Should Djokovic lose to Nadal in the final...

monfed

Banned
So, what are the ramifications?

The ramifications will be clear when the second week of Wimbledon rolls around. IF Nadal survives the first week, he'll win Wimbledon. So, that's 15 slams. Hard to picture a guy as determined as Nadal to stop at 15 when his lifelong ambition/dream has been to surpass Fed's slam count since day one. He's been icing the press, his opponents calling them the favourites to take attention off himself and in the process not have any pressure to chase his goals and underplaying the slam record to make it seem as if all he wants to do is merely be competitive. That directly contradicts the effort he puts every single year at RG , more than any other slam by some distance, even when he owns the RG record.

As regards Nole, he won't ever beat Nadal at RG again , esp not if he keeps playing to his FH instead of his BH, and certainly not on a hot sunny day like today.

Actually I think Nole will never beat Nadal in a slam again because -

1) Nadal will use the slice BH so Nole won't be able to use his tried n tested tactic of beating Nadal by camping on his BH all day which he did so effectively in 2011. Infact I noticed this disturbing pattern of play in today's final too. When Nadal sliced his BH, Nole missed his FH. Nole has severe trouble hitting his FH from slices, esp if they keep low.

2) Nole can't pin Nadal down on his FH wing with his laser CC BH anymore, because Nadal will fire his FH DTL.

Unless Nole stops going on mental walkabouts and plays CONSISTENT SUSTAINED sets of dogged tennis like in 2011, he's done winning slams. I think Nole is living up to his pre-2011 image of being the bridesmaid of the Nadal and Fed with 2011 being his magnum opus.


On a sidenote, I know Fed can't win everything, but he's gonna regret two mistakes -

1) Beating Nole at RG 2011. Biggest mistake of his career, the more Nadal wins, the more apparent this will be. I'm of the firm belief that this idiotic move will cost Fed his slam record. But I hope for the sake of tennis, that I'm proven wrong.

2) Losing slams like AO 09,USO 09, AO 05, but esp USO 09 and AO 05 when he was the firm favourite of winning them and his opponents weren't a BH abuser. This might prove to be his downfall, letting his opponents get away with slams when he had it all but covered. And this is the difference between Nadal and Fed, when Nadal has his opponent on the mat, he doesn't let him get away.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Yes, Nadal is getting the maximum out of his career, he has good chances to equal Federer, meanwhile I wonder how Djokovic will respond to such a loss.

1 out of 6 Slam finals won since AO 2012. Consistently winning lower tier events and being ranked 1 or 2 but just not getting it done in the Slams...

If he can bounce back from this psychologically and win another 2 Slams, I'd be deeply impressed (under assumptions such as Nadal doesn't have to take some 3 Slam sabbatical for injuries or whatever).

Federer's loss in the 2009 US Open to Del Potro is still probably the most annoying loss of his career at least from my perspective.
 
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Deleted member 3771

Guest
The ramifications are that both Fed and Djoko have established themselves in history as the goat's toughest competition by losing most of the era defining matches to Rafa.
 

monfed

Banned
Quite frankly I think the only thing that's gonna stop Nadal eclipsing Fed's slam record if he himself has a DRASTIC decline and by drastic I mean missing regulation FHs and netting his BHS or hitting them out more. I saw some signs of that in this match and in the clay season on the whole such as Barcelona, MC, Madrid.
 

monfed

Banned
The ramifications are that both Fed and Djoko have established themselves in history as the goat's toughest competition by losing most of the era defining matches to Rafa.

What a pathetic post. Seriously all you do is troll, what a petty little cretin you are.
 

President

Legend
If Nadal ends up winning Wimbledon, I think we can definitely say that this match today was a career defining moment for him. monfed is right, if Nadal had lost today I think that it would have been way too difficult for him to get to 17 slams. Now it looks tough, but very possible.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has only won majors outside Australia in his annus mirabilis of 2011.

He's in danger of stopping as a Tier 3 great, and not even reaching the levels of Agassi/Connors/Lendl on 8 slams and Tier 2 greatness. Impending fatherhood will no doubt be another distraction for his tennis career.

