Shot Selection: Is The Pro Correct?

[Cindysphinx]

I was doing a clinic yesterday, and the pro wanted us to work on hitting and defending lobs off of the service return.

The drill was that the receiver was to hit a lob over the net player and follow it to net. The server was supposed to run over and fetch the lob.

The issue is what shot should the server hit. The pro said the preferred shot would be a low drive down the alley. She allowed that if the opponents were draped on the net, then you could lob.

We set up to start doing this drill, and I was receiving in the deuce court. I lob my return DTL and follow it to net. The server, attempting to follow the pro's guidance, tried to hit running BH drives down the alley. In other words, she sent the ball directly to my waiting racket for an easy crosscourt volley winner.

Boy, I thought. That cannot possibly be the best shot selection advice, especially if the opponents are playing staggered doubles. In staggered doubles, I would follow my lob to the middle of the service box, and my partner would be at about the service line. Wouldn't a crosscourt drive or DTL lob be the better shot to choose?

So what shot should you hit if you are the server, and what does it depend on? Assume the level here is 4.0.

 

[rh310]

Is it possible you were ready for the server's shot because you knew she was going DTL ? It was a drill, after all.

 

[Cindysphinx]

No, I was ready for the server's shot because I was standing about five feet from the net, mirroring the ball.

 

[J_R_B]

If the shot is from a defensive position, I would try to hit low down the middle and try to make the volleyers hit from below the net level with no angle to get back in the point.

 

[zasr4325]

I was doing a clinic yesterday, and the pro wanted us to work on hitting and defending lobs off of the service return.

The drill was that the receiver was to hit a lob over the net player and follow it to net. The server was supposed to run over and fetch the lob.

The issue is what shot should the server hit. The pro said the preferred shot would be a low drive down the alley. She allowed that if the opponents were draped on the net, then you could lob.

We set up to start doing this drill, and I was receiving in the deuce court. I lob my return DTL and follow it to net. The server, attempting to follow the pro's guidance, tried to hit running BH drives down the alley. In other words, she sent the ball directly to my waiting racket for an easy crosscourt volley winner.

Boy, I thought. That cannot possibly be the best shot selection advice, especially if the opponents are playing staggered doubles. In staggered doubles, I would follow my lob to the middle of the service box, and my partner would be at about the service line. Wouldn't a crosscourt drive or DTL lob be the better shot to choose?

So what shot should you hit if you are the server, and what does it depend on? Assume the level here is 4.0.

It depends on how good the lob is. If its off a service return, it will usually only be a sliced chip, giving you a bit more time to set up. But if the lob is good enough, then you're usually being pushed back too far, meaning a dtl drive would give the opponent time to knock the volley off easily cross court (just like you said). I think if it was me, I'd try to hit with a lot of topspin down the middle, just trying to get the ball low to the opponents feet. And maybe take a bit of pace off to give yourself time to recover. Or if you're confident (and competent ) enough with your slice backhand, you could slice low down the middle and then move in, as you're forcing your opponent to hit up on the volley, giving you time to knock off their volley if you move in quickly. It also depends on how good the server is, as a decent serve (1st or 2nd) shouldn't really allow the opponent time to hit a good deep topspin lob. But I think the loopy topspin ball down the middle to their feet would be the easier, more consistent and more effective shot off any lob.

 

[tennisjon]

You are correct. I would hit a low shot, slightly cross-court but more down the line since the net person probably already moved towards the middle and the returner will either be in the process of moving forward or still at the baseline. If you see that they are fast enough to both get to the net, then a lob cross court would work.

 

[rh310]

No, I was ready for the server's shot because I was standing about five feet from the net, mirroring the ball.

Then maybe the next step is to ask the pro to demonstrate a few times (as server). If he wins the point with it but relies on inordinate power, or some attribute beyond the level on the court (hitting past you into a very small opening, etc.) then you have an opening to question the shot selection advice.

It's hard to diagnose these kinds of things in print.

 

[onehandbh]

I was doing a clinic yesterday, and the pro wanted us to work on hitting and defending lobs off of the service return.

The drill was that the receiver was to hit a lob over the net player and follow it to net. The server was supposed to run over and fetch the lob.

The issue is what shot should the server hit. The pro said the preferred shot would be a low drive down the alley. She allowed that if the opponents were draped on the net, then you could lob.

