-24 from the Army, and a Winchester 700 something in .300 Magnum, a little better than the match .308. I have never shot either.
Just finished a LeeChild Jack Reacher novel, fiction of course, called One Shot, last year, and just put down Personal, the one about USArmy snipers with Barrett's at 3/4 mile, and up.
95% of my groupings are not centered like your daughter's, so she's REALLY good with her rifle of choice. My best Remington 742 groupings, 30.06, at 125 yards was 5" from center at worse, one in 5 within 2" of center, at Sharp Park Shooting Range owned by SF.
If you care, could you tell us what rifle, caliber, and handload?
I can't handle anything more powerful than 30.06, which is why I stopped shooting rifle and never started with shotguns.
Tell you daughter she get's max KUDO's from a former IPSC competitor who was invited to Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Ranch in 1980. That's invited, meaning I didn't have to pay.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
Does it encourage violent behavior later on in life? Or has a positive benefit of self-protection if the need arises? Or both?

Does hitting fuzzy yellow sphere with a racquet encourage hitting people with a racquet later in life? Then why would punching holes in paper with a projectile launcher?

Both develop the skill if the need arises.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
That's some good amateur shooting!
I"m a pistol shooter, both IPSC and Practical Pistol, so have never really tried long distance shooting prone and rifle. My best pistol was almost the same as my best rifle, at 125 yards.
My brother has a M-24 from the Army, and a Winchester 700 something in .300 Magnum, a little better than the match .308. I have never shot either.
Just finished a LeeChild Jack Reacher novel, fiction of course, called One Shot, last year, and just put down Personal, the one about USArmy snipers with Barrett's at 3/4 mile, and up.
95% of my groupings are not centered like your daughter's, so she's REALLY good with her rifle of choice. My best Remington 742 groupings, 30.06, at 125 yards was 5" from center at worse, one in 5 within 2" of center, at Sharp Park Shooting Range owned by SF.
If you care, could you tell us what rifle, caliber, and handload?
I can't handle anything more powerful than 30.06, which is why I stopped shooting rifle and never started with shotguns.
Tell you daughter she get's max KUDO's from a former IPSC competitor who was invited to Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Ranch in 1980. That's invited, meaning I didn't have to pay.

My daughter has several rifles that she competes with. If I recall correctly, that day she used a Savage factory bolt action .223 with a fast twist heavy barrel slinging 80 grain SMKs.

All our children are pretty good with a pistol, at least expert in the NRA pistol marksmanship qualification. I've offered to take them to competitions, but they have declined so far.

#### max

##### Legend
My son went to scout camp last summer. Nice shooting range, .22 cal. setup. I was kind of stunned by his amazing results---he's a natural (I'm not). Scout camps sometimes will have great facilities.

#### maggmaster

##### Hall of Fame
I grew up shooting, my grandfather was a US army rifle instructor and a sharpshooter in World War 2. Proper firearm training teaches discipline and patience. Plus if you get good enough and are athletic some of the combination events like decathlon are a great way for young people to compete at a high level.

#### max

##### Legend
speak of competing! I always wondered about the biathlon, the winter olympic sport combining two crucial Nordic skills: shooting straight and skiing fast! I always thought it was amazing how they have to control their bodies (hearts a'thumpin') from hard ski-racing, to manage to calmly target shoot. Going from 100 mph to 0 mph asap.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
My daughter has several rifles that she competes with. If I recall correctly, that day she used a Savage factory bolt action .223 with a fast twist heavy barrel slinging 80 grain SMKs.

All our children are pretty good with a pistol, at least expert in the NRA pistol marksmanship qualification. I've offered to take them to competitions, but they have declined so far.

