Should a serve hit the back fence?

Steady Eddy

Steady Eddy

Legend
Do you know what I mean by this? Should a good serve hit the court and then the back fence without anymore bounces? When I practice serving I use this as a measure to see if I have decent power or not. Sometimes it does this, other times not.

I noticed that the local pro's serve takes two bounces to reach the back fence. So I think he can't help me power up my serve. Is this a good way to measure how powerful your serve is? Or does how high up it hits the back fence depend more on the height of the server and spin? If it depends on speed, does anyone know the speed? Like say, over 90 mph and the serve hits the back fence.

P.S. Anyone else ever examine this? Like if I get aced and the ball hit a corner and then the fence, I feel that it's ok that I got aced. But if it doesn't even reach the fence, then I feel I should have had it.
 
Yes, we looked at this before. There is no consensus. I think it means something. But it depends on a lot of factors like spin and height. If you're bangin it 5 feet high, there's no doubt you're getting power. Best way is to get a radar gun.
 
A good serve is a serve that your opponent can't T off on. That is all. An ace or sitter are bonuses. If I hit can underhand serve that you can barely get a racquet on and pop up a shot for me to put away, it was a good serve. That's my opinion.
 
well the balls got to hit the back fence....... eventually
 
I think the only way to measure the effectiveness of a serve is to look at % of points won on first and second serves. You might just have a weak kicker, but if you're winning 90% of first serves, you're obviously serving effectively. All you need is a serve that puts you in a position to win the point.
 
topspin_17 said:
well the balls got to hit the back fence....... eventually
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Lol nice save. Yeah all my serves hit the back fence...sometimes the net post, top of the net, bench by the court, MY service box(ping pong style baby). It's generally in one direction but when I first started learning to serve the right way I was hitting EVERYTHING
 
lakis92 said:
Every kick serve you hit has to hit the back fence. American twist services the same!
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Say what? That's pretty absurd as I rarely, if ever, see even pro's second serves get close to hitting the wall.. I think the only times I've seen that is when it's a super deep, abnormally kicking kick serve down the line. The point of kicking second serves is to hit a shot with a high % of landing in that gets the ball up high and out of the opponent's comfort zone after the bounce; I guess, though, if you're consistently hitting second serves that have enough pace and are flying up and hitting the back of the fence more power to you.

Just wondering though, maybe I'm wrong, is there anyone else whose kick serves always hit the back of the fence after the first bounce?
 
Steady Eddy said:
I noticed that the local pro's serve takes two bounces to reach the back fence. So I think he can't help me power up my serve.
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Just because he can't/doesn't do it, doesn't mean he can't help you to do it. I know a few teaching pros with various injuries, or who are much older, that don't allow them to preform like champions, even though they know how to... I would just ask - maybe ask for an introductory (free) lesson - and just ask for more power on your serve.
 
Steady Eddy said:
Should a good serve hit the court and then the back fence without anymore bounces?
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I think a 'fast' flat serve should hit the back fence (with only one bounce inside service box). I've been watching this carefully last week at Indy championship. The ball hits the fence waist height with ~120mph flatter. However, Roddick's 139mph service ace doesn't seem to get higher than waist level. Surely, kicker hits as high as shoulder level.

I remember a teaching pro saying that it's a key measure for your power level.
 
ubel said:
Say what? That's pretty absurd as I rarely, if ever, see even pro's second serves get close to hitting the wall.. I think the only times I've seen that is when it's a super deep, abnormally kicking kick serve down the line. The point of kicking second serves is to hit a shot with a high % of landing in that gets the ball up high and out of the opponent's comfort zone after the bounce; I guess, though, if you're consistently hitting second serves that have enough pace and are flying up and hitting the back of the fence more power to you.

Just wondering though, maybe I'm wrong, is there anyone else whose kick serves always hit the back of the fence after the first bounce?
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On stadium courts, that might be true. Put pros on club courts where the fences are in closer and it's not so rare.

I remember seeing some college kid at the Winnetka challenger regularly hitting near the top of the fence after kick second serves down the T. Completely insane.

For us mere mortals, the poster above who said any serve that doesn't allow the other guy to tee off is a good serve is right. In fact, I'd expand his definition to include serves where they *think* they can tee off, but really shouldn't due to spin, speed, angle, etc. There's nothing better than squeezing off a sneaky service game where the other dude has no idea why he can't get your serve back in play.
 
is the distance from the baseline to the fence same at every court?

is the distance from the baseline to the fence same at every court?

it it isn't, then how can we use this as measurement?
 
Steady Eddy said:
Do you know what I mean by this? Should a good serve hit the court and then the back fence without anymore bounces? When I practice serving I use this as a measure to see if I have decent power or not. Sometimes it does this, other times not.

I noticed that the local pro's serve takes two bounces to reach the back fence. So I think he can't help me power up my serve. Is this a good way to measure how powerful your serve is? Or does how high up it hits the back fence depend more on the height of the server and spin? If it depends on speed, does anyone know the speed? Like say, over 90 mph and the serve hits the back fence.