We set up to start doing this drill, and I was receiving in the deuce court. I lob my return DTL and follow it to net. The server, attempting to follow the pro's guidance, tried to hit running BH drives down the alley. In other words, she sent the ball directly to my waiting racket for an easy crosscourt volley winner.

Boy, I thought. That cannot possibly be the best shot selection advice, especially if the opponents are playing staggered doubles. In staggered doubles, I would follow my lob to the middle of the service box, and my partner would be at about the service line. Wouldn't a crosscourt drive or DTL lob be the better shot to choose?

So what shot should you hit if you are the server, and what does it depend on? Assume the level here is 4.0.

If I were the server, I would hit the following shots (in order of preference
and depending on how fast I could get there)

1) run across and hit an overhead down the middle. Partner at net
should either switch to other side or duck.

2) hit a high volley down the middle or at the net person's feet. (the
opponent, not my teammate!)

3) hit a groundstroke volley down the middle.

4) Now if I'm forced to to run back and let it bounce, then my preferences
are:
4a) if the lobber is still at the baseline, then I'll hit it down the line to him and probably go to net to join my doubles partner.
4b) if both opponents are now at the net and my partner is still at the
net and I'll hit a groundstroke up the middle if I can get enough on the ball.
4c) if I barely get to it then I'll throw up a high lob crosscourt, or just
any lob i can manage. Hitting it crosscourt gives you more margin for
error.

 

[Maui19]

If you're both at the net and I'm running over to get your lob return, I'm going to hit a lob back about 102% of the time. I'd probably hit a topspin lob back to the opposite corner.

I just can't see a DTL as the right call.

 

[esgee48]

For options 1, 2 & 3, I would rather hit a sharp angled shot towards the opponents' alley IF I can get to it that quickly. Swinging volley hard down the middle as 2nd option. Option 4 sounds good though you don't include a sharp cc slice (net skimmer) as another option before the cross court lob. A lot of times, opponents crowd the center of the net when they lob and come in.

To answer CS' question, the only time I would recommend hitting DTL per the pro's instruction is IF you have a 4.5+ groundie, which you can REALLY hit hard and you are set up to do it.

 

[Totai]

I would lob it back cross court. Going down the line on that is probably the lowest percentage shot, and also leaves a huge gap in between you and your partner that cannot be defended easily

 

[OrangePower]

Very hard to answer without seeing the circumstances. It really depends on the quality of the returner's lob, and how out of position the server is.

Honestly, if I imagine this scenario happening to me as a server, the only way I see it happening leaves me with no shot other than the lob. Here's my reasoning:

I hit my serve from the deuce court and start following my serve up to net. By the time I recognize that the returner is lobbing, I'm at the service line. At this point I expect my partner to get back to take an overhead if possible. If my partner is off balance and can't, or the lob is too good for this, then I need to cross over and take it out of the air. And if the lob is too good for this also, then I'm going to be scrambling to get back for it.

And there is no way I'm good enough to hit a controlled backhand drive while on the run, off-balance, well behind the baseline, scrambling back for a ball, and with both my opponents at the net! Maybe a pro could do it, but not a mere mortal 4.5 such as myself. So I would be throwing up a lob out of desperation.

But at different levels and styles of play, maybe there are scenarios where the server and his/her partner are not willing/able to take weaker lobs out of the air, or where the server is not following the serve up to the net. In these cases, maybe the server has more time to get to the lob, and maybe the lob is not that good to begin with, so that the server has time to maybe contemplate other options.

So basically, it depends

 

[Off The Wall]

Good independent thought on your part, Cindy. Your pro is nuts. A DTL drive is the last shot I'd attempt because, like you said, the netperson is given an easy put-away.

Lobbing back makes the most sense.

 

[NBM]

I dont think anyone mentioned that it would depend upon which service box the server is serving to and if the receiver of the lob is left or right handed, and at what place in the court the lob lands

the proper shot is very much circumstance dependent as well as ability dependent.

iMO there is too much emphasis placed on strategy at the 4.0 level..at the 4.0 level, there are far bigger fish to fry..things like mechanics/footwork etc which are best served by taking private or semi private lessons. it is pointless to instruct lessons to use a certain strategy, when they dont have the capacity to hit the shots the strategy calls for....i dont teach that way..it;s pointless.

also dont like the drills which call for lobbing over net players head as the first option...i much prefer they try and hit the overhead..at least they are learning something other than saying 'yours' and switching. also it tends to be automatic to just let the lob go over your head instead of hitting the overhead in real play if that is what is practiced. how many times have you seen players at the 4.0 level let lobs go in a match which can easily be covered by the net person? the overhead IS one of the shots afterall

 

[Bud]

I was doing a clinic yesterday, and the pro wanted us to work on hitting and defending lobs off of the service return.

