Should the WTF be alternatively played on indoor HC, indoor clay and indoor grass?

[Sport]

I saw a thread of a Federer fan saying some Masters 1000 should be played on grass. In other words, he is pursuing surfaces' equallity for tennis tournaments. The logic of his argument is the following: "Masters 1000 are a tennis tournament. Tennis tournaments should be possible to play on HC, clay and grass".

If we follow this logic, the WTF should alternate and be played some years on indoor HC, other years on indoor clay, and other on indoor grass.

Personally, I don't have any problem any problem with adding some Masters 1000 on grass. But if Masters 1000 on grass were introduced, then the WTF should be played some years on indoor HC, others on indoor clay and others on indoor grass.

Otherwise it would be defending surfaces' equallity only when it favours Federer. That's a logical fallacy known as double standard logic: "Judging two situations by different standards when, in fact, you should be using the same standard."

Source:
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/227/Double-Standard

P.S.: some preparatory events on grass or clay could be collocated before the WTF, and so making a "mini-clay season" or a "mini-grass season". The Paris-Bercy could be made optional, so the years of the grass or clay WTF, most players would skip Paris-Bercy.

 

[Fedforever]

What would be the issues of players having to transition from hard courts to indoor clay? Apparently Andy Murray claimed it would hurt his back

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/t...g-ATP-Tour-finals-and-focus-on-Davis-Cup.html

France also staged the Davis Cup Final in 2014 on clay specifically to disadvantage Federer and Warwrinka who came straight to the Final from WTF. Given their own players were actually better on hard than on clay they must have thought the transition was tough enough to outweigh that disadvantage.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Simply nadal fans are butthurt because nadal can never ever win it on indoor HCs...
/LockThread

 

[mike danny]

No.

It is played on the most neutral surface of them all, a HC.

You play on HC the entire second half after Wimb, so why force the players to make a sudden adaptation to a completely different surface on which at that point they have not played in a long time, like clay or grass.

It is fine as it is on HC. It doesn't get more neutral than that.

 

[Deleted member 756486]

I think it should be on a different surface and location every year.

You’re probably talking about my thread and yes I’m a Federer fan but I’m a tennis fan first.

 

[EloQuent]

RG should be indoor HC tbh

 

[mike danny]

I think it should be on a different surface and location every year.

You’re probably talking about my thread and yes I’m a Federer fan but I’m a tennis fan first.

I disagree. I used to share your view, but then I realized that since the players have to play on HC the entire second half after Wimb it would not make any sense for the final tournament of the year to be played on grass or clay. It would force the players to make sudden adaptations after long HC play. What would be the point of this?

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Grass forecourt, HC backcourt and clay behind the baseline.

 

[Sport]

Simply nadal fans are butthurt because nadal can never ever win it on indoor HCs...
/LockThread

Or simply Federer fans are butthurt because Nadal is the King of Masters 1000. That would explain the repetitive complains about no Masters 1000 on grass. But then they don't want WTF on clay and grass. #double standard.

 

[mike danny]

Or simply Federer fans are buttfurt because Nadal is the King of the Masters 1000. That would explain the repetitive complains about no Masters 1000 on grass. But then they don't want WTF on clay and grass. #double standard.

It's quite interesting how most of the threads regarding the WTF are started by Nadal fans.

 

[Deleted member 756486]

I disagree. I used to share your view, but then I realized that since the players have to play on HC the entire second half after Wimb it would not make any sense for the final tournament of the year to be played on grass or clay. It would force the players to make sudden adaptations after long HC play. What would be the point of this?

Very good point.

Why not just have WTF on blue clay?

 

[mike danny]

Very good point.

Why not just have WTF on blue clay?

Same thing as above

 

[NatF]

Or simply Federer fans are butthurt because Nadal is the King of Masters 1000. That would explain the repetitive complains about no Masters 1000 on grass. But then they don't want WTF on clay and grass. #double standard.

I don't think you know what a double standard is Wanting to maintain the long tradition of having a premier indoors event has nothing to do with wanting there to be more grass representation.

 

[kishnabe]

It is Indoor HC biggest event. No.

If anything it should be changed to Carpet or Wood.

Anything superfast.

There enough Hardcourt Clay and Clay events on tour.

 

[Shaolin]

Grass forecourt, HC backcourt and clay behind the baseline.