P.S. Anyone else ever examine this? Like if I get aced and the ball hit a corner and then the fence, I feel that it's ok that I got aced. But if it doesn't even reach the fence, then I feel I should have had it.
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The way you ask the question makes a response difficult. However, if you are 1) on a "standard" court where the fence is a "standard" distance behind the baseline and 2) you are trying to hit a power serve (not trying to slice it out wide, etc.), then your serve should easily hit the back fence "on the fly" (meaning it hits in the service box and hits the back fence before bouncing) if you have any kind of power at all.
 
assuming the fence or curtain is at a typical distance, not a huge distance,

and you are using new balls,

and you serve in the 90s mph or higher,

and the serve is in and (you tend to serve deep in the box, or have a some to excellent kick on your balls),

then the balls will definately hit the fence on a first bounce anywhere from 1 to 4 feet up the fence.

Even my serving basket of very dead balls hits the back fence 90% of the time and if there is even a small downward slope in the direction of the fence they all definately hit the fence.
 
After a certain power level the balls won't keep hitting the back fence higher and higher, but they'll get stuck in the fence a lot of times, and they'll still be going up as they hit the fence. Sometimes they might even go right through the fence.

I think it's a very good *relative* measure of how hard you hit your serve. If you often play on the same courts, you'll clearly see a difference if your power level has increased. Or you can compare with your opponents.

In absolute terms, it is very hard to tell, but by my experience if you're hitting flat on a regular hard court and it reaches the fence in one bounce then it's going at least 80mph or so. If it hits the fence like 3ft high then it's probably around 100mph at least. At 5ft high you're looking at something that was moving at least 110mph. Any higher than 5ft is very hard to get with a flat serve, past that point you have to look at how hard it hit the fence, not how high.
 
Tough I would sometimes use the back fence as a reference point as I was serving to determine the pace and bounce of my serve.
But since I'm now aware of my serve speed and of my serve's bounce, which of course, varies depending on the serve I use and the type of court I play on.
I don't use the back fence as a reference point anymore since the distance of the back fence varies from one court to another.

gb
 
Screw that 'hitting the back fence' thing

I serve so hard my serves go through the back fence, impaling innoncent bystanders. It's pretty messy, yet oddly satisfying.
 
Supernatural_Serve said:
assuming the fence or curtain is at a typical distance, not a huge distance,

and you are using new balls,

and you serve in the 90s mph or higher,

and the serve is in and (you tend to serve deep in the box, or have a some to excellent kick on your balls),

then the balls will definately hit the fence on a first bounce anywhere from 1 to 4 feet up the fence.
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New balls? yes. Everything else, probably no. Years ago when they used to let you time your serve at shopping malls, it was in the upper 70's :oops:. I keep wondering if I'd added pace, but the fact that it lands just before the fence, or one inch up on the fence, like it did back then, makes me wonder if I still have my 70 mph serve.

(I've heard Ken Rosewall had a 70 mph serve. How did he stay at the top with that?)

P.S. It's 21 feet from the baseline to the fence, I think that's a regulation distance.
 
boojay said:
A good serve is a serve that your opponent can't T off on. That is all. An ace or sitter are bonuses. If I hit can underhand serve that you can barely get a racquet on and pop up a shot for me to put away, it was a good serve. That's my opinion.
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this is very true, if the opponent cant get a good return in then it has been a successful serve.
 
No need to worry about how many bounces it takes to reach the back fence, especially on non-kickers. I don't expect my hard slice serve to hit the back fence. It all depends on the serve, though. An extremely hard and low flat serve may bounce several times before it hits the fence. An underhand serve may NEVER reach the back fence :o, and even a topspin/slice serve might bounce once before it hits the fence.

All of these depend on how far away the fence is. Also, it is about your serve being effective. If you hit a hard slice serve and ace your opponent (or set up a winner), you've done what you're supposed to do. If you hit a serve long and hard into the fence...well, at least you hit the back fence! :grin:
 
Supernatural_Serve said:
assuming the fence or curtain is at a typical distance, not a huge distance,

and you are using new balls,

and you serve in the 90s mph or higher,

and the serve is in and (you tend to serve deep in the box, or have a some to excellent kick on your balls),

then the balls will definately hit the fence on a first bounce anywhere from 1 to 4 feet up the fence.

Even my serving basket of very dead balls hits the back fence 90% of the time and if there is even a small downward slope in the direction of the fence they all definately hit the fence.
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well, your serve is supernatural so i would expect it to, hey?;)
 
I believe i have a very good serve. Most of my opponents (and matches/points i won on my serve) and a few Pro's i worked with said the same. But i cant always hit the fence on a legal serve(ie serve falls within service box) with one Bounce.
 
