Should kick serve ball toss be overhead AND inside the court? (Oxymoron)

[TimeToPlaySets]

Kick serve ball toss should be over your head. Yet, I am being told my ball toss needs to be more into the court, so I can move towards the target. Is that a valid statement? What should the DEPTH of the kick serve toss be? If never hit, should it land on baseline (your head), or land inside the baseline (NOT over your head anymore)

 

[Bender]

Behind your head: assumes your chest and head are facing the side fence. For a righty, 'behind your head' means tossing to the left. For a lefty, it means tossing to the right.
Inside the court: literally in front of the baseline.

Put these two together, and tossing the ball overhead and inside the court for a righty means tossing almost 45 degrees to the left; 45 degrees to the right for a lefty.

Edit: @Chas Tennis has provided the perfect picture illustrating what I mean.

 

[SinjinCooper]

You are left handed, so a kick toss (viewed from behind) will typically be further to the right than your first serve's toss (thus, "more over your head"), but still somewhat into the court.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Toly composite picture from rare Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead camera views.

 

[snvplayer]

If you toss into the court, so it lands inside the baseline, then you need to use your legs and body to get under the ball so that you can still hit up to impart topspin on the ball. Kinda of like Lleyton Hewitt's motion since he tosses very far into the court. Probably more difficult motion.

It will be easier to hit a kick serve with a toss that lands on your head or on the baseline.

Unfortunately, there is no right answer. Start experimenting and find what works for you.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Do high speed videos of high level kick serves show the head moving forward between the toss release and impact?

 

[Chadillac]

Kick serve ball toss should be over your head. Yet, I am being told my ball toss needs to be more into the court, so I can move towards the target. Is that a valid statement? What should the DEPTH of the kick serve toss be? If never hit, should it land on baseline (your head), or land inside the baseline (NOT over your head anymore)

It depends on the bounce you want. Throwing it more into the court makes it penetrate more. An overhead toss gives a more vertical bounce, thats why you see pro's using them on the 2nd, very safe, just have to try harder.

I havent seen you serve, but if that is the recommendation your motion doesnt move you into the court. How far do you land in on the flat? Im thinking on that one you still not breaking the baseline on the boomer.

It comes down to a balance in the end, how far you move into the court with your body and where you toss. Two variables, but multiply when working together.

Rafter for example had a penetrating kick serve, edberg had a high bouncer. Rafter was more physical so didnt need the additional time to close the net. Dif mph but equally effective for what they are trying todo

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Not really an oxymoron at all. For a right-handed server, the images below for a topspin serve should help to answer the OP questions. Keep in mind that the head/body moves from its original position so that the head is pretty much under the ball at contact for the topspin/kick serve. The toss IS forward of the baseline but not quite as far forward as other serves. (Note also the lower contact point relative to the court lights in the background).

​

The images below show the left-right position of the ball relative to the head/body. Difficult to judge the relative heights of the contact in this series of images since position of the baseline (and net) is not the same in these photos for each serve type.

 

[SinjinCooper]

It depends on the bounce you want. Throwing it more into the court makes it penetrate more. An overhead toss gives a more vertical bounce, thats why you see pro's using them on the 2nd, very safe, just have to try harder.

I havent seen you serve, but if that is the recommendation your motion doesnt move you into the court. How far do you land in on the flat? Im thinking on that one you still not breaking the baseline on the boomer.

It comes down to a balance in the end, how far you move into the court with your body and where you toss. Two variables, but multiply when working together.

Rafter for example had a penetrating kick serve, edberg had a high bouncer. Rafter was more physical so didnt need the additional time to close the net. Dif mph but equally effective for what they are trying todo

Edberg and Rafter both tossed well into the court. I have never seen a good server who did not, even in the modern era where some of these guys have less than no interest in following the ball to the net.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

interesting article i stumbled across that made me think of this thread:
http://www.optimumtennis.net/tennis-spin-serve.htm

the interesting part i learned was that the author distinguishes between kick and twist (i always thought of them as the same).. but after reading the article, they are different, despite similar/same motion (tomato/tomatoe)
for me, i don't think i have the necessary rhs to hit a twist (which i always just categorized as a "very good kicker" )