Roof over one half of the court.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

You want to change a tournament's surface. I don't think any of those who want a grass Masters suggested the same thing, they just wanted one of Wimbledon warm up events to be upgraded to a Masters while one of clay or more ideally hard court Masters goes down a level. Having said that, there are other motives behind that wish just as much as VamosBrigade wanting WTF surface changed, it's not just honest seeking for a better surface distribution.

 

[Vanilla Slice]

Keep the WTF as an indoor hard court tournament. It makes it the pinnacle of the indoor season and keeps it distinct from the slam venues.

 

[mike danny]

Indoor tennis has actually improved a lot because 3 of the 4 slams now have roofs.

 

[Plamen1234]

No.It should stay Indoor HC as it is now.Why it should be changed to clay or grass.It will be strange if you have HC tournaments from August to October and then you play WTF on clay or grass

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

No.It should stay Indoor HC as it is now.Why it should be changed to clay or grass.It will be strange if you have HC tournaments from August to October and then you play WTF on clay or grass

From August to April if you want to count the next season.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

I think for me the issue is that it's marketed as a "Year-End Championship".

If it were a 10th Masters, except with 8 players and a RR format, I'd have no problem with it on indoor hc.

 

[KINGROGER]

Silly poll options.

- YEC is culmination of indoors season
- indoor HC is the most neutral surface

 

[Pagoo]

Yes, because a 37 year old Federer who's at the end of his career will benefit from the grass masters.

 

[Sport]

I don't think you know what a double standard is Wanting to maintain the long tradition of having a premier indoors event has nothing to do with wanting there to be more grass representation.

When did I say the WTF should not be played indoor?

It is by definition a double standard. Federer fans want surface equallity (suface equallity means that tournaments should be played on grass, hard and clay).

Logical form: "Tournaments should be played on grass, hard and clay". Therefore, some Masters 1000 should be played on grass.

But they only want the WTF to be played only on indoor hardcourt. They do not want it to rotate some years to indoor clay and indoor grass. Why? Because it would not favour Federer, since Nadal would win the WTF on indoor clay.

Real surface equallity would be something like this:

3 Masters 1000 on grass
3 Masters 1000 on hardcourt
3 Masters 1000 on clay
WTF (on year on indoor hc, the next year on indoor grass, and the next year on indoor clay).

It is double standard because they defend surface equallity only when it favours Federer.

 

[Sport]

You want to change a tournament's surface. I don't think any of those who want a grass Masters suggested the same thing, they just wanted one of Wimbledon warm up events to be upgraded to a Masters while one of clay or more ideally hard court Masters goes down a level. Having said that, there are other motives behind that wish just as much as VamosBrigade wanting WTF surface changed, it's not just honest seeking for a better surface distribution.

You also want to change a tournament's surface. You want to change the fact that all Masters 1000 are on hardcourt or clay, and include some on grass.

It is the same that including some years the WTF on indoor clay, others on indoor grass, and others on indoor hard courts.

You only want surface equallity when it favours Federer?

 

[Mainad]

I voted for Option A simply because hardcourt is the most neutral of the surfaces and the one most players can excel on. Grass and clay are too skewed in favour of certain players over others and, whilst it is okay for Slams to be held on all 3 surfaces, the year-ending champions' tournament which features only the 8 best players of the season should always be as neutral as possible and that means hardcourt.

Sorry Rafa!

 

[Sport]

No.It should stay Indoor HC as it is now.Why it should be changed to clay or grass.It will be strange if you have HC tournaments from August to October and then you play WTF on clay or grass

You can add a clay event and a grass event before the WTF, to have a mini-grass season or a mini-clay season. Paris-Bercy could be optional.

So the WTF would be played some years on indoor HC, others on indoor grass, and others on indoor clay.

 

[Sport]

I voted for Option A simply because hardcourt is the most neutral of the surfaces

Fine. But according to that logic all Masters 1000 should be played on HC, because it is the most neutral surface.

 

[NatF]

When did I say the WTF should not be played indoor?

It is by definition a double standard. Federer fans want surface equallity (suface equallity means that tournaments should be played on grass, hard and clay).

Logical form: "Tournaments should be played on grass, hard and clay". Therefore, some Masters 1000 should be played on grass.

But they only want the WTF to be played only on indoor hardcourt. They do not want it to rotate some years to indoor clay and indoor grass. Why? Because it would not favour Federer, since Nadal would win the WTF on indoor clay.