Good stuff.....
I can't imagine how a .223 can be accurate at 600 yards. That tiny .22 sized projectile would wander from temperature changes alone, and by wind. My Ruger and AR's (with either 55 or 70 grain bullets, were terrible on gusty, windy days at 125 yards, off a solid sandbag on a table and a solid chair. I found my competition .45's were about the same accuracy, hitting a 6" sq. every time, and half going inside a 2" diameter bullseye. That's off a sandbag, table, and chair of course. Standing, I could hit the top of the bell, or the bottom, which was a foot tall and 6" wide 9 out of 10 shots. We had cross winds, left to right, and on windy days, could reach 20+ mph across the range.
Doing my intellectual exercise on rifle, I came to the conclusion of a slightly hot loaded .243, the favored California mid to long range small deer round, which could propel the 110 grain (not much heavier than your daughter's) boattailed round, out around 3,200 fps, is very friendly to shoot, on a 26" barrel bolt action of any manufacturer.
I"m just too scared to shoot .308, so I had to explore smaller calibers, but still able to punch through wind with a trajectory similar to match grade .308 hopefully out to 750 yards.
Wierd, because I've handloaded just over 15,000 .45 Auto rounds, and shot about that many more factory loads, without feeling a flinch in the slightest.
I hate .357 and .44, but can just handle .41, barely. .41 downloaded with only 10 grains of Blue Dot (slow burning granular) on a 6" barrel, is my max.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
Good stuff.....
I can't imagine how a .223 can be accurate at 600 yards. That tiny .22 sized projectile would wander from temperature changes alone, and by wind. My Ruger and AR's (with either 55 or 70 grain bullets, were terrible on gusty, windy days at 125 yards, off a solid sandbag on a table and a solid chair. I found my competition .45's were about the same accuracy, hitting a 6" sq. every time, and half going inside a 2" diameter bullseye. That's off a sandbag, table, and chair of course. Standing, I could hit the top of the bell, or the bottom, which was a foot tall and 6" wide 9 out of 10 shots. We had cross winds, left to right, and on windy days, could reach 20+ mph across the range.
Doing my intellectual exercise on rifle, I came to the conclusion of a slightly hot loaded .243, the favored California mid to long range small deer round, which could propel the 110 grain (not much heavier than your daughter's) boattailed round, out around 3,200 fps, is very friendly to shoot, on a 26" barrel bolt action of any manufacturer.
I"m just too scared to shoot .308, so I had to explore smaller calibers, but still able to punch through wind with a trajectory similar to match grade .308 hopefully out to 750 yards.
Wierd, because I've handloaded just over 15,000 .45 Auto rounds, and shot about that many more factory loads, without feeling a flinch in the slightest.
I hate .357 and .44, but can just handle .41, barely. .41 downloaded with only 10 grains of Blue Dot (slow burning granular) on a 6" barrel, is my max.

My daughter reads the wind pretty well and does well with the .223 when the wind is under 10 mph. Keep in mind that there are a few sighters allowed before shooting for record begins, so really only changes during the 20 shot string "for record" effect the score. It's not as hard as a first shot hit from a cold bore. She has some rifles shooting heavier bullets she goes to on windier days, but the .223 is a lot less expensive to shoot which is important in tournaments that are usually 60-120 shots for record. Some family members even shoot a slow twist .223 and a .222 with 55ish grain bullets. Those do ok out to 600 yards when the wind is less than 5 mph.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Progression, you gotta love it.
I guess I did my shooting back in the mid '70's, so technology was nearer it's infancy, and the .223 round was still only really 10 year's old as far as shooting long distance was concerned. Things have evolved a lot, it appears.
I liked shooting the AR, so I bought a Mini 14 that Bob Chow had installed a 24" match grade barrel on, I forget the company name, so I could shoot better and maybe try the 600 yard range in Sacramento Ca. that my brother shot at. Yes, it was close to twice as good as my AR, but I didn't have more than 1,000 rounds in rifle at the time, so my results were ...mixed, at best. I can admit my pistol results were on my best days, while my rifle results were based on my bad days.
About 1/3 rd of the shooter's preferred a lying down position over prone, but I guess it's personal preference there.
Yes, it's best to shoot everything you can get your hands on, even exotics that are rare in your area.
Oh, forgot. I traded my Remington 742 in 30.06 for a match grade Ruger Bull Barrel .22, which shot really well, but was ficky about ammunition. That one could match my best rifle results at 125 yards off a bench.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Nice, she's on her path to pistol competition, but would probably do well if initial target acquisition was a bit quicker.
I'm not up on the popular .22 pistols being used nowadaze, as only Ruger's and Woodlands were used back in the late '70's.
Is the balanced turret stance the favored now? Weaver was favorite for back then, strong hand using 60%, while off hand for support.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
Nice, she's on her path to pistol competition, but would probably do well if initial target acquisition was a bit quicker.
I'm not up on the popular .22 pistols being used nowadaze, as only Ruger's and Woodlands were used back in the late '70's.
Is the balanced turret stance the favored now? Weaver was favorite for back then, strong hand using 60%, while off hand for support.

She's more interested in self-defense with the pistol than competition, though both her uncle and I have encouraged her. Teens will always pick their favorite sports. She loves to shoot both pistol and rifle, but only competes in rifle. It may be because her younger brother is a better pistol shot.