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

interesting article i stumbled across that made me think of this thread:
http://www.optimumtennis.net/tennis-spin-serve.htm

the interesting part i learned was that the author distinguishes between kick and twist (i always thought of them as the same).. but after reading the article, they are different, despite similar/same motion (tomato/tomatoe)
for me, i don't think i have the necessary rhs to hit a twist (which i always just categorized as a "very good kicker" )

Many decent sources do use the terms, kick and twist, interchangeably. But I prefer to make a distinction. I take the twist (or American Twist) to be a subset of the more inclusive class of kick serves. Kick is a more generic, somewhat ambiguous terminology. While (nearly) all kick serves have a pretty decent amount of topspin to make them kick up, twist serves also have a relatively strong component of spiral spin that will cause them to radically change direction as they come up from the bounce. Many kick serves will change direction somewhat on the bounce. Some will have a modest directional change and may or may not be classified as twist serves. Most will agree, however, that a serve bounces in an "opposite" direction is a definitely a twist serve, This serves curves one way in flight prior to the bounce, due to a slice/sidespin component, but then will bounce in the opposite direction due to a relatively strong spiral spin component.

Types of kick serves can include: topspin, topspin-slice and twist. This is not an exact taxonomy. These classifications merely serve to indicate relative amounts of sidespin and spiral spin that are present -- and their effect on the trajectory and bounce direction of the serve. All will usually have relatively strong amount of topspin so that the incident angle of the bounce is relatively steep and results in an upward kick. The spin to (forward) speed ratio is fairly high to cause this upward kick action.

However, many players will hit something of a "lob" kick serve. It might not have a very strong topspin component but it kicks up because the serve it hit with a very high arcing trajectory which results in an upward kick.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Many decent sources do use the terms, kick and twist, interchangeably. But I prefer to make a distinction. I take the twist (or American Twist) to be a subset of the more inclusive class of kick serves. Kick is a more generic, somewht ambiguous terminology. While all kick serves have a pretty decent amount of topspin to make them kick up, twist serves also have a relatively strong component of spiral spin that cause them to radically change direction as they come up from the bounce. Many kick serves will change direction somewhat on the bounce. Some will have a modest directional change and may or may not be classified as twist serves. Most will agree, however, that a serve bounces in an "opposite" direction is a defintely a twist serve, This serves curves one way in flight prior to the bounce, due to a slice/sidespin component, but then bounce in the opposite direction due to a relatively strong spiral spin component.

Types of kick serves can include: topspin, topspin-slice and twist. This is not an exact taxonomy. These classifications merely serve to indicate relative amounts of sidespin and spiral spin that are present -- and their effect on the trajectory and bounce direction of the serve. All will usually have relatively strong amount of topspin so that the incident angle of the bounce is relatively steep and results in an upward kick. The spin to (forward) speed ratio is fairly high to cause an upward kick action.

However, many players will hit something of a "lob" kick serve. It might not have a very strong topspin component but it kicks up because the serve it hit with a very high arcing trajectory which results in an upward kick.

agreed.
but the distinction of the the twist having a (from my perspective) right->left (slice) movement, before "kicking" from left->right, is a significant different in behavior (from my kick serve)...
my kick serve, is a topspin serve (it dives), with a variable "kick" of left->right
my "kick" does not have a right to left slice movement prior to bouncing... or it will have a right to left slice movement, but won't really "kick" (still valuable, ie. folks expect it to keep drifting to my left - vs. bounce "straight"), and i think that's because i don't have enough racquet head speed to both make the serve move right->left, and have enough rpm to also make it kick back left->right.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Thanks, the various images helped.
I will practice tossing a little more into the court.
That will force me to push forward, as well.

Point of contact for kick looks overhead, but not behind it.
Point of contact for slice looks like above hitting shoulder.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Many decent sources do use the terms, kick and twist, interchangeably. But I prefer to make a distinction. I take the twist (or American Twist) to be a subset of the more inclusive class of kick serves. Kick is a more generic, somewhat ambiguous terminology. While (nearly) all kick serves have a pretty decent amount of topspin to make them kick up, twist serves also have a relatively strong component of spiral spin that will cause them to radically change direction as they come up from the bounce. Many kick serves will change direction somewhat on the bounce. Some will have a modest directional change and may or may not be classified as twist serves. Most will agree, however, that a serve bounces in an "opposite" direction is a definitely a twist serve, This serves curves one way in flight prior to the bounce, due to a slice/sidespin component, but then will bounce in the opposite direction due to a relatively strong spiral spin component.