Real surface equallity would be something like this:

3 Masters 1000 on grass
3 Masters 1000 on hardcourt
3 Masters 1000 on clay
WTF (on year on indoor hc, the next year on indoor grass, and the next year on indoor clay).

It is double standard because they defend surface equallity only when it favours Federer.

It's not a double standard because you're conflating two separate issues. People wanting more grass court tournaments has no barring on the WTF at all. Who used the word equality anyway? All I saw was a thread about having a single grass masters.

Switching from indoor HC to indoor clay or indoor grass months after those seasons ended doesn't seem like a great idea anyway, if anything it would harm participation in events like Paris where the top players would be more focused on prepping for the change in surface for the WTF.

Indoor tennis, specifically on hard or carpet surfaces have a long tradition - going back many many decades. I see no more reason for the WTF to change surface than for the USO or the FO.

You also want to change a tournament's surface. You want to change the fact that all Masters 1000 are on hardcourt or clay, and include some on grass.

It is the same that including some years the WTF on indoor clay, others on indoor grass, and others on indoor hard courts.

You only want surface equallity when it favours Federer?

Hes a Djokovic fan you tit

 

[Deon Sanders]

Nope

The greatest players throughout time have been able to get it done on the surface of choice for the WTF

If you cant win a WTF you arent in the conversation

 

[Red Rick]

Honestly, I think it's an interesting question, but not for reasons people are arguing here.

There's no such thing as a neutral surface though.

 

[Mainad]

Honestly, I think it's an interesting question, but not for reasons people are arguing here.

There's no such thing as a neutral surface though.

Maybe not but hardcourt is probably more neutral than the other 2. Have you ever heard a player say they hate playing on hardcourt in contrast to the many who say they hate either grass or clay?

 

[NatF]

Maybe not but hardcourt is probably more neutral than the other 2. Have you ever heard a player say they hate playing on hardcourt in contrast to the many who say they hate either grass or clay?

Nadal no?

 

[Mainad]

Fine. But according to that logic all Masters 1000 should be played on HC, because it is the most neutral surface.

No, that's different because they have larger draws and each Slam or Masters will have a surface that appeals to some more than the others and, if they don't like it, there are always similar events with a surface that they may find better suited to them (with the partial exception of grass). The WTF is a unique season ending event that, unlike Slams or Masters, has no others like it and therefore should be played in conditions that favour the most number of players as possible.

 

[Mainad]

Nadal no?

Funny you should mention him!

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe not but hardcourt is probably more neutral than the other 2. Have you ever heard a player say they hate playing on hardcourt in contrast to the many who say they hate either grass or clay?

I would want to know if that's still the case if HC wasn't 70% of the tournaments.

People talk about it like it's a one dimensional continuum with clay on one side, grass on the other, and HC in the middle. **** doesn't work like that.

Now before blindly saying A, B or C, I'd want to ask what the premise and purpose of the WTF is.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

it should be played on carpet.

 

[NatF]

I would want to know if that's still the case if HC wasn't 70% of the tournaments.

People talk about it like it's a one dimensional continuum with clay on one side, grass on the other, and HC in the middle. **** doesn't work like that.

Now before blindly saying A, B or C, I'd want to ask what the premise and purpose of the WTF is.

What's the premise or purpose of Wimbedon? Or Indian Wells? Or Rome?

 

[sarmpas]

I saw a thread of a Federer fan saying some Masters 1000 should be played on grass. In other words, he is pursuing surfaces' equallity for tennis tournaments. The logic of his argument is the following: "Masters 1000 are a tennis tournament. Tennis tournaments should be possible to play on HC, clay and grass".

If we follow this logic,

I stopped reading tight there because you clearly were not going to follow the logic.

 

[Red Rick]

What's the premise or purpose of Wimbedon? Or Indian Wells? Or Rome?

They don't have the fancy qualifying scheme and an entire damn race dedicated to it.

That's the whole hype of the World Tour Finals. Get the best 8 players in a season that's played on 3 surfaces there. I think it's a little weird to select for 3 surfaces and only play on the one surface year after year, and I'm not entirely sure there is a perfect solution to this.

 

[NatF]

They don't have the fancy qualifying scheme and an entire damn race dedicated to it.