Best bet is that he finishes with a Lendl-like record (he and Lendl are the only greats of the Open Era with losing records in slams finals; 6-7 and 8-11 respectively).

That of course is not at all bad, yet some expected even greater for Nole. Sadly, they will be disappointed...
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
If Nadal ends up winning Wimbledon, I think we can definitely say that this match today was a career defining moment for him. monfed is right, if Nadal had lost today I think that it would have been way too difficult for him to get to 17 slams. Now it looks tough, but very possible.

As long as Rafa doesn't feel too content with his RG victory, which at least relatively speaking compared to previous years has come against the odds (though the odds were still on his side), and he's healthy and survives the first week, then yes he could do damage at Wimbledon.

I do think that's a danger though. I know Nadal is pretty greedy but this was a huge and emotional win for him. It will be interesting to see just how much he wants it come Wimbledon. Roger had no problems in 2009 though after his own emotional RG win and managed the Channel Slam.

If Nadal wins Wimbledon he'd have achieved the Channel Slam three times, equalling Bjorn Borg.
 

Antonio Puente

Hall of Fame
If Djoker doesn't win one of the next two slams, then it has the potential to snowball. By the time the AO rolls around, he would be going on two years without a slam. By that point, even he would have to be wondering: If I'm not winning slams, does it really matter if I beat Nadal in Beijing or Miami? Then it becomes more difficult to get up for those tournaments.
 

monfed

Banned
The biggest problem is that nobody on tour has been a consistent thorn in Nadal's flesh, Nole filled that role in 2011, yet Fed took a big giant dump on it in the RG 11 SF, rather than getting out of the way of the freak train from hell and just unleashing him on the clay beast when he was ripe for picking. That was the easiest time to lose it and nobody would've even questioned it. What an utter shame. Instead he tried being a hero. How can someone as talented and gifted as Fed make such an error? I guess Voltaire is right - Common sense is not so common!

From 2012, Nadal's basically had inexplicable losses to journeymen and timeouts from the tour. He hasn't really been owned by a rival which is why it seems that his march to 17 is inevitable. The big problem is that his moonballing(pardon me Nadal fans for using this highly offensive term) is near impossible to deal with for the majority of the tour, and even Nole isn't minimising the damage.

I often wonder when Fed himself doesn't care about GOAT and the slam record, then why should his fans sweat it? Fed has on numerous occasions put down Nole when in practicality he should be giving Nole his full support AND also that you can't compare eras. The latter is logical, but the former is just plain absurd.
 
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bullfan

Legend
It will be a blow no doubt. But Novak has been here plenty of times before. He has stated that this is Nadals house. He does not freak out and go into hibernation after big losses. He will be at the Boodles playing for a Wimbledon title you can be sure of that.

Boodles is a class based tourny in England, and yet that's where Novak wore tassels..... Pretty much sums up the tourney and all involved.
 

Matt H.

Professional
I thought the Miami match was a tell because Nadal truly does want the Miami crown. He fought hard for it and lost. I thought it might have spelled trouble for him today.

Alas, it did not. Being a set up and 5 all in the 2nd, it appeared that the moment got too big for Novak.

From a pure tactical standpoint it looks like Novak's shots outpower and dictate against Nadal. However, the mental game is what puts Rafa over the edge.

An era of potential 3 career grand slam winning men, and Rafa has a DOMINANT head to head in the slams against the other 2. If he had beaten Stan this year, today would have marked him as the GOAT and pushed Fed aside. Even at 15 vs. 17.
 

monfed

Banned
I thought the Miami match was a tell because Nadal truly does want the Miami crown. He fought hard for it and lost. I thought it might have spelled trouble for him today.

Alas, it did not. Being a set up and 5 all in the 2nd, it appeared that the moment got too big for Novak.

From a pure tactical standpoint it looks like Novak's shots outpower and dictate against Nadal. However, the mental game is what puts Rafa over the edge.

An era of potential 3 career grand slam winning men, and Rafa has a DOMINANT head to head in the slams against the other 2. If he had beaten Stan this year, today would have marked him as the GOAT and pushed Fed aside. Even at 15 vs. 17.