Types of kick serves can include: topspin, topspin-slice and twist. This is not an exact taxonomy. These classifications merely serve to indicate relative amounts of sidespin and spiral spin that are present -- and their effect on the trajectory and bounce direction of the serve. All will usually have relatively strong amount of topspin so that the incident angle of the bounce is relatively steep and results in an upward kick. The spin to (forward) speed ratio is fairly high to cause this upward kick action.

However, many players will hit something of a "lob" kick serve. It might not have a very strong topspin component but it kicks up because the serve it hit with a very high arcing trajectory which results in an upward kick.

Flat
Slice
Topspin
Kick
Topslice

That's my preferred nomenclature, with all sideways-leaping topspin serves out to the server's forehand side falling under the heading "Kick," and all straight-bouncing ones under "Topspin." "Topslice" seems to be self-explanatory to almost everyone I encounter.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I just refer to 3 types: Flat, Slice, Topslice (kick). I think its hard to hit any topspin serve without some degree of slice on it. In all cases of topslice the amount of sidespin, topspin and spiral spin forces will vary. Some may be mostly topspin (the basic kick serve), some may be mostly spiral spin (The twist serve as some call is). But they are largely all hit with the same motion and it's mostly RHS and toss position that determine how good the kicker is.

 

[jm1980]

I just refer to 3 types: Flat, Slice, Topslice (kick). I think its hard to hit any topspin serve without some degree of slice on it. In all cases of topslice the amount of sidespin, topspin and spiral spin forces will vary. Some may be mostly topspin (the basic kick serve), some may be mostly spiral spin (The twist serve as some call is). But they are largely all hit with the same motion and it's mostly RHS and toss position that determine how good the kicker is.

Calling reverse twist and pure topspin serves "topsplice" is a misnomer IMO. These serves should have no slice at all in them

 

[SinjinCooper]

Calling reverse twist and pure topspin serves "topsplice" is a misnomer IMO. These serves should have no slice at all in them

But I DO think that Flat/Slice/Topspin is probably adequate, with the continuum from Topslice -> Topspin -> Kick/Twist all being topspin-heavy serves whose specific spin depends largely on toss location.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Calling reverse twist and pure topspin serves "topsplice" is a misnomer IMO. These serves should have no slice at all in them

I don't see too many "Pure Topspin" serves. Hitting with only a vertical force on a ball is pretty damn hard. There's almost always some degree of sidespin imparted if you are doing the motion correctly.
I am not sure of what this reverse twist serve is you talk of.

That being said: calling a flat serve a flat serve is probably a misnomer for most top level serves. Almost all their flat serves have topspin, unlike my flat serve where you can probably read the logo on the ball.

 

[jm1980]

I don't see too many "Pure Topspin" serves. Hitting with only a vertical force on a ball is pretty damn hard. There's almost always some degree of sidespin imparted if you are doing the motion correctly.
I am not sure of what this reverse twist serve is you talk of.

Pure topspin: bounces straight up
Reverse twist: curves like a slice serve in the air, but bounces in the opposite direction after the bounce (for a right hander that would be curves to the left in the air, then bounces to the right). Sometimes called American twist, or simply "kick"

That being said: calling a flat serve a flat serve is probably a misnomer for most top level serves. Almost all their flat serves have topspin, unlike my flat serve where you can probably read the logo on the ball.

You'd be hard pressed to find a high level player (5.0+) who serves flat, because it's a bad idea

Sampras averaged about 2500 RPM on his first serve

 

[SinjinCooper]

I don't see too many "Pure Topspin" serves. Hitting with only a vertical force on a ball is pretty damn hard. There's almost always some degree of sidespin imparted if you are doing the motion correctly.
I am not sure of what this reverse twist serve is you talk of.

That being said: calling a flat serve a flat serve is probably a misnomer for most top level serves. Almost all their flat serves have topspin, unlike my flat serve where you can probably read the logo on the ball.