Her uncle and I both favor the Weaver stance, but we recognize people will gravitate to what is most comfortable for them and we prefer not to tinker with what's working. Given the defensive interests of this shooter, the priorities seem to be speed and achieving the same level of accuracy with a suitable defensive caliber. She's in love with her uncle's Kimber (45 ACP) and I expect she'll get her own on her 21st birthday.

One great thing about the NRA Marksmanship qualifications is that after one reaches expert (or distinguished expert) in pistol, they have Defensive Pistol 1 and Defensive Pistol 2 qualifications that are done with a suitable defensive caliber and begin decreasing the time requirement, drawing from a holster, etc.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
COOL!
I've shot more .45 ACP than everything else combined, by far my favorite to shoot, because I can actually SEE the bullet fly thru the air when shooting at 125 yards. Of course, that was when I was in my late '20's. Now, eyesight fading, I can't see a basketball fly throughout the length of a court.
My brother has two of my National Match Gold Cups.
I mostly shot custom built competition .45's, set for full loads (for iron target shoots), by Bob Chow and some from Beuhlardt in LA (spelling is not my strength, and it was 40 year's ago), but owned and shot several Commander's and two Lightweight Commander's, my choice for serious shooting. 4.6 grains of Bulleye coupled with Hornaday flat tip 200 grain bullets, for a fast but light recoil but still didn't go thru car doors compared to 9mm's. Never liked the push from a full load and 220 grain bullets, and 185 gr. weren't as accurate.
I shoot right handed, but have shot my .45's over 1,000 rounds lefty, just for "in case". Lefty single hand is better for me than rightie single hand.
I hate to a admit, but after no shooting for 30 year's, I've settled for a CZ in 9mm, for it's double action first shot and it's 15 round mag's loaded with 12. Good mag's are now impossible to buy for that gun, so I own 10 of them.

#### Bhagi Katbamna

##### Legend
Very nice. Good luck to her.

#### stringertom

##### Bionic Poster
Does hitting fuzzy yellow sphere with a racquet encourage hitting people with a racquet later in life? Then why would punching holes in paper with a projectile launcher?

Both develop the skill if the need arises.
Sureshs hasn't mastered swinging a racquet hard enough to hurt another person. The only thing left hurting are my sides from watching his gifs and YouTube clips!

#### Sentinel

##### Bionic Poster
Sureshs hasn't mastered swinging a racquet hard enough to hurt another person. The only thing left hurting are my sides from watching his gifs and YouTube clips!
Then you haven't read his nonsensical/irrelevant posts that crack me up ... like the one in this thread.

#### Rusty Shackleford

##### G.O.A.T.
Why would you want to shoot youths and home school families when you can just go to the shooting range and shoot at inanimate targets? People are so violent nowadays. Obviously, that Kalamazoo Uber driver didn't get the memo.

#### Vcore89

##### Talk Tennis Guru
Why would you want to shoot youths and home school families when you can just go to the shooting range and shoot at inanimate targets? People are so violent nowadays. Obviously, that Kalamazoo Uber driver didn't get the memo.

Premium über taxis depended on good ratings to get repeat customers. However, that Kalamazoo driver was driven by his apps [which took over his mind and body] instead of getting the memo.

##### Legend
nice shooting by your daughter there. the NRA political ads are so BS. still got the firearms despite what the NRA advertises. fun shooting the "cheaper" calibers as well as the "heavy" ones from time to time.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Premium über taxis depended on good ratings to get repeat customers. However, that Kalamazoo driver was driven by his apps [which took over his mind and body] instead of getting the memo.

I drove night taxi in San Francisco from 1977 thru 1982, mostly 5 nights a week, but latter year's, 4 a week. That means, starting at 7, finishing mostly around 3AM.
Runners, maybe 20 total, of which I dragged 15 to the hospital or police station, whichever was closer. The rest got away.
Got shot twice from the back of my cab, the passengers deciding to shoot before informing me they wanted my money.
Got stabbed two other times, once in the neck, once a glancing forearm cut when I blocked his attempt.
Once, my passenger's accomplice shot into my side window, me driving, while pulling up next to me in HIS car, as my passenger tried to wrestle away the ignition key of my cab. That made the headlines, as I emptied my Model 66 and full speed reloader, and he fired at least 20 times with what sounded like multiple weapons.
Sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
The NRA is the USTA of shooting. Sure, there is a 2nd Amendment side to what they do, but they are also the most extensive training and match organizing group anywhere when it comes to the shooting sports.