The drill was that the receiver was to hit a lob over the net player and follow it to net. The server was supposed to run over and fetch the lob.

The issue is what shot should the server hit. The pro said the preferred shot would be a low drive down the alley. She allowed that if the opponents were draped on the net, then you could lob.

We set up to start doing this drill, and I was receiving in the deuce court. I lob my return DTL and follow it to net. The server, attempting to follow the pro's guidance, tried to hit running BH drives down the alley. In other words, she sent the ball directly to my waiting racket for an easy crosscourt volley winner.

Boy, I thought. That cannot possibly be the best shot selection advice, especially if the opponents are playing staggered doubles. In staggered doubles, I would follow my lob to the middle of the service box, and my partner would be at about the service line. Wouldn't a crosscourt drive or DTL lob be the better shot to choose?

So what shot should you hit if you are the server, and what does it depend on? Assume the level here is 4.0.

Since your pro told you to lob and then follow the shot to the net, the proper shot for the 'server' receiving your lob would have been a lob deep in the middle of the court or deep CC (which would then mess you and your partner up since one of you would have to backpedal). Furthermore, only about 1% of club players can consistently hit a BH drive DTL so it's a very low percentage shot (especially since you've come forward and are expecting it). Your pro is nuts.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

If the shot is from a defensive position, I would try to hit low down the middle and try to make the volleyers hit from below the net level with no angle to get back in the point.

^^^^ you can never go wrong hitting low drives down the middle. now if you leave them up that is a different matter.

 

[OrangePower]

^^^^ you can never go wrong hitting low drives down the middle. now if you leave them up that is a different matter.

That is assuming you have the skill to pull it off consistently. You must be a much stronger player than I. There is no way I can pull off this shot while off-balance and in motion scrambling backwards to retrieve a deep lob from well behind the baseline.

 

[sureshs]

Doesn't the net player who was lobbed have to "switch" to the other court to make way for the server's shot?

 

[Bud]

Doesn't the net player who was lobbed have to "switch" to the other court to make way for the server's shot?

Be a good idea... they may also want to move backward to prepare for Cindy's poach of the 'servers' running BH drive DTL

I still can't believe a pro gave this shot selection advice.

 

[LeeD]

..er...
Most tennis players, when they hit ONE stupid shot that goes for the opponent's winner, wont make the same dumb shot again....
So you're gonna get lobbed DTL and hit EVERY shot DTL in reply?
Please, use some of your imagination.

 

[zasr4325]

Be a good idea... they may also want to move backward to prepare for Cindy's poach of the 'servers' running BH drive DTL

I still can't believe a pro gave this shot selection advice.

Exactly. The BH DTL is a high risk shot in most court positions, let alone when you're having to backpedal and cover a lob. And you're also giving yourself less time to recover if the shot doesn't get low enough and the net player can hit a decent volley. It also means that the net player has more court and more angle to work with if the server goes DTL. I mean, to be honest, a DTL bh is probably just about the worst shot to hit in this position. However, a lot of it depends on the standard. I'm not from the US, so could anyone who knows the UK system as well maybe give me an idea of what 4.0 is? If you're around the intermediate level, and still trying to get consistency and other things sorted, then this amount of detail in tactics is really too much to think about. Really, off an awkward lob return, you just have to get the ball low and recover quickly. If the returners have moved in to the net it could be a good idea to try a lob, which would also work if you're pushed back too far.

 

[LuckyR]

I get this shot a fair amount, especially in the deuce court (when my first serve is cranking against a touch player, usually at 0.5 level above me). In my experience your Pro's advice (which may not have been advice on tactics, but just what she wanted you guys to work on for the sake of the drill) is very poor advice for the exact reason that you cite in your post. Basically you are hitting a BH groundstroke from the backcourt (while running top speed) to the netman's FH volley where he can split your team with a routine CC shot. The server has no particular angle to access the alley. I am hard pressed to come up with a worse shot selection for this scenario.

If I was a good lobber (which I am not) I would consider a CC lob (against 2 up). All of the advice about hitting overheads and BH swinging volleys don't apply to me, since in my scenario I have S&Ved and the lob is of good enough quality where my netman can't hit an overhead, so I have changed gears near first volley position and am running top speed to catch up with this thing. The best option for me is a BH groundie up the middle with lots of topspin, hopefully will be volleyed well below net level.