Tennis_Monk said:
I believe i have a very good serve. Most of my opponents (and matches/points i won on my serve) and a few Pro's i worked with said the same. But i cant always hit the fence on a legal serve(ie serve falls within service box) with one Bounce.
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That makes me feel better. For some reason my serve often shoots real low when it hits the court, making it hard to return. I don't ace many people, but alot of the time their return goes over the baseline. Since I don't own a radar gun I'm only guessing at the speed, and even though 70 mph sounds slow, when I look at the 70 mph baseball pitches at the batting cages, those don't look slow at all.
 
Steady Eddy said:
That makes me feel better. For some reason my serve often shoots real low when it hits the court, making it hard to return. I don't ace many people, but alot of the time their return goes over the baseline. Since I don't own a radar gun I'm only guessing at the speed, and even though 70 mph sounds slow, when I look at the 70 mph baseball pitches at the batting cages, those don't look slow at all.
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Just curious: what grip are you using to serve? When my flat serves were low and shooting it was because I was using a forehand grip which caused me to make contact with a waiter's wrist and impart a lot of underspin to the ball. This caused them to skid low, but also made it very hard to ever consistently get it to land in because the window over the net and the margin of error in angle I had to the ball at was so small.
 
ubel said:
Just curious: what grip are you using to serve? When my flat serves were low and shooting it was because I was using a forehand grip which caused me to make contact with a waiter's wrist and impart a lot of underspin to the ball. This caused them to skid low, but also made it very hard to ever consistently get it to land in because the window over the net and the margin of error in angle I had to the ball at was so small.
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For years I tried using the continental grip, but never felt comfortable with it. Recently I've been using a forehand grip. So it looks like you called that one. Somedays I can get it in all the time, other days I can't.
 
Most of my first serves will hit the fence at about knee height after landing in the service box. I use that as a gauge as to whether I got a good piece of the ball (compared to my normal first serves). If it bounces before hitting the fence, then I know it wasn't as fast as my usual serve. On the second serve, it varies. I have had a second serve hit the fence 7 feet up if I really got alot of pace and good kick to it. My second always has alot of topspin, but sometimes lacks pace and often doesn't hit the fence without bouncing first. Although it is just as effective as my first serve (as far as difficulty returning), I get some aces on my first serve, and mis-hit returns on my second serve.

I have no idea the speed of my first serves that hit the fence, but based on alot of talk here, I would guess its between 80-90.
 
Most big serves will hit the back fence on a standard court somewhere up in the middle of the fence, occasionally high enough to go into the little hole thing that you sometimes see on the wind bracer.

It has a lot to do with height. If you're not tall enough to have a sufficiently downward angle then you won't get the high bounce that can carry the ball that fast and far.
 
yemenmocha said:
It has a lot to do with height. If you're not tall enough to have a sufficiently downward angle then you won't get the high bounce that can carry the ball that fast and far.
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I completely agree. This is exactly what I was going to reply with. I'm surprised it took so many posts before someone pointed this out.
 
atomicx said:
I completely agree. This is exactly what I was going to reply with. I'm surprised it took so many posts before someone pointed this out.
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but im tall, about 190cm and my ball just seemed to skid across the court when i hit it flat, it bounced twice before hitting the fence but they were only about 15cm high bounces or something ridiculously low like that
 
EricW said:
Anyone know how fast it needs to go in order to go through the fence with a new ball?
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Depends on the spin, height of server, grip, distance to fence, wind factor...etc, etc, etc!

What I'm saying is, you might have a 100+mph serve that comes no where near the back fence on the first bounce.

Why are people so obsessed with the fence?! lol
 
jonline said:
Why are people so obsessed with the fence?! lol
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Because it's an objective fact. Without a radar gun it's hard to know the speed of the serve. But it's easy to see if it hit the fence or not. I've noticed some guys get the fence with a serve that doesn't look hard. So I've blamed my lack of height for why mine is so often short of the fence. But the other day I played with a guy 4 inches shorter than me, and he nailed the back fence. :sad:

When I posted this I wasn't sure if anyone else had ever thought about it hitting that fence.
 
Steady Eddy said:
Because it's an objective fact. Without a radar gun it's hard to know the speed of the serve. But it's easy to see if it hit the fence or not. I've noticed some guys get the fence with a serve that doesn't look hard. So I've blamed my lack of height for why mine is so often short of the fence. But the other day I played with a guy 4 inches shorter than me, and he nailed the back fence. :sad:

When I posted this I wasn't sure if anyone else had ever thought about it hitting that fence.
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Well...if you really can't stand not knowing how fast your serve is, why don't you buy a cheap radar gun? They have them for about 80 bucks (certain Bushnell models). I'd like to know how fast my serve is too, but I won't rely on a fence because it has too many variables.
 
If he's short and hitting the back fence, it's due to spin. Totally made up numbers, but u could prob hit the fence with 80mph topspin. And with totally flat, u might need 95.
 
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