To be sure. Flat and topspin are relative when discussing good serves, and more descriptive of the swing path than the actual spin of the ball (or lack thereof).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Calling reverse twist and pure topspin serves "topsplice" is a misnomer IMO. These serves should have no slice at all in them

Note that a reverse twist is really a novelty serve and is not the same thing as a conventional twist (or American twist) serve.

Flat
Slice
Topspin
Kick
Topslice

That's my preferred nomenclature, with all sideways-leaping topspin serves out to the server's forehand side falling under the heading "Kick," and all straight-bouncing ones under "Topspin." "Topslice" seems to be self-explanatory to almost everyone I encounter.

I was really only considering types of kick serves in my post. Flat and pure Slice serves don't kick.

Note that many sources use the terms topspin serve & kick serve interchangeably. However, in my mind, a topspin serve might not "kick" if the spin-to-speed ratio is not high enuff (or if the speed-to-spin ratio is too high). Likewise, some topspin-slice serves will kick, some will not.

From the old Operation Doubles web site (RIP Kathy Krajco):

"I use the term KICK serve as meaning any serve with heavy topspin on it so that it has the characteristic bounce in which the court seems to kick the ball at your opponent, kicking high with a long leaping bound. Two spin serves have such a bounce - the topspin serve and the twist serve. The bounce of the twist serve also breaks rightward on the bounce, so it isn\'t exactly the same as the bounce of a topspin serve. Some players use the term KICK only for the twist serve."

http://web.archive.org/web/20071023235817/www.operationdoubles.com/how_hit_twist_serve_tennis.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_(tennis)#Types

 

[SinjinCooper]

Note that a reverse twist is really a novelty serve and is not the same thing as a conventional twist (or American twist) serve.



I was really only considering types of kick serves in my post. Flat and pure Slice serves don't kick.

Note that many sources use the terms topspin serve and kick serve interchangeably. However, in my mind, a topspin serve might not "kick" if the spin-to-speed ratio is not high enough (or if the speed-to-spin ratio is too high). Likewise, some topspin-slice serves will kick, some will not.

From the old Operation Doubles web site (RIP Kathy Krajco):

"I use the term KICK serve as meaning any serve with heavy topspin on it so that it has the characteristic bounce in which the court seems to kick the ball at your opponent, kicking high with a long leaping bound. Two spin serves have such a bounce - the topspin serve and the twist serve. The bounce of the twist serve also breaks rightward on the bounce, so it isn\'t exactly the same as the bounce of a topspin serve. Some players use the term KICK only for the twist serve."

http://web.archive.org/web/20071023235817/www.operationdoubles.com/how_hit_twist_serve_tennis.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_(tennis)#Types

When asked, flat and slice pretty much tell the story on their own. Kick I describe as kicking off to the right-hander's backhand (assuming it's a RH player asking). Topspin I describe as, "Just roll it in." Topslice I describe as, "Just roll it in with a little slice."

 

[jm1980]

Note that a reverse twist is really a novelty serve and is not the same thing as a conventional twist (or American twist) serve.

I've always used "reverse twist" and "American twist" interchangeably

 

[shindemac]

Topspin serve is an invention of this forum. I started using it because as you can see in this thread and every thread before, any mention of the name "kick" will derail the thread and cause countless posts for everyone to explain what "kick" means to them. I thought using topspin serve will solve this problem, which it did (if you check the archives).

But now new problems were created. Older players will know of this serve as "kick" and ask what is topspin serve, I've never heard of it. While newer players / beginners will ask what is "kick", did you just make it up cause I've never heard of it on this forum before. Now it has a secondary meaning that I did not intend, because topspin serve and kick serve were supposed to mean the same thing. Now I see that some people think of kick serve and topspin serves as different serves, so it makes it doubly confusing. Since there is no dictionary of meaning, people had to figure out what things mean by themselves, so of course topspin and kick had to mean something different to them (but it means the same to me).

In short, topspin and kick serve mean the same thing originally, but now can mean different serves if you so choose.

 

[coolschreiber]

Yes into the court as much as possible without sacrificing safety.
When I first learnt the kicker it I used to toss is parallel to baseline and got away with it. Plus I was so excited I learnt the kick serve lol. But when I started playing guys who took service returns seriously they murdered my second serve. So I started tossing it in a little to get some pace as well, learnt it the hard way ..... sigh

 

[Chotobaka]

Edberg and Rafter both tossed well into the court. I have never seen a good server who did not, even in the modern era where some of these guys have less than no interest in following the ball to the net.