 

[Cindysphinx]

No, she definitely said the DTL was the best shot, and you shouldn't lob unless both opponents are draped on the net.

I think she is correct that it is the best shot for 5.0 players and up, when the opponents' overheads are not something to be trifled with.

I wasn't a big fan of the way this pro handled this drill. Lob drills are some of the toughest drills to structure because each player has an issue that needs to be addressed at our level.

The returner has to be scolded if they don't follow the lob in.

The server has to be scolded if they don't split step and change directions if a switch is called. They also have to be scolded if their partner lines up an overhead and they stand at the baseline watching.

The server's partner has to be scolded if she bails out instead of hitting her overhead, or if she switches without calling a switch.

And the receiver's partner has to be scolded if she stands flat-footed when the opponents are overheading a short lob.

With all of that going on, it doesn't help to throw in bad shot selection advice too!!

 

[Totai]

No, she definitely said the DTL was the best shot, and you shouldn't lob unless both opponents are draped on the net.

I think she is correct that it is the best shot for 5.0 players and up, when the opponents' overheads are not something to be trifled with.

I wasn't a big fan of the way this pro handled this drill. Lob drills are some of the toughest drills to structure because each player has an issue that needs to be addressed at our level.

The returner has to be scolded if they don't follow the lob in.

The server has to be scolded if they don't split step and change directions if a switch is called. They also have to be scolded if their partner lines up an overhead and they stand at the baseline watching.

The server's partner has to be scolded if she bails out instead of hitting her overhead, or if she switches without calling a switch.

And the receiver's partner has to be scolded if she stands flat-footed when the opponents are overheading a short lob.

With all of that going on, it doesn't help to throw in bad shot selection advice too!!

You should just stick to the 2 men in your life then

 

[Cindysphinx]

You should just stick to the 2 men in your life then

Ha!! This pro is a woman. So now it's two men and a woman in my life.

 

[Totai]

Ha!! This pro is a woman. So now it's two men and a woman in my life.

Wow, you have a lot of coaches. I wonder if having so many can be detrimental to your game, since I am assuming they each have their own teaching styles and theories about the game, and you end up being stuck in the middle of a 3 way tug of war.

 

[sureshs]

Ha!! This pro is a woman. So now it's two men and a woman in my life.

That sounds exciting, Kinkysphinx.

 

[skiracer55]

I think you can see...

...from the above replies that the real answer is "It depends." The one answer nobody came up with was for the server to hit an overhead, which is what I would have said. Even if you're coming in behind your serve, unless it gets behind you, the stock reply to a lob is to hit an overhead. If it does get behind you, then you do whatever you have to to stay in the point, which would probably be a lob.

There's kind of a codicil to this, which is that if a returner has an easy choice to hit a lob off a service return, the server ain't doing enough with the serve. If I hit a wide slice serve to the forehand in the deuce court and the returner is all stretched out reaching for it, he or she doesn't have many enviable choices, but a lob is perhaps the worst, because he or she is probably going to chum up a short lob that the net person can easily put away.

So the drill kind of assumes that the serve isn't much, and the returner can hoist a decent lob over the net person which the server has to deal with. Fine, if this 4.0-ish reality, and it could be, if I were running the drill, I'd have said "Okay, server, there's the situation...don't try to hit a miracle winner, just defend as best you can, and after each point, I'll ask you why you did what you did...passing shot, lob, whatever."

In some ways, doubles is more "scripted" than singles, in other ways, it is not. If you look at current ATP doubles, for example, a lot of the top teams are going with a S&V strategy with a lot of Australian formation with the server's partner at the middle of the net to start with. It's kind of the ultimate serve and volley, where the volleyer is already at the net, centered, when the receiver hits the ball. The net person can use whatever angle is appropriate on the return. Standard formation S&V doubles, it's often easier for the returner to stay away from the netperson, so the server has to hit the first volley...and that becomes very scripted...below the level of the net, go back cross court to the returner, above the level of the net, go at the returner's partner...

 

[onehandbh]

...from the above replies that the real answer is "It depends." The one answer nobody came up with was for the server to hit an overhead, which is what I would have said. Even if you're coming in behind your serve, unless it gets behind you, the stock reply to a lob is to hit an overhead.

