Shot Selection: Is The Pro Correct?

[skiracer55]

All true...

Serves are serves regardless of level, you have to return them irrespective of their quality. Most folks who play singles work on either drives or chips depending on their playing style and how often their competition plays S&V, which for most is very rare.

Folks who play doubles deal with a netman routinely so a third option, the lob return of serve is more commonly used and by double specialists, is sometimes honed into a skilled return.

A singles player who rarely lobs returns is going to have to rely on his groundstroke lob skills to perform a return of serve lob. Not very pretty and likely to be off a bit, especially as you mention, if the serve is a good one.

However for a player who hits return of serve lobs all of the time, it is just another return option. If their competition has a great serve, they still have to return it somehow (with a netman at second volley position). Their lob return might be of only moderate percentage, but if the serve is that great, their drive and chip returns are likely to also be of only moderate quality too.

...but I was going elsewhere, and I'll probably get into this, and some other stuff I've been thinking about in a series of posts in the Tennis Tips/Instruction forum. So what you're saying re the return sounds spot on, as they say Down Under. I'm looking at it from the server's point of view.

Here's a scenario: My partner and I are playing a team I don't know (but she does...), first game, first point, my serve. My partner goes "Oh my God...it's Jane the Lob Queen, and she's going to lob her return over my head, and then what'll we do? To which I say "Is that right? She's gonna lob over your head, huh? Well, we'll see about that..." At which point I go back and hit a wide slice serve for an ace...problem solved.

So that's, once again, my sermon for today. Regardless of whether it's a lob or some other kind of return, if you don't like what you're seeing, it's your job as the server to try to get the return you want (or, as in the case above, none at all), not what the returner wants to give you...

 

[LuckyR]

...but I was going elsewhere, and I'll probably get into this, and some other stuff I've been thinking about in a series of posts in the Tennis Tips/Instruction forum. So what you're saying re the return sounds spot on, as they say Down Under. I'm looking at it from the server's point of view.

Here's a scenario: My partner and I are playing a team I don't know (but she does...), first game, first point, my serve. My partner goes "Oh my God...it's Jane the Lob Queen, and she's going to lob her return over my head, and then what'll we do? To which I say "Is that right? She's gonna lob over your head, huh? Well, we'll see about that..." At which point I go back and hit a wide slice serve for an ace...problem solved.

So that's, once again, my sermon for today. Regardless of whether it's a lob or some other kind of return, if you don't like what you're seeing, it's your job as the server to try to get the return you want (or, as in the case above, none at all), not what the returner wants to give you...

I am confused. If you have a serve that reliably aces people, what do you care if they are a lob queen or a drive queen or a chip queen. If you have that great of a serve, use it on everybody and never get broken.

For everyone else, that is servers (like myself) who have their opponents have a chance of hitting a return off of their serve, whether that return is a drive, chip or lob is the choice of the returner. You can (and doesn't everybody every time they step on a court?) try to minimize the damage they can do with their return. But that is my baseline assumption.

 

[skiracer55]

I think we're in violent agreement where you say...

I am confused. If you have a serve that reliably aces people, what do you care if they are a lob queen or a drive queen or a chip queen. If you have that great of a serve, use it on everybody and never get broken.

For everyone else, that is servers (like myself) who have their opponents have a chance of hitting a return off of their serve, whether that return is a drive, chip or lob is the choice of the returner. You can (and doesn't everybody every time they step on a court?) try to minimize the damage they can do with their return. But that is my baseline assumption.

"You can (and doesn't everybody every time they step on a court?) try to minimize the damage they can do with their return." Not necessarily. In Post #31 in this thread, Cindy said "FWIW, serve and volley is not something I am seeing at ladies 4.0 except on the very high end. The serves are rarely that strong, and the returns are smoked."

And my point was, yes, you need to have a sufficiently wide tactical base to deal with a lob over the server's partner (and, to your point, a decent drive or chip return), but, if it really is true that the serves aren't strong and the returns are smoked...well, then I submit that your first order of business is to beef up your serve...

 

[Cindysphinx]

I submit that the first order of business is to recognize that not everyone can "beef up" every shot. This includes the serve. I am a 50-year-old woman, 5 feet 4 inches and shrinking even as we speak. There is only so much improvement in my serve I am going to be able to make. I am never, ever going to reliably ace people.