Two of my favorite players and definitely guys to learn from. The root of their style of toss is the fact that they were kicking it on first serves, too. These guys were putting more pace on their serves than today's typically weak, safe and often predicable second serve kickers.

At the mere mortal level, this is a very viable tactic for anyone who cannot blow the ball past their opponents with their first serve (especially skilled aging players who have lost a little juice on their serve). Kicking the ball, going to the body, and generally mixing up placement, forces opponents to move and keeps them out of rhythm.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I've always used "reverse twist" and "American twist" interchangeably

Your usage of the term, reverse twist, would appear to be redundant since reverse and twist would seem to imply the same thing.

The American twist serve seems to be an older name for today's twist serve -- that is, a conventional twist version of the kick serve. The American twist was developed/introduced in the late 19th or early 20th century. As i mentioned previously, the reverse twist is a specialty or novelty serve that is not commonly used. It could be the same thing or a variation of the reverse slice serve. I recall seeing a few videos of these reverse serves quite a while back. Some no longer appear to be available but here is one example:

EDIT: The Wiki link I posted previously also refers to reverse versions of slice and twist serves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_(tennis)#Slice.2Freverse_slice

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Topspin serve is an invention of this forum. I started using it because as you can see in this thread and every thread before, any mention of the name "kick" will derail the thread and cause countless posts for everyone to explain what "kick" means to them. I thought using topspin serve will solve this problem, which it did (if you check the archives).

But now new problems were created. Older players will know of this serve as "kick" and ask what is topspin serve, I've never heard of it. While newer players / beginners will ask what is "kick", did you just make it up cause I've never heard of it on this forum before. Now it has a secondary meaning that I did not intend, because topspin serve and kick serve were supposed to mean the same thing. Now I see that some people think of kick serve and topspin serves as different serves, so it makes it doubly confusing. Since there is no dictionary of meaning, people had to figure out what things mean by themselves, so of course topspin and kick had to mean something different to them (but it means the same to me).

In short, topspin and kick serve mean the same thing originally, but now can mean different serves if you so choose.

I have seen the the Topspin serve terminology used by quite a few sources outside of these forum walls. Tomaz Mencinger (FeelTennis) uses it in his articles/videos. You can see that usage in the his images in my post #8 above. Also listed 2 sources in post #21 that uses this terminology.

Operation Doubles was a very well respected source in tennis forums a decade ago. Sadly, it's author, Kathy Krajco, passed away in 2008 and her family took down the OD site some time after her passing. Kathy, categorized the Topspin as 1 of 2 types of kick serves (the other being the Twist serve). Jeff Cooper (About Sports), another respected source, used the same taxonomy that Kathy does. He classifies the Topspin serve as 1 of 2 types of kick serves:

http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/servetopspinsbs.htm

 

[SinjinCooper]

ETA: Don't do this. Really hard on the elbow.

 

[Chotobaka]

Your usage of the term, reverse twist, would appear to be redundant since reverse and twist would seem to imply the same thing.

The American twist serve seems to be an older name for today's twist serve -- that is, a conventional twist version of the kick serve. The American twist was developed/introduced in the late 19th or early 20th century. As i mentioned previously, the reverse twist is a specialty or novelty serve that is not commonly used. It could be the same thing or a variation of the reverse slice serve. I recall seeing a few videos of these reverse serves quite a while back. Some no longer appear to be available but here is one example:

My recollection of the difference between a conventional kick serve and the American twist was the ball's extreme directional change on the bounce and more contortion of the body being required to execute properly. Using the word "novelty" is being kind in reference to the serve shown in the video.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

ETA: Don't do this. Really hard on the elbow.

And here is a reverse serve from Tursunov in a Hopman Cup match:

 

[shindemac]

I have seen the the Topspin serve terminology used by quite a few sources outside of these forum walls. Tomaz Mencinger (FeelTennis) uses it in his articles/videos. You can see that usage in the his images in my post #8 above. Also listed 2 sources in post #21 that uses this terminology.