Nice try, but no seriously you are out of your mind.
 

Matt H.

Professional
Nice try, but no seriously you are out of your mind.

out of my mind? please.

you joined this forum 5 weeks ago and have 1180 posts? What could you possibly know about anything if you're posting in a forum all day. lol
 
The biggest problem is that nobody on tour has been a consistent thorn in Nadal's flesh, Nole filled that role in 2011, yet Fed took a big giant dump on it in the RG 11 SF, rather than getting out of the way of the freak train from hell and just unleashing him on the clay beast when he was ripe for picking. That was the easiest time to lose it and nobody would've even questioned it. What an utter shame. Instead he tried being a hero. How can someone as talented and gifted as Fed make such an error? I guess Voltaire is right - Common sense is not so common!

From 2012, Nadal's basically had inexplicable losses to journeymen and timeouts from the tour. He hasn't really been owned by a rival which is why it seems that his march to 17 is inevitable. The big problem is that his moonballing(pardon me Nadal fans for using this highly offensive term) is near impossible to deal with for the majority of the tour, and even Nole isn't minimising the damage.

I often wonder when Fed himself doesn't care about GOAT and the slam record, then why should his fans sweat it? Fed has on numerous occasions put down Nole when in practicality he should be giving Nole his full support AND also that you can't compare eras. The latter is logical, but the former is just plain absurd.

because Federer -- the great champion as he is -- is an honorable man who always tries his darn hardest to win. every match. any match. his life does not center on "GOAThood" or "Making sure i am greater than Nadal". his life is about playing tennis to the best of his abilities, taking care of his family, and being a responsible member of society. See the difference between your idol and yourself?
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
nadal has won 5 GS titles outside RG.... thats not good enough to be considered GOAT.

Lets see how he will do in Wimbledon in a few weeks. Probably will fake another injury cause he simply is to restricted
 

monfed

Banned
out of my mind? please.

you joined this forum 5 weeks ago and have 1180 posts? What could you possibly know about anything if you're posting in a forum all day. lol

I've been on this forum for a lot longer than 5 weeks, but your flaming doesn't deserve a detailed response so I'll leave it at that.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
. He hasn't really been owned by a rival which is why it seems that his march to 17 is inevitable. T.

You're trolling, right ?
4 straight losses to Nole, the last one in the Rome final, aren't enough for you ?
Today was probably his last hurrah, helped by a mysteriously insipid Nole.
The expression of relief at the end of the match said it all.

He barely could serve today. As far as i'm concerned, he's done.
Back problems tend to aggravate, not recede.


Unless Rafa takes again 6 months off, and comebacks for the clay season next year, i don't see him winning another slam.
 

monfed

Banned
You're trolling, right ?
4 straight losses to Nole, the last one in the Rome final, aren't enough for you ?
Today was probably his last hurrah, helped by a mysteriously insipid Nole.
The expression of relief at the end of the match said it all.

He barely could serve today. As far as i'm concerned, he's done.
Back problems tend to aggravate, not recede.


Unless Rafa takes again 6 months off, and comebacks for the clay season next year, i don't see him winning another slam.

And who won their slam encounters? :lol:
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
The biggest problem is that nobody on tour has been a consistent thorn in Nadal's flesh, Nole filled that role in 2011, yet Fed took a big giant dump on it in the RG 11 SF, rather than getting out of the way of the freak train from hell and just unleashing him on the clay beast when he was ripe for picking. That was the easiest time to lose it and nobody would've even questioned it. What an utter shame. Instead he tried being a hero. How can someone as talented and gifted as Fed make such an error? I guess Voltaire is right - Common sense is not so common!

I never understand why you're so convinced that Nole would've beaten Nadal in the RG 2011 F. Yes, yes, I know about the great run he was on and beating Nadal in best-of-3 finals on clay, but that's not the same as slaying the bull on Philippe Chatrier, as we've seen time and again.

Also, how could Fed have tanked the match without it being obvious?


