Short ball choice: Angle shot or approach shot?

[athiker]

Scenario: You are playing a guy who has nice passing shots, nice touch on the ball and a solid net game. Groundstrokes and speed are okay. You have a good speed and a good rally ball off both wings and strong net game but your angle shots need some work. You play a tight first set but loose the 2nd as your opponent seems to take your rally ball and slice it down rather short to mid court to draw you in. You hit your standard approach shot (usually slice but sometimes topspin if it sits up) that he calmly strokes by you on one side or the other with excellent touch and directional control. You are me obviously and this was a tight match, tiebreaker 1st set, but as my opponent warmed up he started to roll after the first few games of the 2nd set.

Thinking about the match I think I should've gone for more angle shots off his short balls than simply hit approach shots. Obviously more higher quality approach shots is a goal as well.

I did try some drop shots, and they worked unless I popped them up too much then it was point over for him. My approach shots worked some of the time too, but anything less than excellent was grooved by me. I also tried to just rally the ball back and move back again, but I never really committed to hitting a sharp angle to pull him wide. Partly b/c that's a work in progress shot for me and other than fairly aggressive net play, I typically play a higher margin for error brand of tennis. Its not like these short balls were sitting up above net level either...they stayed pretty low. I did hit a few angled winners, mainly by accident, and noticed they didn't need a lot of pace, just location. These usually came if I was striking the ball near one of my sidelines, most of the short balls I got were more in the middle of the court, so less angle opportunity for me.

So what factors do you use to decide to hit an approach shot off that short ball vs. going for a sharp angle off the side of the court off that "opportunity" ball for a winner or just to open up the court? And where do you recover to off the angle shot? Thanks.

Edit: Any short ball I gave him started a zig zag race back and forth across the court with me chasing down his angled shots till he eventually placed one nicely behind me ending the point.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I have no idea what the answer is, but I sure have the same problem you do.

I have decided that I am going for the angled winner. If I don't think I can make it, I am going for a drop shot.

The reason is that simply hitting a deep approach doesn't seem to work for me. My opponents reach it, and then they either lob me or more frequently they pass me. I guess I am more comfortable smacking the ball hard with topspin for an angle than trying to place it in the deep corner.

 

[thebuffman]

from my experience, the short ball wide angle is the preferred shot over the approach shot. check out my latest post here. i highly recommend practicing this shot until you can add it to your rep. against an opponent as you describe, your typical approach shot will hang you out to dry. the approach shot against this type of level should only be performed when you have him at a disadvantage.

a great combo is to hit hard to him and from what i read he doesn't seem to be able to hit hard returns. so just hit hard to him until you get the short ball. now is the option to hit the approach shot or go for a wide angled shot. if the approach will not significantly put him at a disadvantage by forcing him out of control then you have to go wide angle to pull him off the court. now you have him because you can close the court and approach off of his return.

 

[larry10s]

first some general comments
after the first couple of times when you saw your opponent start to slice you should be moving foward to get to the ball at the highest point possible
trying to play a quality shot that you are just barely geting to and digging out
is very tough(cindy hitting topspin off a ball that low is tough to get it up and over and in)
second, your opponent that was passing you was it more on the backhand side or forhand side?? did you try to approach down the middle?
third did you always try to approach by going DEEP??
i find a slice approach SHORT that hits around the service line often is more trouble for the passer since the ball is dying by the time it gets to them and THEY have to dig it out.
also this shot does not require as much touch as the drop shot

 

[larry10s]

no question you need the angle shot in your repertoire.
its easier if you are not in the middle of the court
when you can do both your opponent cant start moving to your down the line spot like he can when he knows you take every short ball down the line

 

[larry10s]

Its not like these short balls were sitting up above net level either...they stayed pretty low. I did hit a few angled winners, mainly by accident, and noticed they didn't need a lot of pace, just location. These usually came if I was striking the ball near one of my sidelines, most of the short balls I got were more in the middle of the court, so less angle opportunity for me.

So what factors do you use to decide to hit an approach shot off that short ball vs. going for a sharp angle off the side of the court off that "opportunity" ball for a winner or just to open up the court? And where do you recover to off the angle shot? Thanks.