Operation Doubles was a very well respected source in tennis forums a decade ago. Sadly, it's author, Kathy Krajco, passed away in 2008 and her family took down the OD site some time after her passing. Kathy, categorized the Topspin as 1 of 2 types of kick serves (the other being the Twist serve). Jeff Cooper (About Sports), another respected source, used the same taxonomy that Kathy does. He classifies the Topspin serve as 1 of 2 types of kick serves:

http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/servetopspinsbs.htm

Yes, of course. I don't know the first usage of the term topspin serve. What I mean is that the usage of the term became popular on this forum, then it had a life of its own. For a few years, the term topspin serve was used almost exclusively instead of kick serve on this forum, so much so that some players on here first doubted whether the term "kick" serve existed or was invented by me. I hadn't realized that the younger or newer players learned tennis from this forum, and was shocked anyone had not heard of kick serve before. I thought everyone knew kick serve and topspin serve meant the same thing.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yes, of course. I don't know the first usage of the term topspin serve. What I mean is that the usage of the term became popular on this forum, then it had a life of its own. For a few years, the term topspin serve was used almost exclusively instead of kick serve on this forum, so much so that some players on here first doubted whether the term "kick" serve existed or was invented by me. I hadn't realized that the younger or newer players learned tennis from this forum, and was shocked anyone had not heard of kick serve before. I thought everyone knew kick serve and topspin serve meant the same thing.

I recall references to flat, slice and American twist serves back in the early 1970s. Somewhere along the line, don't recall when, I was hearing & seeing references to spin serves and and topspin-slice serves. But not so much about topspin serves per se. Don't recall any mentions of kick serves until some time in the 1990s. As usage of the term kick serve became common it seemed to a bit confusing or ambiguous. Some used the term as a synonym for the old American twist serve while others appeared to be using it for a larger class of spin serves that were characterized by some sort of upward kick.

After a while, it appeared that some were referring to topspin serves while others referred to kick serves. Many started to use these terms interchangeably but it wasn't clear if the twist serve was included in this or was some sort of variation. There were also many who used kick and twist serve interchangeably. About 12-15 years ago, the terminology started to gel for me. The kick serve seemed to refer to a general class of serves that was often sub-categorized into 2 or 3 different types: Topspin, Twist and, sometimes, Topspin-Slice (or Slice Topspin). Chris Lewit talks about 3 kick serve variation as do I (but his terminology is slightly different for that 3rd type of kick).

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/classiclessons/chris_lewit/keys_to_the_kick/keys_to_the_kick_page1.html

 

[Dartagnan64]

I think trying to tell an amateur to do different serves off the same toss is tantamount to failure. The rec player needs all the help he can get to serve well since he doesn't have the time to groove serves in this work-a-day world. So different tosses (left, right, middle) help getting the racquet motion moving the right way.

No matter the toss, however, the ball should always be struck beyond the baseline to provided added pace.

 

[Friedman Whip]

Your usage of the term, reverse twist, would appear to be redundant since reverse and twist would seem to imply the same thing.

The American twist serve seems to be an older name for today's twist serve -- that is, a conventional twist version of the kick serve. The American twist was developed/introduced in the late 19th or early 20th century. As i mentioned previously, the reverse twist is a specialty or novelty serve that is not commonly used. It could be the same thing or a variation of the reverse slice serve. I recall seeing a few videos of these reverse serves quite a while back. Some no longer appear to be available but here is one example:

EDIT: The Wiki link I posted previously also refers to reverse versions of slice and twist serves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_(tennis)#Slice.2Freverse_slice

Yes. This is the "Reverse" twist serve. Hit with semi western or western forehand grip.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@nytennisaddict @Dartagnan64

... Most pro players have exact same toss for first and second serve only difference is first serve is 20 inch or so more in the court, barely noticeable.
But even pros dont throw the ball perfect every time, difference is they will get the second serve in even if they mess up the toss really bad.

One more thing ball toss pro players use is very neutral - they can hit every corner with the same ball toss, and its not the best choice for most lower lvl players ...easiest option is to throw the ball for slice little to the right.