That was my response also.

If I were the server, I would hit the following shots (in order of preference
and depending on how fast I could get there)

1) run across and hit an overhead down the middle. Partner at net
should either switch to other side or duck.
...

But this is probably more of a possibility for
4.0+ players since it might require better anticipation and athleticism /
court coverage. (e.g. spring back diagonally and go airborne before
unleashing a tomahawk overhead putaway)

My coach used to run us through this drill (for doubles & singles) where the
objective is to never let the ball touch the ground. The goal was to get
in position to hit a putaway shot and also control the net. It was a brutally
exhausting, but fun, drill. He'd feed all kinds of crazy, varied shots.
No flying wrenches, though.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Wow, you have a lot of coaches. I wonder if having so many can be detrimental to your game, since I am assuming they each have their own teaching styles and theories about the game, and you end up being stuck in the middle of a 3 way tug of war.

It's ok. I sometimes sub in for clinics hosted by friends if they need a fourth. So long as I get to practice some shots it's all good.

The problem here is that the three other clinic participants are teammates and frequent doubles partners. I wouldn't want my partners to think that this shot selection is correct.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Skiracer, I appreciate your thoughts, and of course an overhead is ideal. But consider the ground the server has to cover. She is serving from several feet over from the center hash. She has to get waaaaay over to her left before the ball bounces, in good enough position to smash? Oooh, not 4.0 stuff.

FWIW, serve and volley is not something I am seeing at ladies 4.0 except on the very high end. The serves are rarely that strong, and the returns are smoked. Personally, I am not all that successful with it unless the returners are hitting big angled returns or are routinely following their serves to net.

 

[Off The Wall]

No, she definitely said the DTL was the best shot, and you shouldn't lob unless both opponents are draped on the net.

I think she is correct that it is the best shot for 5.0 players and up, when the opponents' overheads are not something to be trifled with.

I don't think it's ever correct to run back and send a drive backhand up the line against a doubles team at the net. Ever. It's a dead loser. The backhander will never be in position to defend and her partner is a sitting duck.

Lobs are your best option because you and your partner will be able to set up a defense. If the lob is short, it's like hitting that backhand drive to your opponent...a dead loser.

However, if the lob is good enough, they will have to retreat to return it and you'll have a chance at gaining the advantage.

 

[LeeD]

I wonder....
If you lob DTL, cover that, and you can hit a winner off your opponent's DTL, are you camped too far near the alley, leaving the low center shot between your team wide open and vulnerable?

 

[Cindysphinx]

I wonder....
If you lob DTL, cover that, and you can hit a winner off your opponent's DTL, are you camped too far near the alley, leaving the low center shot between your team wide open and vulnerable?

No.

Because the server is hitting her ill-conceived DTL pass from very deep in the court, I have plenty of time to step over and pick it off and needn't alley camp. My partner who was already at net has shifted to the center to cover any attempted drive up the middle that is too far away from me (with her FH volley).

 

[LeeD]

Then I'd just hit a high, deep CC lob, end of problem, to start the point on even terms.
Me, I cannot cover the DTL pass with certainty and still cover a up the middle dipper. If partner cheats towards center stripe, he's very vulnerable to most players favorite shot, the hard topspin sharp angle CC that dips low after crossing the netcord.

 

[skiracer55]

Okay, good point...

Skiracer, I appreciate your thoughts, and of course an overhead is ideal. But consider the ground the server has to cover. She is serving from several feet over from the center hash. She has to get waaaaay over to her left before the ball bounces, in good enough position to smash? Oooh, not 4.0 stuff.

FWIW, serve and volley is not something I am seeing at ladies 4.0 except on the very high end. The serves are rarely that strong, and the returns are smoked. Personally, I am not all that successful with it unless the returners are hitting big angled returns or are routinely following their serves to net.

...I guess then all I would have said is what I ended up with, which is "this puts you in a defensive position, hit a defensive shot, don't try to go for a winner, just do whatever you have to to stay in the point, there is no perfect shot in this situation", instead of dictating that the ideal shot is a DTL passing shot.

Just some follow-up thoughts on S&V at whatever level. It used to be a few years ago that S&V, chip and charge was the only way to play doubles, at whatever level. Now, you're seeing all kinds of formations and strategies, so, as I said, in many ways, doubles is a whole lot less "scripted" than singles. "Scripting" is not bad, if it's done effectively. S&V, for example, is a "scripting" that can close off the opposing team's options...if the S&V is done right. If done poorly...well, it's a liability, which you allude to.

