Shoudler tilt, height of takeback etc.

[kickingbird]

Hi it's me again. I've been getting some good feedback lately so I thought I might ask just a few more things.

Q: What determines the height you get on the trajectory of a ball? Is it the lowness of the takeback? How low should this takeback be vs high balls and low balls? I have tried everything- level backswing, very low backswing, higher-than-the-ball backswing... all produce different results.

Q2: Also to do with takeback. This one is a little hard to explain- imagine you are holding a racquet to hit horizontally (to hit a fh or bh). If you move your thumb towards your body, the racquet will move upwards anticlockwise and the tip of the racquet will be pointing at an angle upwards. Conversely if you move your wrist so that the thumb goes away from your body, the racquet will move down clockwise and the racquet tip will be pointing downwards.

Now... I have found that if you hit the ball when the racquet is pointing a little up, it is easier to hit a flat shot, harder to hit topspin, and the trajectory is usually low (therefore harder to lift the ball up). It is also easier to keep a firm wrist this way. When it is pointing down, it's easier to create topspin and the ball tends to fly up more. When the racquet is horizontal it's a combination of both. Am I right so far? My question is what should the racquet look like throughout the stroke? A lot of the time my racquet tip is pointing excessively downwards, which is probably a bad thing?

Q3: I have a habit of tilting my shoulderline backwards when I prepare to hit a topspin shot. ie. my hitting shoulder tilts downwards in order to get under the ball. Is this a bad thing? I notice that it does hinder my timing occasionally and cause me to mis-hit the ball. A parallel shoulder line on the other hand seems to prooduce more consistent results but with less spin.

Thanks for reading, any help will be appreciated.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

Q2: Also to do with takeback. This one is a little hard to explain- imagine you are holding a racquet to hit horizontally (to hit a fh or bh). If you move your thumb towards your body, the racquet will move upwards anticlockwise and the tip of the racquet will be pointing at an angle upwards. Conversely if you move your wrist so that the thumb goes away from your body, the racquet will move down clockwise and the racquet tip will be pointing downwards.

Now... I have found that if you hit the ball when the racquet is pointing a little up, it is easier to hit a flat shot, harder to hit topspin, and the trajectory is usually low (therefore harder to lift the ball up). It is also easier to keep a firm wrist this way. When it is pointing down, it's easier to create topspin and the ball tends to fly up more. When the racquet is horizontal it's a combination of both. Am I right so far? My question is what should the racquet look like throughout the stroke? A lot of the time my racquet tip is pointing excessively downwards, which is probably a bad thing?.

If I understood you correctly:

- thumb moving towards the body, this is pronation of the arm, and the racket face becomes closed
- thumb moving away from the body, this is supination of the arm, and the racket face becomes open

(talking about FH)

And yes, a closed face generally leads to a lower trajectory for the ball than an open face (which is used say for lobs).

Also, if you're hitting a topspin (FH or BH) it is generally recommended that during the takeback the racket face should be at least partially closed at a given point in time, if you want to make to ball to remain within the confines of the court / more control.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

Q3: I have a habit of tilting my shoulderline backwards when I prepare to hit a topspin shot. ie. my hitting shoulder tilts downwards in order to get under the ball. Is this a bad thing? I notice that it does hinder my timing occasionally and cause me to mis-hit the ball. A parallel shoulder line on the other hand seems to prooduce more consistent results but with less spin..

I'd say that that's not recommended in a majority of situations. You should flex your knees more, while keeping the upper body straight and the shoulder line virtually horizontal, for maximum balance.

What you're doing is used by the pros only in emergency situations, such as driving with topspin a ball which came unexpectedly low.

See Agassi in:

http://users.swing.be/excellence-software/MAIN/PERSONAL/TENNIS/index.htm
Generic principles -> Spin
(between Federer and Sampras)
where he lowers his right shoulder to get to the ball.

 

[paulfreda]

Technique

Kickingbird
These things you have discovered are what technique is all about. There are hundreds of little secrets you can discover for yourself during practice and play. Remember them, write them down in as much detail as you can because you will forget them.
Quite often no one including the pros will know what you are talking about. It does not matter if you understand what you do and what result it produces for you.
Keep playing and discovering your own technique ..... it's one of he great joys of playing the game.

 

[jun]

tilting shoulder when hitting shots are bad habit. On a topspin lob, your weight might be on the back foot. On 99% of shots, your shots should be hit with level shoulder.

I have come to learn that it's not really go to think about how you swing- in a sense that don't try to do something at the point of contact.

 

[kickingbird]

Marius, I'm actually not talking about closedness/openness of the face, but rather, ok how do I explain this... imagine you're hitting a high volley. The way the racquet looks when you hit it is what I tried to describe when I said 'the tip of the racquet is pointing at an upward angle.' The bumper guard is pointing towards the sky. And it's just that I find that if the racquet is facing slightly upwards on contact, it's easier to hit flat shots.

But thank you and thank you jun for the advice on the shoulder tilt.

paulfreda, actually I do exactly what you told me to do! I've been doing it for about a year now and have about 8 exercise books full of useful and useless information. It's probably a whole lot quicker to just go to a coach and be told what to do, but I find that discovering things myself is much more satisfying and enjoyable. And it's after I make these 'discoveries' that I start asking people like those of this board if they are valid.

But I must say, if I was only concerned about improving in the shortest amount of time possible, coaching would be the answer. But seen as though it's not quite my priority... yeah, well anyway, thanks again guys.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

Marius, I'm actually not talking about closedness/openness of the face, but rather, ok how do I explain this... imagine you're hitting a high volley. The way the racquet looks when you hit it is what I tried to describe when I said 'the tip of the racquet is pointing at an upward angle.' The bumper guard is pointing towards the sky. And it's just that I find that if the racquet is facing slightly upwards on contact, it's easier to hit flat shots.

OK, now I think that I know what you're talking about. It seems to be also the angle that the racket handle makes with the horizontal. One can control that a little from the wrist, but there isn't much mobility there I would say and you don't want to take the wrist from a balanced position, or this could lead to wrist problems.

If you're trying to adjust that from your wrist during the shot, that's not recommended. Ideally, the tip of the racket should be pointing horizontally at contact (horizontal handle). Now, as you mentioned for high volleys, that's not always possible.

I think that concentrating on the closed/open/vertical aspect of the racket wrt ball at contact face is more important in terms of ball trajectory and spin.