Edit: Any short ball I gave him started a zig zag race back and forth across the court with me chasing down his angled shots till he eventually placed one nicely behind me ending the point.

if you can develop a super dipper i mean take a ball inside the service line and with full racquet speed but brushing to get the ball to go up over the net and land in the service box on the other side thats a great shot to have.

soft sliced angle from the middle also works as you noticed on your mishits(when bad shot in your mind is great shot in results) now you have to learn to do that on command
again everyone wants to go into the corners
down the middle can work

 

[LeeD]

I disagree with the full swinging short angle approach or winner attempts. First and foremost, they can read your big backswiing, second, they are used to hitting your topspin balls so they are grooved into it.
You need your 70% DTL sliced approach to land within 3' of his baseline, and if closer, you are hitting a PRO level approach, and he only beats you if he's 5.5 or better. Of course, you cover the DTL pass, but be ready to move over to cut off his CC, so you only think of moving in ONE direction, not either or both, making your movement that much quicker.
A short CC angle gives him huge angle to choose to pass you, but worst for you, you give him the longest possible court to LOB over your head without going long. All the worst worlds in ONE shot.
Notice I said "70%" of your approaches are DTL. The other's are for causing doubt in his mind so he won't only cover his sideline. So you need a short CC wide angle, but more importantly, you need the short DTL drop, which he CANNOT read with your sliced stroke.
If he cannot read your shot, he can't react nearly as quickly, so you get a full step on him.
VERY few players can hit full on topspin approaches both DTL and CC.

 

[athiker]

Thanks for the comments so far, I'll respond in a bit. Oddly, on Tennis Channel just now was Paul Annacone on Tennis Academy. He basically said in today's game the chip and charge is dead, get over it, that attacking tennis is the order of the day if you want to get to the net. No slice approach followed by 3 or 4 volley exchanges, but a smacked approach shot off an attackable ball followed by 1 volley put-a-way chance, maybe 2.

While I don't think that is necessarily true at the 3.5/4.0 level where I hang out, I think it is relevant to some matches at my level at least. I have tried to make an effort to hit more topspin approach shots vs slice, but habits are hard to break.

BTW, the guy I played is a USTA 4.0 and I'm a USTA 3.5 but I play with 4.0 players every week with reasonable success and my goal is to get bumped up. This is a non-USTA self-rate 3.5 ladder and I'm now 8-1. Against most 3.5 players I salivate over the short ball, slice, topspin, low or high, and getting to the net but occasionally you hit the calm cool experienced player that has seen it all before and my typical game plan isn't good enough.

 

[MNPlayer]

The deep approach shot DTL should be the first choice in this situation because it is higher percentage. You need to learn to observe your opponent so you can expect a lob or pass attempt. If he is really stretched wide, expect a lob and back up a little so you can cover it. Otherwise cover the line, and be balanced when he hits it, so you can hit a good volley! Keep in mind an approach shot is not supposed to be a winner although it often will be if you hit it well.

I generally only try for angle shots or drops if I am in a very aggressive position already (a very short ball) and it's an easy shot to make. This is because angles and drops are aggressive, risky shots. If you screw up a little, you will probably lose the point.

I think if you have problems with the approach shot working for you, you need to hit better approaches, not give up entirely.

 

[MNPlayer]

Thanks for the comments so far, I'll respond in a bit. Oddly, on Tennis Channel just now was Paul Annacone on Tennis Academy. He basically said in today's game the chip and charge is dead, get over it, that attacking tennis is the order of the day if you want to get to the net. No slice approach followed by 3 or 4 volley exchanges, but a smacked approach shot off an attackable ball followed by 1 volley put-a-way chance, maybe 2.

While I don't think that is necessarily true at the 3.5/4.0 level where I hang out, I think it is relevant to some matches at my level at least. I have tried to make an effort to hit more topspin approach shots vs slice, but habits are hard to break.

BTW, the guy I played is a USTA 4.0 and I'm a USTA 3.5 but I play with 4.0 players every week with reasonable success and my goal is to get bumped up. This is a non-USTA self-rate 3.5 ladder and I'm now 8-1. Against most 3.5 players I salivate over the short ball, slice, topspin, low or high, and getting to the net but occasionally you hit the calm cool experienced player that has seen it all before and my typical game plan isn't good enough.