I *do* think more doubles teams, at all levels, ought to at least experiment with S&V, chip and charge because it somewhat simplifies things for the team using these strategies. To an extent, if I serve and stay back with my partner at the net...well, it's kind of open ended, with a lot of "it depends" for how an individual point plays out (Strong serve? Net person has an opportunity to hit a winning volley? Not strong serve? Now it's the responsibility of the server, who stayed back...unless, of course, the serve was such a helium ball that the returner gave the net person an extra navel. Semi-strong serve, return cross-court? Server hit a forcing ground stroke, and move into the net...or maybe not, if the server doesn't have a forcing ground stroke, or can't volley for beans).

You get the picture. It's almost like we're inventing new doubles strategies based on the fact that we haven't, in some cases, mastered stroke fundamentals. IMHO, at the 4.0 level, and even before, you ought to be working on beefing up your serve (and I'm using the editorial "you" here, not anyone in this forum...), or you're going to have to come up with all kinds of unnatural acts to make up for your deficiencies. Remember, the two most important shots in the game are the serve and the return, in that order. If you have neither, it doesn't matter how good your volley is, and in some ways, that is true at all levels, and moreso in doubles than in singles.

I have a fairly fast serve, but this last year, what I found was that it's a lot more important to (a) get in lots of first serves, (b) do so (get first serves in) with variety (don't serve to where they *think* I'm going, vary my spins) and (b) work always on making sure I have a dependable, heavy second serve that I can thump down the middle of the box so I'm at least starting on equal terms with the returner. I'm 62, and though I'm in good shape, I don't like playing long points, so a heavy, unpredictable serve and strong return let me take command of the point sooner than later and play short, offensive points. Defensive skills are important, but I think the days are over when you can win with pure defense (Eddie Dibbs, Harold Solomon, on clay, some years ago).

A service ace is a nice thing, but just as good is a service winner. And, practically speaking, what I'm really trying to do, on most points, is hit a serve that will give me what I want for the next shot. A couple of weeks back, before it really started snowing in Colorado, I was playing points with my regular hitting partner, who is a little younger than I am and as strong as a horse. I hit a heavy, wide slice serve in the deuce court to his forehand, came in behind it, he gave me a hard return at my shoetops...and I hit a backhand volley cross-court for a winner.

Afterwords, he said something like "That backhand volley...I know you had your eyes closed, because that was a Twilight Zone shot." And what I said was "I expected the ball to come exactly where it did, and I was looking for it. Serving where I did, and knowing what you usually do on your forehand return with that ball, the return came back right where I thought it would, so I just stepped in and volleyed it away. If you'd have done something different, well, I'd have reacted to that and played through that variation...but it didn't work that way, it worked like I thought it would."

So that's my lecture for today. The drill you were doing was a good one, because you have to learn defensive skills. Too many teams and players spend all their time trying to figure out how to hit only the best shots they're capable of, which is maybe not reality. But didn't someone say "The best defense is a good offense." Or, as we say in ski racing:

Question: How do you stop your skis from skidding?

Answer: Don't let them start!

So y'all did your defensive drills for the week, now go out and work on your serves and returns...

 

[onehandbh]

Up to around 4.0 or so, having a good lob will win you a lot of points.
At the higher levels, the lob is more of a last resort b/c overheads and
court coverage are much better. Hitting a lob winner then requires more
touch and knowing to do it when you opponent is off-balance or out of
position.

 

[LuckyR]

No, she definitely said the DTL was the best shot, and you shouldn't lob unless both opponents are draped on the net.

I think she is correct that it is the best shot for 5.0 players and up, when the opponents' overheads are not something to be trifled with.

I wasn't a big fan of the way this pro handled this drill. Lob drills are some of the toughest drills to structure because each player has an issue that needs to be addressed at our level.

The returner has to be scolded if they don't follow the lob in.

The server has to be scolded if they don't split step and change directions if a switch is called. They also have to be scolded if their partner lines up an overhead and they stand at the baseline watching.

The server's partner has to be scolded if she bails out instead of hitting her overhead, or if she switches without calling a switch.

And the receiver's partner has to be scolded if she stands flat-footed when the opponents are overheading a short lob.

With all of that going on, it doesn't help to throw in bad shot selection advice too!!