Really, couldn't pretty much any question raised in this forum be answered with, "You need to beef up that shot!" Heck, there are pros who, for whatever reason, never really beefed up the serve. Hingis. Jankovich. And we have Henin, who is about my size and is trying to beef up her serve, with dubious results.

Anyway. I do think learning to lob off of the return is important for another reason. There are a lot of Jabba The Hut doubles players at ladies 3.5 and 4.0. They stand in their little corner and love to see you hit crosscourt balls at them. The one thing they don't want to do is move. So you can slice to make them run forward, but you'd better be careful because your ball might float.

Or you can lob their partner and watch them ooze over there in time to play the ball. After they lose a few points this way, the net player will back up, which allows you to hit drives DTL, crosscourt, up the middle or anywhere else your heart desires.

So I gotta get better at lobbing off the return!!

 

[Totai]

I submit that the first order of business is to recognize that not everyone can "beef up" every shot. This includes the serve. I am a 50-year-old woman, 5 feet 4 inches and shrinking even as we speak. There is only so much improvement in my serve I am going to be able to make. I am never, ever going to reliably ace people.

Really, couldn't pretty much any question raised in this forum be answered with, "You need to beef up that shot!" Heck, there are pros who, for whatever reason, never really beefed up the serve. Hingis. Jankovich. And we have Henin, who is about my size and is trying to beef up her serve, with dubious results.

Anyway. I do think learning to lob off of the return is important for another reason. There are a lot of Jabba The Hut doubles players at ladies 3.5 and 4.0. They stand in their little corner and love to see you hit crosscourt balls at them. The one thing they don't want to do is move. So you can slice to make them run forward, but you'd better be careful because your ball might float.

Or you can lob their partner and watch them ooze over there in time to play the ball. After they lose a few points this way, the net player will back up, which allows you to hit drives DTL, crosscourt, up the middle or anywhere else your heart desires.

So I gotta get better at lobbing off the return!!

No, what you got to do here is beef up your height

 

[LeeD]

As a B player in the old days, and possibly playing some real 6.0's, the lob was used on return of serve when the server attacked net on the second serve. I used it a lot, which led me to a 1hbh slice backand. Slice is the height control, much easier than topspin, and depth is controlled by how hard you swing at the ball.
This is often used against my serve, as I normally come into net position. A good lob DTL forces me to stop, change directions, and cover my netman. Most normal reply is a DTL groundie, if returner stays back. If returner takes net position, the a dipper low up the center or a deep CC lob is the options.

 

[jonnyjack]

There are a lot of Jabba The Hut doubles players at ladies 3.5 and 4.0.

Haha, that made me laugh since it's so true. Please wear longer skirts to all you Ms. Jabba the Huts!

No, what you got to do here is beef up your height

Also, you need to run faster and jump higher.

 

[Steady Eddy]

I submit that the first order of business is to recognize that not everyone can "beef up" every shot. This includes the serve. I am a 50-year-old woman, 5 feet 4 inches and shrinking even as we speak. There is only so much improvement in my serve I am going to be able to make. I am never, ever going to reliably ace people.

Your age is ok, but you really should be taller. At least 5' 7" for doubles.

I think you're right about your pro's shot selection. DTL is pretty risky in doubles and only try it when you see an opening. But...this was just a drill, and a drill can help your strokes even if the strategy is confused.

 

[olliess]

Other thing is, the DTL bh winner is low-percentage, but demonstrating (even once in match) that you can do it keeps the opposing player a bit more honest.

 

[skiracer55]

I'm 62, 5' 7", and shrinking...

I submit that the first order of business is to recognize that not everyone can "beef up" every shot. This includes the serve. I am a 50-year-old woman, 5 feet 4 inches and shrinking even as we speak. There is only so much improvement in my serve I am going to be able to make. I am never, ever going to reliably ace people.

Really, couldn't pretty much any question raised in this forum be answered with, "You need to beef up that shot!" Heck, there are pros who, for whatever reason, never really beefed up the serve. Hingis. Jankovich. And we have Henin, who is about my size and is trying to beef up her serve, with dubious results.

Anyway. I do think learning to lob off of the return is important for another reason. There are a lot of Jabba The Hut doubles players at ladies 3.5 and 4.0. They stand in their little corner and love to see you hit crosscourt balls at them. The one thing they don't want to do is move. So you can slice to make them run forward, but you'd better be careful because your ball might float.