I have the same debate with myself over slice vs topspin approaches, off the backhand side anyway. Keeping the ball deep and placing it well is probably more important though. I do hit my forehand approach much flatter than the rally ball but I'm not always sure this is a good idea. Some guys hate high bouncers to their backhand side...

 

[athiker]

from my experience, the short ball wide angle is the preferred shot over the approach shot. check out my latest post here. i highly recommend practicing this shot until you can add it to your rep. against an opponent as you describe, your typical approach shot will hang you out to dry. the approach shot against this type of level should only be performed when you have him at a disadvantage.
I have spent some time practicing and was very interested in that thread. Practicing it and really incorporating it in a tight match is the leap I have to make! I now have the evidence and incentive to go for it.

a great combo is to hit hard to him and from what i read he doesn't seem to be able to hit hard returns. so just hit hard to him until you get the short ball. now is the option to hit the approach shot or go for a wide angled shot. if the approach will not significantly put him at a disadvantage by forcing him out of control then you have to go wide angle to pull him off the court. now you have him because you can close the court and approach off of his return.
I think this is key to answering my basic question and jives with what Annacone said. He commented about "opponent's level of balance and where they are on the court" for deciding whether to hit an approach shot and go to the net.

first some general comments
after the first couple of times when you saw your opponent start to slice you should be moving foward to get to the ball at the highest point possible
trying to play a quality shot that you are just barely geting to and digging out
is very tough(cindy hitting topspin off a ball that low is tough to get it up and over and in)
Believe it or not I did tell myself this but only to play a better approach shot. Now I realize I have to do this with a different goal in mind.
second, your opponent that was passing you was it more on the backhand side or forhand side?? did you try to approach down the middle?
I did hit a few approach shots up the middle and probably should've tried more to jam him up and take a little time from him. These tended to produce lob attempts as he rushed to get his feet out of the way.

I usually try to approach against their backhand but this match was a bit different. Often the ball that he brought me in on was a chopped down backhand slice kind of cross-court to mid court so I would bh slice approach to his forehand. He was very good at seeming to hold to the last moment and not tipping off whether he was going cross-court or DTL with his pass. He could pass me on the other wing too though, kind of a flat push shot with great directional control.

They weren't all winners of course but often if I got to them I was really reaching for the ball and he would hit finish the point off my weak reply or whenever he was done running me back and forth. And I did have some success but like I said I just didn't have much room for error so realized i need to change/improve something to beat him. We are close...I just need to tip the scales in my favor next time!
third did you always try to approach by going DEEP??
i find a slice approach SHORT that hits around the service line often is more trouble for the passer since the ball is dying by the time it gets to them and THEY have to dig it out.
also this shot does not require as much touch as the drop shot
I'm not sure. I did try to force him in late in the match and approach behind my short ball...kind of the drop shot thing w/ mixed success. I'm not sure I tried to slice him off the court. Part of my concern w/ angled balls is what LeeD mentions below. If the angled shot is too slow and they get there with plenty of time then they have a lot of open court to work with. I'm giving them angle. I struggle with this b/c I know I did hit some kind of slow angled winners...but the margin for error was quite slim on those and they had a healthy dose of luck. I guess it all comes down to hitting the appropriate shot, angle/approach and pace required for where my opponent is positioned. I have had some success w/ short angled slices against weak/short 3.5 2nd serves in the past.

no question you need the angle shot in your repertoire.
its easier if you are not in the middle of the court
when you can do both your opponent cant start moving to your down the line spot like he can when he knows you take every short ball down the line
Excellent point, I actually hit a few DTL approach shot winners on him early in the match; he obviously started to anticipate this later.