D

#### Deleted member 307496

##### Guest
I don't think target shooting encourages violence.

#### WildVolley

##### Legend
Is the balanced turret stance the favored now? Weaver was favorite for back then, strong hand using 60%, while off hand for support.

It seems that all the professional pistol shooters use the isoceles stance these days. It is faster and more stable than the Weaver stance, so the pistol will return to target with less thought and adjustment compared to using other stances. Miculek has some good videos online explaining why it is preferred and showing his technique.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Yeah, my shooting days were 1977 thru 1981, so I"m sure things have changed just a bit since then.
I always favored shooting with one hand, because who knows what the other hand is doing in a stress situation. Like cab driving, I kept on hand on the steering wheel.
Lefty practice serves really well in the most hairy situations, as the right hand might be needed to steer AND fend off a stabbing knife or a grab at your ignition key. Never a good idea to give up the ignition key.
Gee, I never had a lefty shooter, or a lefty knife stabber, behind me trying to do his thing.....always righties.

##### Legend
Yeah, my shooting days were 1977 thru 1981, so I"m sure things have changed just a bit since then.
I always favored shooting with one hand, because who knows what the other hand is doing in a stress situation. Like cab driving, I kept on hand on the steering wheel.
Lefty practice serves really well in the most hairy situations, as the right hand might be needed to steer AND fend off a stabbing knife or a grab at your ignition key. Never a good idea to give up the ignition key.
Gee, I never had a lefty shooter, or a lefty knife stabber, behind me trying to do his thing.....always righties.
So the point is, only pick up lefties, for safety.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
It seems that all the professional pistol shooters use the isoceles stance these days. It is faster and more stable than the Weaver stance, so the pistol will return to target with less thought and adjustment compared to using other stances. Miculek has some good videos online explaining why it is preferred and showing his technique.

My view is that even well trained defensive shooters shouldn't worry too much about what the pros are doing.

My brother is a high end trainer and often talks about getting splits down from 0.20 seconds to the 0.14 sec range.

My goal is more to get people shooting, hitting the target, and practicing 1000 rounds a year in a meaningful way.

And to remind people that they win every gun fight they avoid.

#### dlk

##### Hall of Fame
I'm for it. The Biathlon is one of my favorite Winter Games' sports.

D

#### Deleted member 23235

##### Guest
nice shooting.

coincidentally just came back from pistol shooting training in TX. obstacle course, from draw, concealment, etc,... fun stuff, I'm slowest in the group,...then again NY'ers don't have many places to practice

seems like something I can see doing with my kids

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
I've always been an advocate for the quickest target acquisition and getting the first shot off, followed by a AIMED second shot.
First shot to start the action, startle the opponent, maybe blind him a bit, and the aimed second shot is the kill shot.
Did that for 2 years of IPSC, a lot of guys saying my technique was off, but I didn't do IPSC to compete in that contrite anal sport, I did it for real world shooting practice, when the chips are down, when things count, in the real world. Got invited to Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Ranch in 1979. He first tried to change me, but after much discussion on WHY I shoot, which is NOT for scoring points, even he decided to leave me alone on my philosophy, and he was GOD for Combat Pistol back in those days. He did try to force me to change for competition shoots, to score higher points in a quicker time. That is not real world shooting.

#### Rusty Shackleford

##### G.O.A.T.
I've always been an advocate for the quickest target acquisition and getting the first shot off, followed by a AIMED second shot.
First shot to start the action, startle the opponent, maybe blind him a bit, and the aimed second shot is the kill shot.
Did that for 2 years of IPSC, a lot of guys saying my technique was off, but I didn't do IPSC to compete in that contrite anal sport, I did it for real world shooting practice, when the chips are down, when things count, in the real world. Got invited to Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Ranch in 1979. He first tried to change me, but after much discussion on WHY I shoot, which is NOT for scoring points, even he decided to leave me alone on my philosophy, and he was GOD for Combat Pistol back in those days. He did try to force me to change for competition shoots, to score higher points in a quicker time. That is not real world shooting.
How many shots does it take to take a small shark? Just wondering if you know given your vast experience.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
How many shots does it take to take a small shark? Just wondering if you know given your vast experience.
.22, shot in the brain, ONE shot.