That's the whole hype of the World Tour Finals. Get the best 8 players in a season that's played on 3 surfaces there. I think it's a little weird to select for 3 surfaces and only play on the one surface year after year, and I'm not entirely sure there is a perfect solution to this.

The race isn't really dedicated to the YEC, even if there was no YEC there would still be a race to the YE #1 or #2, #3, #4 etc...Players qualify to play the slams and all tournaments anyway, they're just less selective with it. The surfaces throughout the year are irrelevant IMO.

At it's inception the YEC or WCT Finals as it was in the 70's was the big money culmination of the WCT tour, now with the tour the way it is the YEC is the culmination of the ATP tour AND the indoors tennis season which is played on HC.

 

[West Coast Ace]

Did anyone say ‘no’ yet?

Ridiculous idea.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Nadal is probably the only player who has complained (and suggested the surface rotation) about a surface of a big tournament because it doesn't suit his game. Maybe there are other examples, but I can't remember, but it's silly anyway. Imagine Federer crying about Rome being played on clay instead of grass, just because he failed to lift the trophy after many finals.

WTF should be played on indoor (with several exceptions) hard court (or even carpet) as it has always been played .

 

[sarmpas]

I think some of the FOs should have been played on fast indoor low bouncing courts to give Feddy a good chance to beat Nadal in the final. That's "fair".

 

[Shaolin]

It's the player's job to adjust to the surface. It should be kept indoor to finish the indoor season. If certain players can't win on it, that's their fault. It's not some surprise that it'll be indoor every year.

 

[Mainad]

Nadal is probably the only player who has complained (and suggested the surface rotation) about a surface of a big tournament because it doesn't suit his game. Maybe there are other examples, but I can't remember, but it's silly anyway. Imagine Federer crying about Rome being played on clay instead of grass, just because he failed to lift the trophy after many finals.

WTF should be played on indoor (with several exceptions) hard court (or even carpet) as it has always been played .

It was once played on grass in Melbourne in 1974 (at Kooyong). Otherwise it was played on carpet until 1996 and on hardcourts ever since.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

You also want to change a tournament's surface. You want to change the fact that all Masters 1000 are on hardcourt or clay, and include some on grass.

It is the same that including some years the WTF on indoor clay, others on indoor grass, and others on indoor hard courts.

You only want surface equallity when it favours Federer?

No. In this scenario I "want" to change a couple of tournaments' level, not surface. For example Queens becomes a Masters while Paris becomes a 500 event. This doesn't add or take away any percentage of any surface on the Tour, just makes a little adjustment in the Masters' structure. You want the WTF tournament to change its surface, which would make the indoor season even shorter and also make it weird having a big event on a different surface sandwiched in between the hard court season from July to November and the hard court season from January to April. My point was mostly that these two recently suggested changes are not of the same kind, though both have some other motives behind them apart from search for better surface distribution.

Honestly I don't mind the current distribution myself because unlike a section of Federer fans I don't think grass came from Jesus and I don't diminish clay and every slower court there is just because God forbid someone else excels on them. I am definitely not that insecure. Trying to enjoy every part of the season to be honest...

 

[Incognito]

Stop the Fedal wars! Why not celebrate the greatness? Here’s A collection of amazing points against each other in their exhibition matches throughout their career:

 

[pame]

Can't help laughing at how frenetically the OP is twisting himself into a pretzel and ending up proving how ILlogical he is.

 

[coolboarder]

When did I say the WTF should not be played indoor?

It is by definition a double standard. Federer fans want surface equallity (suface equallity means that tournaments should be played on grass, hard and clay).

Logical form: "Tournaments should be played on grass, hard and clay". Therefore, some Masters 1000 should be played on grass.

But they only want the WTF to be played only on indoor hardcourt. They do not want it to rotate some years to indoor clay and indoor grass. Why? Because it would not favour Federer, since Nadal would win the WTF on indoor clay.

Real surface equallity would be something like this:

3 Masters 1000 on grass
3 Masters 1000 on hardcourt
3 Masters 1000 on clay
WTF (on year on indoor hc, the next year on indoor grass, and the next year on indoor clay).

It is double standard because they defend surface equallity only when it favours Federer.

I would love for this to happen, equality on all surface with one minor change, the WTF being played outdoor a couple of weeks after US Open and have a new season starting in November with Asian Swing leading up to Australian Open. I just do not find a Fall tennis interesting especially with indoor activity.