I disagree with the full swinging short angle approach or winner attempts. First and foremost, they can read your big backswiing, second, they are used to hitting your topspin balls so they are grooved into it.
You need your 70% DTL sliced approach to land within 3' of his baseline, and if closer, you are hitting a PRO level approach, and he only beats you if he's 5.5 or better. Of course, you cover the DTL pass, but be ready to move over to cut off his CC, so you only think of moving in ONE direction, not either or both, making your movement that much quicker.
A short CC angle gives him huge angle to choose to pass you, but worst for you, you give him the longest possible court to LOB over your head without going long. All the worst worlds in ONE shot.
This concerns me too.
Notice I said "70%" of your approaches are DTL. The other's are for causing doubt in his mind so he won't only cover his sideline. So you need a short CC wide angle, but more importantly, you need the short DTL drop, which he CANNOT read with your sliced stroke.
If he cannot read your shot, he can't react nearly as quickly, so you get a full step on him.
VERY few players can hit full on topspin approaches both DTL and CC.

Thanks again.

 

[athiker]

The deep approach shot DTL should be the first choice in this situation because it is higher percentage. You need to learn to observe your opponent so you can expect a lob or pass attempt. If he is really stretched wide, expect a lob and back up a little so you can cover it. Otherwise cover the line, and be balanced when he hits it, so you can hit a good volley! Keep in mind an approach shot is not supposed to be a winner although it often will be if you hit it well.

I generally only try for angle shots or drops if I am in a very aggressive position already (a very short ball) and it's an easy shot to make. This is because angles and drops are aggressive, risky shots. If you screw up a little, you will probably lose the point.

I think if you have problems with the approach shot working for you, you need to hit better approaches, not give up entirely.

I do try to adjust the depth of my court position to lob vs passing attempt but in this case I probably respected his lob too much considering his pass/lob success ratio and could've closed tighter more often. Good point about anticipation and adjusting not just based on previous point results but on watching your opponent closer in the moment.

I do need to hit better approaches if I want success against better players. Okay approach shots work against quite a few at my level so its easy to get sloppy and satisfied. Later in the match I tried to bail if I knew my approach was not that good, but often by then its simply too late. I need a higher % of quality approach shots be they slice or topspin.

 

[athiker]

Watching a replay of the Llodra/Davydenko match where Llodra took over the match partway through the first set. For those that don't know LLodra often S&Vs and approaches the net during many points. First time I've personally seen him play that I recall.

I'm struck by often he serves wide and approaches...serving down the middle seems to be his change up. My opponent always seemed to leave the middle more open and I found myself serving there a lot...plus I'm used to serving there in doubles. I probably should've hit wide more often on serve as well as during play regardless of where he was standing. I know Will at FYB advocates for the wide serve in most situations. Llodra is simply a master of the short angle though...both with serves and volleys.

Llodra serves wide, often volleying the reply straight back behind the recovering Davydenko and then volleys the 2nd reply to open court for a winner. He does hit approaches DTL as well though and I even saw him chip and charge.

He will also serve wide, not approach and then hit the ROS DTL with topspin and approach. If Davydenko can reach it he is certainly hitting on the run and sometimes the approach shot is simply a clean winner. Of course this requires a good enough serve to get a return that can be handled well enough to change direction and accurately go DTL.

One more pattern related to my original post, Llodra receives middle ball with not great depth, hits slice bh deep to Davy's fh deuce corner, Davy replies sharp and short cross-court and follows in anticipating the touch drop half-volley by Llodra, Davy makes it in time but due to closeness to net hits a cross-court bh and of course Llodra anticipating this is there to volley the ball away to open court...winner.

So keys on this middle ball. Deep approach shot right in the corner, deft touch on drop shot behind opponent's direction of travel, great anticipation of only next shot opponent has open to make. So should only take me a decade of practicing 4 - 6 hours a day to get this down.

Final comment, Llodra hits a lot of nice half-volleys with his style of play. I think someone posted that on here re: having a good S&V game but I've read too much lately to remember who.

 

[snvplayer]

I think it would depend on what kind of shot you get. In order to hit a good angle shot, you need an angle to work with. If the ball is sort of in the mid court area, it's pretty difficult to create a good angle, especially if it's low.

To me, it sounds like he found a really effective shot pattern against you.

One option might be to go straight up the middle to take away his angle, but make your you hit deep and hard.. Or, slice it back short to his forehand or backhand.

 

[larry10s]

Watching a replay of the Llodra/Davydenko match where Llodra took over the match partway through the first set. For those that don't know LLodra often S&Vs and approaches the net during many points. First time I've personally seen him play that I recall.