Or you can lob their partner and watch them ooze over there in time to play the ball. After they lose a few points this way, the net player will back up, which allows you to hit drives DTL, crosscourt, up the middle or anywhere else your heart desires.

So I gotta get better at lobbing off the return!!

...and my serve has gotten a lot better, just in the past season. Yours can, too. Just show me some video...or, better yet, let's get some time on the court...and I'll tell you where to go from here...

 

[larry10s]

a wide slice ace is not hit at max mph.
an up the t serve that lands very close to the t doesnt need 130 mph to be effective


becoming more accurate and consistent is a way to "beef up" your serve without adding mph.

you can do that even if you are shrinking

 

[skiracer55]

Bingo...

a wide slice ace is not hit at max mph.
an up the t serve that lands very close to the t doesnt need 130 mph to be effective


becoming more accurate and consistent is a way to "beef up" your serve without adding mph.

you can do that even if you are shrinking

...and those are exactly the improvements I made in my serve last summer...

 

[LuckyR]

As a B player in the old days, and possibly playing some real 6.0's, the lob was used on return of serve when the server attacked net on the second serve. I used it a lot, which led me to a 1hbh slice backand. Slice is the height control, much easier than topspin, and depth is controlled by how hard you swing at the ball.
This is often used against my serve, as I normally come into net position. A good lob DTL forces me to stop, change directions, and cover my netman. Most normal reply is a DTL groundie, if returner stays back. If returner takes net position, the a dipper low up the center or a deep CC lob is the options.

What he said...

 

[anontennis]

If the shot is from a defensive position, I would try to hit low down the middle and try to make the volleyers hit from below the net level with no angle to get back in the point.

This. If you don't have the ability or confidence, go for a lob, or aim to the side of the player who is (the most off balance/the lesser volleyer/etc.) but a bit outside their reach.

A running backhand down the alley seems like the wrong play, even in highly competitive doubles...

 

[Cindysphinx]

Speaking of serving . . .

New pro told me in November that he thought he could teach me a kick serve by April.

Today, we made our first attempt at a kick serve. We only had about 10 minutes left in the lesson. First, he had me hit some serves to warm up.

Then he took away my racket and gave me a tennis ball. I was to hold the ball in my left hand up and in front of me. My right hand was to simulate a racket. I was to take my right hand, turn it sideways, and use the fingers/palm to brush up on the ball my LF was holding.

After a few of those, I was to toss the ball and try to get that same brushing, topspin action.

What do you know? Some of them went over the net and bounced in the corner closest to the net. In a match, such a serve would hit the curtain before the returner could reach it.

Hmmm. Maybe I really can learn a kick serve. It would be awesome to have the option of a flat serve, slice serve and kick serve.

 

[larry10s]

fuzzy yellow balls PROGRESSIONS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7z7vEVqz1A
follow the progesion serieis and you will have a kick serve

 

[Cindysphinx]

fuzzy yellow balls PROGRESSIONS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7z7vEVqz1A
follow the progesion serieis and you will have a kick serve

Tried it this summer. No soup for me.

 

[onehandbh]

Despite all the tactical advice given to cindy the sphinx, sometimes the best
shot is using YOUR best shot. (e.g. if for some reason your backhand slice
is by far your best shot, then use that instead of throwing up a crappy
lob that gets put away.

 

[olliess]

What do you know? Some of them went over the net and bounced in the corner closest to the net. In a match, such a serve would hit the curtain before the returner could reach it.

Wait, what happened again?

Hmmm. Maybe I really can learn a kick serve. It would be awesome to have the option of a flat serve, slice serve and kick serve.

Unless your flat serve is pretty awesome, I'd say the latter two are way more useful in a match.

 

[Cindysphinx]

^I was serving in the deuce court. The serve hit the corner of the opposite service box closest to the net, wide.

Yes, having those spin serves will be more useful. Everyone at my level knows how to handle flat serves. Unless a flat serve is exceptional, it won't win you many points considering what you give up in accuracy, IMHO.

 

[Blade0324]

:shock: at the bolded part. So, there you are, scrambling back to cover for a lob that has gone over your partner, running off-balance and behind the baseline on your backhand (that was the scenario in the OP). And a low topspin crosscourt backhand drive is a high-percentage shot?!?