#### Rusty Shackleford

##### G.O.A.T.
.22, shot in the brain, ONE shot.
Isn't that a hard shot to make though? I was under the impression that sharks have diminutive brains compared to their overall size. Like putting a bullet through a dime with a bull running towards you.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
You mean in the water?
Even a bang stick at 12 gauge needs contact to be effective. Newest is the C02 injector that violently injects C02 like a gunshot, but triple the amount of a gunshot in the same time. The shock wave kills better than any cartridge short of a 40mm anti aircraft round.

#### Rusty Shackleford

##### G.O.A.T.
You mean in the water?
Even a bang stick at 12 gauge needs contact to be effective. Newest is the C02 injector that violently injects C02 like a gunshot, but triple the amount of a gunshot in the same time. The shock wave kills better than any cartridge short of a 40mm anti aircraft round.
Oh, yeah. I completely agree with you. It was more of a hypothetical question. Like the last scene in Jaws, where the shark is out of the water and heading towards you. I mean, it would be hard to hit the brain with a .22 round, wouldn't it?

God, I so wish Fedace was here to solve these burning questions.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Oh, yeah. I completely agree with you. It was more of a hypothetical question. Like the last scene in Jaws, where the shark is out of the water and heading towards you. I mean, it would be hard to hit the brain with a .22 round, wouldn't it?

God, I so wish Fedace was here to solve these burning questions.

Good one! A 50 foot long shark with the headsize of a 70' long shark would indeed be a dilema. Nothing beats a shrapnel grenade tossed into it's mouth, with the pin pulled.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
I've always been an advocate for the quickest target acquisition and getting the first shot off, followed by a AIMED second shot.
First shot to start the action, startle the opponent, maybe blind him a bit, and the aimed second shot is the kill shot.
Did that for 2 years of IPSC, a lot of guys saying my technique was off, but I didn't do IPSC to compete in that contrite anal sport, I did it for real world shooting practice, when the chips are down, when things count, in the real world. Got invited to Jeff Cooper's Gunsite Ranch in 1979. He first tried to change me, but after much discussion on WHY I shoot, which is NOT for scoring points, even he decided to leave me alone on my philosophy, and he was GOD for Combat Pistol back in those days. He did try to force me to change for competition shoots, to score higher points in a quicker time. That is not real world shooting.

I've always been a fight how you train and train how you plan to fight kinda guy.

Ingrained gamesmanship techniques can bite you at inconvenient times.

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Hence, post 17.
When I was driving a cab up Hayes St. in SF, the guy in the back behind me opened his briefcase, reached for something long and silver, and I immediately lefty drew my LightweightCommander, hit the ambi safety, and started to accelerate, reach over, and duck at the same time, by which time he fired off FIVE .38 rounds into my windshield and headliner. I froze then, knowing I had a .45 in his face, and I was looking backwards while the cab was accelerating to over 50 mph thru the city streets Buchanan heading for busy Filmore. The shock on his face told me he wasn't going to keep shooting, and he tossed the .38 out the window. I turned around, stomped on the brakes, and yelled to him... "get out NOW", while I was going around 35 mph downhill. He got out right quick, and I drove to the Veteran's Cab lot about 2 miles away to explain my adventure. Needless to say, I got needled to no end, but it was almost worth it seeing his shocked face as I came up after his shots into my cab.
That little lesson taught me to shoot if I bother to draw.

##### Legend
about a \$1 per round for the 80gr SMK vs \$.20 for the 62gr Wolf. that's not a "cheap" round. couldn't afford a regular diet of those.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
about a \$1 per round for the 80gr SMK vs \$.20 for the 62gr Wolf. that's not a "cheap" round. couldn't afford a regular diet of those.

Most long range match shooters buy their own components and reload, which is much cheaper than buying factory loaded ammo. The bullets themselves (80 SMK) cost \$0.20-0.25 per bullet, and the other components add \$0.10-\$0.15 per round for a per shot cost of \$0.30-\$0.40 per round. A 60 round match usually has an entry fee of \$20-\$25, and typical driving distances are 50-200 miles. When driving more than 70 miles or so, we usually include an overnight hotel stay, so ammo is a small part of the expenses for regular participation in matches.

For comparison, reloading costs for .308 Win (precision long range ammo) is \$0.60-\$0.80 per round and for .300 Win Mag is over \$1.00 per round. My daughter managed to get a sponsorship to help cover costs, and (of course) her parents enthusiastically help her out with many expenses not covered by the sponsorship. This academic year, I think we'll end up paying far less out of pocket for my daughter's shooting expenses than we will for my son's tennis expenses. Without the sponsorship, it would probably be about even.