I'm struck by often he serves wide and approaches...serving down the middle seems to be his change up. My opponent always seemed to leave the middle more open and I found myself serving there a lot...plus I'm used to serving there in doubles. I probably should've hit wide more often on serve as well as during play regardless of where he was standing. I know Will at FYB advocates for the wide serve in most situations. Llodra is simply a master of the short angle though...both with serves and volleys.

Llodra serves wide, often volleying the reply straight back behind the recovering Davydenko and then volleys the 2nd reply to open court for a winner. He does hit approaches DTL as well though and I even saw him chip and charge.

He will also serve wide, not approach and then hit the ROS DTL with topspin and approach. If Davydenko can reach it he is certainly hitting on the run and sometimes the approach shot is simply a clean winner. Of course this requires a good enough serve to get a return that can be handled well enough to change direction and accurately go DTL.

One more pattern related to my original post, Llodra receives middle ball with not great depth, hits slice bh deep to Davy's fh deuce corner, Davy replies sharp and short cross-court and follows in anticipating the touch drop half-volley by Llodra, Davy makes it in time but due to closeness to net hits a cross-court bh and of course Llodra anticipating this is there to volley the ball away to open court...winner.

So keys on this middle ball. Deep approach shot right in the corner, deft touch on drop shot behind opponent's direction of travel, great anticipation of only next shot opponent has open to make. So should only take me a decade of practicing 4 - 6 hours a day to get this down.

Final comment, Llodra hits a lot of nice half-volleys with his style of play. I think someone posted that on here re: having a good S&V game but I've read too much lately to remember who.

dont take one match too literal. davydenko is quick so volleying behind him to try and wrong foot him is a good idea. against a slower opoonent you should go to the open court.
llodra may have felt the forehand side was the weaker passing side for davy
the middle ball may have been more on llodras ad side so he chose to volley in front of him(dtl sorta) choosing an inside out volley since his recovery position is closer than if he volleyed a more natural cross court back hand volley into the backhand corner
he can hit both yet he chose the inside out volley
if you taped that match replay the point and study it closely
when you serve and volley if the first volley has you in trouble usually you volley to the corner in front of you
if you can handle it easily you voley to the open court

 

[larry10s]

in singles if you can really serve wide so the contact point of the returner is outside the doubles alley you have alot of options for your next shot
the up the t serve when hit well stretches the returner so you get a weaker shorter ball which puts the returner in immediate trouble since he has to regain balance and react to your volley placement
if you dont stretch him out then he is closer to both corners not so good for you the vollier

 

[athiker]

I think it would depend on what kind of shot you get. In order to hit a good angle shot, you need an angle to work with. If the ball is sort of in the mid court area, it's pretty difficult to create a good angle, especially if it's low.

To me, it sounds like he found a really effective shot pattern against you.

One option might be to go straight up the middle to take away his angle, but make your you hit deep and hard.. Or, slice it back short to his forehand or backhand.

Yes he did find a successful pattern. I felt somewhat in control in the first set, but faltered late and lost a set tiebreaker. Jumped up 2-0 in the 2nd set before dropping 6 games in a row! I felt like I tried a variety of things to stem the tide but fell just short in every game.

I think the deep straight up the middle play that you and larry mentioned should have been employed more. He took away my angle by middle mid-court and I would give him angle by going to one side or the other.

Overall I need to make better, harder, lower, deeper approach shots. If I decided not to approach I still need to hit better deeper shots to give myself time to get in good position instead of being caught back peddling....maybe even put loop in the ball to the corner. That's if I don't go for a short angle slice.

in singles if you can really serve wide so the contact point of the returner is outside the doubles alley you have alot of options for your next shot
the up the t serve when hit well stretches the returner so you get a weaker shorter ball which puts the returner in immediate trouble since he has to regain balance and react to your volley placement
if you dont stretch him out then he is closer to both corners not so good for you the vollier

I think that is a key...I've got to stretch the guy out or jam him up and not let him hit in comfort.

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I have a better idea of some things to try and will be able to better adjust to his strategy and recognize my mistakes mid-match next time. He may still beat me, its not like he's a one-trick pony, but at least that one aspect that bugged me might be handled better.