It would be a good percentage shot for me. I am fast enough that with the returner lobbing I can move comfortably to the ball, get in proper position, let it drop to my strike zone, step in and hit a BH with a lot of topspin dipping hard crosscourt. Unless you are playing someone that is a lefty on the add court this will be a low ball to their BH forcing them to hit up to your partner for an easy put away. I would say that I can execute this play 80% of the time.

I guess my point with the shot selection is that you have to remember in doubles your shot selection should be largely based on setting up your partner.

 

[JavierLW]

I was doing a clinic yesterday, and the pro wanted us to work on hitting and defending lobs off of the service return.

The drill was that the receiver was to hit a lob over the net player and follow it to net. The server was supposed to run over and fetch the lob.

The issue is what shot should the server hit. The pro said the preferred shot would be a low drive down the alley. She allowed that if the opponents were draped on the net, then you could lob.

We set up to start doing this drill, and I was receiving in the deuce court. I lob my return DTL and follow it to net. The server, attempting to follow the pro's guidance, tried to hit running BH drives down the alley. In other words, she sent the ball directly to my waiting racket for an easy crosscourt volley winner.

Boy, I thought. That cannot possibly be the best shot selection advice, especially if the opponents are playing staggered doubles. In staggered doubles, I would follow my lob to the middle of the service box, and my partner would be at about the service line. Wouldn't a crosscourt drive or DTL lob be the better shot to choose?

So what shot should you hit if you are the server, and what does it depend on? Assume the level here is 4.0.

I would think going between them is better then going down the line.

You and your partner (if your partner is not on the baseline) have a built in hole on your side if you go right at the player in front of you, that's bad news....

Also you're screwing your partner as well because they may not be expecting that it's going to go right to the net player on that side.

I always try to arrange with my partners if I can that in this situation we're going to go down the middle. That way my partner at the net knows where to expect the ball is going to come from.

 

[olliess]

I would think going between them is better then going down the line.

You and your partner (if your partner is not on the baseline) have a built in hole on your side if you go right at the player in front of you, that's bad news....

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the partner should be doing after being lobbed down the line? As the partner who got lobbed down the line, my instinct would be to switch and back up a little, but try to stay out of the way in case my partner decided to go cross court or take the overhead. That might be completely incorrect though.

 

[jonnyjack]

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the partner should be doing after being lobbed down the line? As the partner who got lobbed down the line, my instinct would be to switch and back up a little, but try to stay out of the way in case my partner decided to go cross court or take the overhead. That might be completely incorrect though.

If opponent just lobbed over you and your partner is running it down crosscourt and looks like a defensve shot is coming, you better be retreating to the baseline unless you want to get tagged by your opponents.

Now only do you save yourself a bruise but you'll have a better chance at returning a smash or something. Of course, keep an eye out for a drop shot from the opponent and ready to sprint forward to make them pay for trying to be too cute!

 

[ajinfante]

returners drill?

Maybe the pro was expecting the returner to be the one running the drill. I.E., this drill was SUPPOSED to elicit the cross court volley from the returner coming to the net?

 

[LeeD]

JJ, you can't make it all the way to the baseline, get set, then splitstep. Only a track athlete could cover that distance in that amount of time.
Instead, set up just behind the service line, ready for a smash at your feet. That way, you cover a possible lob, a drop shot, and can still half or low volley your opponent's shot hit at you.

 

[Cindysphinx]

If my partner is running down a lob, I switch and then look at my partner. If she is in trouble, I move back and split when opponents hit. If she is not in trouble, I hold my ground at the service line.

I love it when my opponens stay at the sevice line when I am smashing. Gives me a nice lane if I want. Or a target if I want.

 

[LeeD]

Depends just how good the overhead is.
Most times, against anyone with a sub 120 mph serve, I can half volley or low block it back if it's within reach. If overheader hits it 100+, of course, no chance.
Backpedalling or crabwalking to NML is the most losing proposition. There, you have no chance whatsover, as the overheader just aims deeper and you have more court to cover.
Forward of the service line is loser's lane also, of course.
So by elimination, position yourself just behind your own service line.

 

[vinouspleasure]

It's a drill right? Hitting a bh down the line is a decent option, especially if your body mass is taking you off court. It also forces the net person to cover the alley and opens up some holes in the middle for other points.

Since I serve and volley, I'll volley lobs that aren't too deep over my partner's head and the correct place to volley those lobs is down the line. Deep lobs are a much harder proposition and as other have said, it depends.

Honestly, most lobs in our men's games are taken as overheads and lobbing back a lob is not a great option.