##### Legend
Most long range match shooters buy their own components and reload, which is much cheaper than buying factory loaded ammo. The bullets themselves (80 SMK) cost \$0.20-0.25 per bullet, and the other components add \$0.10-\$0.15 per round for a per shot cost of \$0.30-\$0.40 per round. A 60 round match usually has an entry fee of \$20-\$25, and typical driving distances are 50-200 miles. When driving more than 70 miles or so, we usually include an overnight hotel stay, so ammo is a small part of the expenses for regular participation in matches.

For comparison, reloading costs for .308 Win (precision long range ammo) is \$0.60-\$0.80 per round and for .300 Win Mag is over \$1.00 per round. My daughter managed to get a sponsorship to help cover costs, and (of course) her parents enthusiastically help her out with many expenses not covered by the sponsorship. This academic year, I think we'll end up paying far less out of pocket for my daughter's shooting expenses than we will for my son's tennis expenses. Without the sponsorship, it would probably be about even.

easier to justify the tennis expenses especially if your son strives to play in college (partial or full ride). not sure how many colleges have "shooting" teams/competitions amongst other colleges. still a fun hobby.

btw - "basic" firearms instruction, weapons and ammo were "free" (and required) when I served USMC. something to keep in mind if your daughter is up to the other aspects.

#### MathGeek

##### Hall of Fame
easier to justify the tennis expenses especially if your son strives to play in college (partial or full ride). not sure how many colleges have "shooting" teams/competitions amongst other colleges. still a fun hobby.

My daughter has already earned more from shooting than my son is ever likely to in tennis. Placing first and second in various state and national competitions tends to open doors. There are actually a fair number of schools with shooting teams; the problem is that's not the kind of shooting my daughter likes. I expect she may form an F-Class shooting team wherever she goes. But except for a couple of schools, it is much easier for an attractive young lady to get funding through sponsorships than shooting scholarships, except for the NRA scholarship.

Academic scholarships are actually much easier to get than athletic scholarships, especially given the strengths and inclinations of my clan. But I think this is true generally in the south. There are many more students on academic scholarships at the big state universities in the south than on athletic scholarships. In most sports, competing for athletic scholarships requires what 400-1000 hours per year of practice during high school. Excelling at academics requires maybe 300 hours per year over and above a good honest effort during regularly scheduled classes. My children are home schooled, average less than 7 hours per day on academics, and all have a great shot at academic scholarships.

My son likes tennis a lot, and averages 4-6 hours per week on practice. He's have to triple that to have a realistic shot at a college scholarship based on tennis.

btw - "basic" firearms instruction, weapons and ammo were "free" (and required) when I served USMC. something to keep in mind if your daughter is up to the other aspects.

I'm a big fan of the military, and my wife and I have served on the faculty of West Point and USAFA. However, my daughter is not keen on serving at the whim of any of the commanders in chief likely to be in office over the next few years.

As it happens, my brother is an NRA training counselor and runs a program for veterans to use their GI Bill benefits to become certified NRA instructors. Marines tend to arrive at his program with slightly better firearms training than other branches, but a stint in the Marines is no guarantee of good firearms training opportunities. Most Marines fire far less than the 1000 rounds per year that most NRA trainers recommend for maintaining and building skills even for amateurs.

##### Legend
didn't have much pistol training (being enlisted vs officer) in the USMC but didn't take but a couple boxes of 50 or so to adjust to a cheap sub compact 9mm. not a match shooter but able to hit the target out 100 yards. probably good enough for the military but not for competition.

I hear a good bit of those who "support" the military but fail to "man up".

#### LeeD

##### Bionic Poster
Loading is fun and relaxing, just like stringing rackets, and you can do experiments in type of powder, amount, bullet shape, and bullet weight. Experimenting in crimp and different primer's makes it a technical as well as scientific exercise with the results showing the next time you go out on the range.
Prolly did just over 15,000 .45ACP rounds, 2,000 9mm, 3,000 .223 but only with 55 grain standards, 400+ .44 Mag, 100 .44 Special, 400+ .41 Mag., easy 2,000 .357, 3,000+ .38 wadcutter 2.6 grain paper puncher's, and hundreds of 30.06, .308, .243, and .300 Winchester Magnum. Had at least a dozen more dies for other rounds.
Two RockChucker's side by side with station turrets.
Donated it all to a SFPD officer living at the house.