I often wonder when Fed himself doesn't care about GOAT and the slam record, then why should his fans sweat it?

An important question.

There is an aesthetic reason for not wanting Nadal as GOAT, I feel.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Maybe Federer did Nole a favour by winning that 2011 RG semi, or perhaps Nole would be sat at like 3 Slams.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
And who won their slam encounters? :lol:

Rafa only won today because Nole couldn't bring 75% of his A-game.

He got lucky; the same way Fed got lucky in that 2007 fifth set at Wimbledon.

Again , the expression of relief at the end of the match said it all.
Rafa usually ends his finals by a jump/fist pumping celebration; instead, he cried.

Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
AO is Rafa's worst slam. I guess there always has to be 1.

Cunning response. ;)


Nole is in a Slam final slump. One can say, he's not as good as Rafa and is supposed to lose these Slam finals, but how about the two consecutive losses to Murray that were thrown in, including the tame Wimbledon effort?
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Cunning response. ;)


Nole is in a Slam final slump. One can say, he's not as good as Rafa and is supposed to lose these Slam finals, but how about the two consecutive losses to Murray that were thrown in, including the tame Wimbledon effort?
Djoko is turning out as a master of the best of 3 but a player lacking mental and physical endurance in best of 5. Still, he's done well to be so consistent in slams during the last few years. I mean he's made all slam finals since USO 2010 except for 1 semi ar RG 2011 and 2013, 1 semi at W 2012 and 1 semi at AO 2014. That's quite phenomenal for consistency. I think it makes his lack of success at crunch time even more frustrating actually.
 

monfed

Banned
I never understand why you're so convinced that Nole would've beaten Nadal in the RG 2011 F. Yes, yes, I know about the great run he was on and beating Nadal in best-of-3 finals on clay, but that's not the same as slaying the bull on Philippe Chatrier, as we've seen time and again.

Also, how could Fed have tanked the match without it being obvious?

But Nadal isn't invincible at PC because he has lost to Soderling there and 2011 RG was just 2 years after 2009 and Nadal was still at earthly 5 titles.

Second as far as Nole beating Ralph at RG being the obvious choice here are my reasons -

1) Nole was in devastating form. And I mean his BH was on fire, his DTL BH was doing severe damage to Nadal and Nole just wasn't missing. Nole's FH had a certain sting to it which has been lacking ever since.

2) Nole was FIRMLY in Nadal's head, he had dismantled him in two consecutive MS finals without dropping a set. Unheard of for Nadal on clay.
Watch this to refresh your memory and pay close attention to Nole's BH and his overall form, its leagues above his current form -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWkozzN161I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0dDL0Jzknk

3) Nadal's form on clay that year was at it's lowest compared to his previous years. Even at RG on PC, he was taken to 5 against Isner, should've dropped a set v/s Andujar and just was struggling with his game. He wasn't hitting his FH with anywhere near the venom he is these days.

4) Lighter babolat balls made it easier to serve and finish rallies which would've made life easier for Nole to hit through the court.

5) Nole would've used his mental edge gained from those 2 consec clay defeats in the final and although Nole had lost to Nadal in previous editions of RG, he didnt have a loss as bad as RG 13 SF and those previous losses were v/s pre-prime Nole.

6) Overcast conditions on finals day. Fed even said that after beating Nole that it was like a birthday gift to Nadal and Naddies were cheering from rooftops for Fed's victory, again an indication of how everyone they were desperate for Nadal to avoid Nole because it was certain defeat.

An important question.

There is an aesthetic reason for not wanting Nadal as GOAT, I feel.

Yes I see what you mean, Nadal feeds off UEs from his opponent to win, while Fed plays positive tennis to win so it's better for Fed to be the GOAT. And yes Nadal's game is hideous so it would be bad if he leads the slam record of our beautiful sport.
 
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agreed

Banned
Of course he lacks French open flair and 'genius' of fedal.
Those nadal moon balls and 30 shot fedal ball bashings were the greatest things in life....not.


he will still overtake nadal in much more slams and little things like Olympics, Davis cup, masters cup and masters1000. Fedal had many title droughts and luck in slams just like when Novak gave up in 2006, 2008 and 2010.
Draws were easy and cheap the last 9 years for fedal.