I guess your Pro and a lot of the posters on this thread have not met up with excellent lobbers with great touch. The fact that guys like that can send up high quality lobs off of good quality serves, is a reality I deal with from time to time, and is my reference point for addressing this issue.

Of course if the server is not playing S&V and the returner hits a pathetic lob that can be taken as an overhead, duh, hit the overhead. Was that what was going on in the drill?

 

[Ken Honecker]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of lobbing a return of serve. That is so not my game.

 

[J_R_B]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of lobbing a return of serve. That is so not my game.

Me neither, but I don't have much of a lob game at all (I'm much better at passing...). I do run into a significant number of players that can lob well, including off serves, though, too.

 

[Blade0324]

Cindy, Based on my experience and the advice I have been given by pro's the best shot selection would be one of the following. First a crosscourt dipping shot to the returners partner putting it in front of your partner. Second would be a dipping shot or low slice down the middle. Third would be a lob over either players BH shoulder. All of these shots are pretty high percentage, and put you in a situation where you are setting up your partner for a potential finishing shot.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of lobbing a return of serve. That is so not my game.

I am desperately trying to learn to lob off of the serve.

It is such an awesome shot to have when (1) net player is draped on the net, (2) server is coming in, (3) net player has 2HBH volley and you are lobbing down the alley on the deuce court, (4) server is serving from really wide or is very slow/immobile, or (5) server has sick groundstrokes and you would do *anything* to give yourself time to get to net so your 4.5 partner can defend the whole court and save your bacon.

 

[skiracer55]

See post #28...

I am desperately trying to learn to lob off of the serve.

It is such an awesome shot to have when (1) net player is draped on the net, (2) server is coming in, (3) net player has 2HBH volley and you are lobbing down the alley on the deuce court, (4) server is serving from really wide or is very slow/immobile, or (5) server has sick groundstrokes and you would do *anything* to give yourself time to get to net so your 4.5 partner can defend the whole court and save your bacon.

...this is kind of my point, generally. A lob off a serve *sounds* like a great option, tactically, but if the server has any kind of a decent serve, practically speaking, it may be a very low percentage shot, even if it goes in. The standard "scripting" in doubles is good serve, solid return, play the point from there.

As I said above, it used to be that it was even more scripted than that. First serve, move in, returner goes back cross court to the server, server hits a solid first volley back to the returner if the return is low, option to hit at the net person if the return floats.

Now it's much less scripted in the sense that, per the Bryan brothers, there's more emphasis on doing more with the first serve to open up the court, and, for the returner, doing something with the return to counter the serve/open up the point for the returning team. But the "doing something with the return" means be aggressive with the return but get lots of returns in (don't give the server a gimme, make the serving team play). Especially on swing points like 30-30, gotta get the return in. So, for me personally, I'm probably going to try to (a) get the return in (b) keep it low, and I probably won't try a lob return, which is a pretty low percentage shot for me. Your mileage may vary...

 

[li0scc0]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of lobbing a return of serve. That is so not my game.

It depends. I do find that a backhand block lob over the net player, deep, is a very effective shot. Not a high lob, but high enough that no net player is going to reach it. Plus, since the ball is going deep, the returner can charge the net, and show the dreaded 'two up' look

 

[Cindysphinx]

...this is kind of my point, generally. A lob off a serve *sounds* like a great option, tactically, but if the server has any kind of a decent serve, practically speaking, it may be a very low percentage shot, even if it goes in. The standard "scripting" in doubles is good serve, solid return, play the point from there.

At ladies 4.0 and below, it is rare to come across a serve that you cannot lob.

Hey, here's something else that happened.

One of the clinic participants and I were talking about hitting topspin lobs off of the serve. She said she thought it was easier to lob off of a second serve. I said that I find it hardest to lob off of a short, soft second serve. The reason is that you need a lot of topspin to bring the ball up and down. If you are lobbing off of an average first serve, you are often doing it from the baseline or behind the baseline such that if you don't get all the topspin you want it will still go in.

Anyone else experience that?

 

[skiracer55]

Okay, sounds reasonable...

At ladies 4.0 and below, it is rare to come across a serve that you cannot lob.

Hey, here's something else that happened.

One of the clinic participants and I were talking about hitting topspin lobs off of the serve. She said she thought it was easier to lob off of a second serve. I said that I find it hardest to lob off of a short, soft second serve. The reason is that you need a lot of topspin to bring the ball up and down. If you are lobbing off of an average first serve, you are often doing it from the baseline or behind the baseline such that if you don't get all the topspin you want it will still go in.