Sorry, but not quite true. This is a very common, pervasive myth. Coaches & players have been making this claim for decades and some/many out there still do. Casual observation might very well lead us to believe that this claim is true. However, upon close inspection, it has been found that most elite servers typically have a significantly different toss for 1st and 2nd serves. Some lesser advanced and intermediate players may employ 3 different tosses. First off, let us consider the front-back variation (position relative to the baseline). The optimal position for flat and slice serves may vary a bit but are often the same or very similar for high level servers. Not so for topspin or kick serves. Take a gander at the top images of a high-level server in post #8. Quite a bit of difference for the front-back toss placement shown in those images. This is representative of many pro/elite servers.

Now let's take a look at the left-right variation in ball toss placement. Jeff Cooper has provided a very detailed study of the left-right variation for 1st serves compared to 2nd serves for numerous ATP servers. Pete Sampras has often been cited as a prime example of a player who hits all serves off, basically, the same toss. However, Jeff's study indicates that this is not the case. Both of Sampras' tosses are somewhat off to the left. But Pete's 2nd serve toss is a bit MORE than 24" further to the left than his 1st serve toss. For Federer, the variation is even greater -- nearly 3 feet (36") further to the left for his 2nd serve relative to his 1st serve. Similar variations are seen for other ATP servers in this study.

http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step2
http://tennis.about.com/od/serve/ss/same-serve-toss-different-spins.htm#step4

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

@nytennisaddict @Dartagnan64


Sorry, but not quite true. This is a very common, pervasive myth. Coaches & players have been making this claim for decades and many/some out there still do. Casual observation might lead us to believe that this is true. However, upon close inspection, it has been found that most elite servers typically have a significantly different toss for 1st and 2nd serves.

I came to the same conclusion after watching an analysis of Isner and Raonic and how, indeed, different serves involved different tosses.

 

[SinjinCooper]

I came to the same conclusion after watching an analysis of Isner and Raonic and how, indeed, different serves involved different tosses.

FWIW, first and second serve tosses were LESS different in the bygone era when rolling the ball in with a little slice was a more common tactic than today's omnipresent kick. (Still not identical, however.)

And what can be said is that many excellent servers aim to different parts of the service box, and with different spins, with a single toss location for their first serves.

 

[Dartagnan64]

And regardless of what a pro does, it's still bad advice to amateur to try to hit all his serves off the same toss. The motions of each serve are different so the getting the toss in the best spot for those different motions is important.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Pros mistake up to 30 cm on their throw very often.

Six year olds don't miss their tosses by 30 cm very often.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

FWIW, first and second serve tosses were LESS different in the bygone era when rolling the ball in with a little slice was a more common tactic than today's omnipresent kick. (Still not identical, however.)

And what can be said is that many excellent servers aim to different parts of the service box, and with different spins, with a single toss location for their first serves.

You could very well be correct about that. However, the American Twist has been around for more than a century and recall hearing about it back in the 70s. Edberg employed a topspin/kick serve quite a bit for his S&V game. But then he often used this for both of his serves. In general, however, it seems that kick serve (variants) have become more prevalent in the past 2 decades or so.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

No point comparing 2 pics when this can be exactly same serve but one or both serves didnt go exactly were they suppose to
First serve went to much to right and second to much to left.
Pros mistake up to 30 cm on their throw very often.Some are even notorious for their bad throwing.
People think pro players always throw perfect ball, thats not even possible but they can get the best of it even from worst throw, that is the difference.
And as i said they have the same toss, spot of the hitting except the deepness of the throw, for the first serve they throw 20 cm more in the court or so.

2:55

Those 2 images Federer are merely representative. Better to actually read Cooper's study than just dwell on those 2 pics. The images in post #8 also tell a story.

I do recall some serve graphics from 2015 for a Novak-Roger match (Cincinnati or USO). It showed a 19 cm variation for Novak and a 20 cm for Roger. But I believe that this was for 1st serves only. Not a comparison of 1st serves vs 2nd serves.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

2:50 kick serve throw , slice wide serve.
3:30 you need to have the same toss.
Janko Tipsarevic talking about pro serve.

I would take that comment with a grain of salt. What pros like Janko say and what they actually do are often not quite the same. Or perhaps the comment has been taken out of context (I'll have to watch more of it to to see if I determine if that is the case). I have seen a video of Novak Djoko say stuff that did not reflect what he actually does. He was primarily repeating what he was probably told by coaches when he was a junior player.