Today, Nadal was a bore with his fake apology after a bloated Novak gifted him double faults like he did in the 2007 us open, 2013 French open and 2013 us open.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
AO is Rafa's worst slam. I guess there always has to be 1.

Apart from when Nadal won the Australian Open in 2009, it's been the tournament where he has had the most terrible bad luck.

2006: Misses tournament through a foot injury

2007: Favourite against Gonzalez in the quarter finals, but gets blitzed

2008: Favourite against Tsonga in the semi finals, but gets arguably the biggest beatdown of his career

2010: Goes a break up against Murray in the first 2 sets of their quarter final. Loses both sets, and then injures his knee early in the third set, forcing his retirement

2011: Had the chance to become the first man to win 4 majors in a row since Laver in 1969. Goes into the tournament having acquired a stomach virus in Doha. Gets to the quarter finals against Ferrer, and pulls his hamstring early in the match. He basically walks through the rest of the match

2012: Leads Djokovic 4-2 in the fifth set in the final, and loses

2013: Misses tournament through a stomach virus, following a long period out with a knee injury

2014: Has the chance to become the first man of the open era to win all 4 majors at least twice each, but gets pummelled by Wawrinka and acquires a back injury.
 

President

Legend
^Would not call 2007, 2008, or 2010 bad luck. He just got blitzed in all 3 matches (he was already dead in the water against Murray before the injury). 2012 is debatable as well, I would call that a choke rather than any kind of outside misfortune.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Mustard: 2011 was the biggest disappointment for me. Pro sport actually works well in general to remind you that life is not a fairy tale and your capacity for survival depends on your ability to handle tough blows. Boy, Nadal had his dose of those.
 

Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
Mustard: 2011 was the biggest disappointment for me. Pro sport actually works well in general to remind you that life is not a fairy tale and your capacity for survival depends on your ability to handle tough blows. Boy, Nadal had his dose of those.

that's not true

some people go through life in a fairy tale

rich billionaires, people born into wealth, etc.

it's not fair but whatever
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
So on "just" four occasions a virus or an injury stops Nadal from succes in Australia, at what point we would start to consider the possibility that some of these viruses and injuries were not there?
 

eldanger25

Hall of Fame
Could be a meaningful loss, to say the least. Can't see him coming from behind against Nadal at RG in any future matches after these last few losses - he'll need to front-run, take the first two or two of the first three sets in future encounters, if that's even possible.

The RG crowd seemed to sense a window was closing for him - hence the applause/appreciation at the end there.

I still think Novak wins 1-2 titles in Paris, I just don't think it'll be via defeating Nadal. And, knowing the calibre of sportsman Novak is, I think it'll rankle him a bit if that comes to pass.
 

namelessone

Legend
Apart from when Nadal won the Australian Open in 2009, it's been the tournament where he has had the most terrible bad luck.

2006: Misses tournament through a foot injury

2007: Favourite against Gonzalez in the quarter finals, but gets blitzed

2008: Favourite against Tsonga in the semi finals, but gets arguably the biggest beatdown of his career

2010: Goes a break up against Murray in the first 2 sets of their quarter final. Loses both sets, and then injures his knee early in the third set, forcing his retirement

2011: Had the chance to become the first man to win 4 majors in a row since Laver in 1969. Goes into the tournament having acquired a stomach virus in Doha. Gets to the quarter finals against Ferrer, and pulls his hamstring early in the match. He basically walks through the rest of the match

2012: Leads Djokovic 4-2 in the fifth set in the final, and loses

2013: Misses tournament through a stomach virus, following a long period out with a knee injury

2014: Has the chance to become the first man of the open era to win all 4 majors at least twice each, but gets pummelled by Wawrinka and acquires a back injury.

Only 2006,2011,2013 and 2014 should be here. These are injuries that either cause him to miss the tourney or hampered him big time during the tourney itself. The others are just losses. In 2012 he was also lucky that Djokovic couldn't close out the 4th set. It goes both ways.
 
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