Anyone else experience that?

...remember where this started, which was what do you do, as the server, if the return is a lob over your partner's head? And I think the jury is out on it, but my take is still "play a defensive shot, whatever that is, and get back in the point."

Now we've segued into the lob return off a serve as a weapon. And, yep, if what you're saying is the case, and my observations say it probably is, lobbing a return is a fairly easy thing to do at 4.0 and below because serves ain't much at that level. To answer your question specifically, with a short, soft serve, I'd probably use an underspin lob...which has some disadvantages vs. a topspin lob, in that the underspin lob tends to hang up there, waiting to get drilled. BUT, if you want to lob in that situation, that's what I'd advise.

Back to the server in this scenario. As I've said before, the best way, IMHO, for a 3.5 to 4.0 to distance him/herself from the pack is to develop a better serve...more consistent, more pace, more spin, more direction. If I do that, I'm going to give my opponents much less opportunity to lob off my serve...or do anything else besides give me a return that I see and start licking my chops...any takers on that one?

 

[Bud]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of lobbing a return of serve. That is so not my game.

Me neither, but I don't have much of a lob game at all (I'm much better at passing...). I do run into a significant number of players that can lob well, including off serves, though, too.

If you receive a hard, fast, aggressive serve and have a good net player hogging the net, you try and pass them?

You're making life very hard for yourselves

 

[OrangePower]

Cindy, Based on my experience and the advice I have been given by pro's the best shot selection would be one of the following. First a crosscourt dipping shot to the returners partner putting it in front of your partner. Second would be a dipping shot or low slice down the middle. Third would be a lob over either players BH shoulder. All of these shots are pretty high percentage, and put you in a situation where you are setting up your partner for a potential finishing shot.

:shock: at the bolded part. So, there you are, scrambling back to cover for a lob that has gone over your partner, running off-balance and behind the baseline on your backhand (that was the scenario in the OP). And a low topspin crosscourt backhand drive is a high-percentage shot?!?

 

[LuckyR]

...remember where this started, which was what do you do, as the server, if the return is a lob over your partner's head? And I think the jury is out on it, but my take is still "play a defensive shot, whatever that is, and get back in the point."

Now we've segued into the lob return off a serve as a weapon. And, yep, if what you're saying is the case, and my observations say it probably is, lobbing a return is a fairly easy thing to do at 4.0 and below because serves ain't much at that level. To answer your question specifically, with a short, soft serve, I'd probably use an underspin lob...which has some disadvantages vs. a topspin lob, in that the underspin lob tends to hang up there, waiting to get drilled. BUT, if you want to lob in that situation, that's what I'd advise.

Back to the server in this scenario. As I've said before, the best way, IMHO, for a 3.5 to 4.0 to distance him/herself from the pack is to develop a better serve...more consistent, more pace, more spin, more direction. If I do that, I'm going to give my opponents much less opportunity to lob off my serve...or do anything else besides give me a return that I see and start licking my chops...any takers on that one?

Serves are serves regardless of level, you have to return them irrespective of their quality. Most folks who play singles work on either drives or chips depending on their playing style and how often their competition plays S&V, which for most is very rare.

Folks who play doubles deal with a netman routinely so a third option, the lob return of serve is more commonly used and by double specialists, is sometimes honed into a skilled return.

A singles player who rarely lobs returns is going to have to rely on his groundstroke lob skills to perform a return of serve lob. Not very pretty and likely to be off a bit, especially as you mention, if the serve is a good one.

However for a player who hits return of serve lobs all of the time, it is just another return option. If their competition has a great serve, they still have to return it somehow (with a netman at second volley position). Their lob return might be of only moderate percentage, but if the serve is that great, their drive and chip returns are likely to also be of only moderate quality too.

 

[olliess]

At ladies 4.0 and below, it is rare to come across a serve that you cannot lob.

I think the lob is worth developing as an option. If the serve is truly strong, I'm not sure any other return is necessarily higher-percentage (a weak crosscourt return is just as bad as a short lob attempt).

One of the clinic participants and I were talking about hitting topspin lobs off of the serve. She said she thought it was easier to lob off of a second serve. I said that I find it hardest to lob off of a short, soft second serve.

I agree with you, but the lob return doesn't really seem like the right option anyway for the short, soft second serve. You have all the angles and time on your side, why not go for something more aggressive (although not necessarily a winner)?