Should Venus Williams rank #10 all time over Henin and Seles

[justinjay]

It is pretty much common consensus that the best 9 player of all time are Serena (most peoples #1), Graf (most peoples #2), Court, Wills, Navratilova, Evert, King, Connolly, and Lenglen.

The #10 spot isnt really set. The 3 main candidates usually are Venus, Henin, and Seles though. Should Venus round out the top 10 at #10 over Seles and Henin. IMO she should. Reasons why.

Head to head ownage- She is 9-1 vs Seles and 7-2 vs Henin. While it wasnt exactly a prime to prime situation in either case, this is still some massive ownage.

Wimbledon- Everyone concedes even today Wimbledon is the most prestigious and important slam. Venus absolutely thrashes both Seles and Henin here, as an all time great Wimbledon player with 5 titles (would be many more without the female GOAT Serena), while Seles and Henin have 0. BTW even without Henin and her early retirement or the Seles stabbing, both would be lucky to even get 1 title at Wimbledon.

Serena- Venus literally lost about 10-12 slams due to the GOAT Serena. That alone is probably more than even Seles lost due to the stabbing. She literally was hurt more by another great player than any man or women in history. People bring up Roddick and Federer, but it literally doesnt even compare, Roddick lost 3 or 4 slams max by Federer, not even close to what Venus was cost by Serena. The extra bad luck of it being her own younger sister who she feels a duty to protect, and cant allow herself to play all out against.

The eye test and playing level- Venus at her best is just a better player. Other than clay, and maybe slower hard courts. Faster, stronger, hits harder, serves better, better at the net, and more reach.

Insane longevity- Still playing top level tennis and contending for slams until close to 40. The only women in history who did that besides her are Serena and Navratilova.

Doubles- When singles careers are close a great doubles career can sometimes be key. Obvously here Venus excels while Henin and Seles are both non existent.

 

[thrust]

It is pretty much common consensus that the best 9 player of all time are Serena (most peoples #1), Graf (most peoples #2), Court, Wills, Navratilova, Evert, King, Connolly, and Lenglen.

The #10 spot isnt really set. The 3 main candidates usually are Venus, Henin, and Seles though. Should Venus round out the top 10 at #10 over Seles and Henin. IMO she should. Reasons why.

Head to head ownage- She is 9-1 vs Seles and 7-2 vs Henin. While it wasnt exactly a prime to prime situation in either case, this is still some massive ownage.

Wimbledon- Everyone concedes even today Wimbledon is the most prestigious and important slam. Venus absolutely thrashes both Seles and Henin here, as an all time great Wimbledon player with 5 titles (would be many more without the female GOAT Serena), while Seles and Henin have 0. BTW even without Henin and her early retirement or the Seles stabbing, both would be lucky to even get 1 title at Wimbledon.

Serena- Venus literally lost about 10-12 slams due to the GOAT Serena. That alone is probably more than even Seles lost due to the stabbing. She literally was hurt more by another great player than any man or women in history. People bring up Roddick and Federer, but it literally doesnt even compare, Roddick lost 3 or 4 slams max by Federer, not even close to what Venus was cost by Serena. The extra bad luck of it being her own younger sister who she feels a duty to protect, and cant allow herself to play all out against.

The eye test and playing level- Venus at her best is just a better player. Other than clay, and maybe slower hard courts. Faster, stronger, hits harder, serves better, better at the net, and more reach.

Insane longevity- Still playing top level tennis and contending for slams until close to 40. The only women in history who did that besides her are Serena and Navratilova.

Doubles- When singles careers are close a great doubles career can sometimes be key. Obvously here Venus excels while Henin and Seles are both non existent.

Henin has at least as good H-H vs Serena as Venus had. From 03-07, Justine was the YE #1 3 times, Venus Never ended a year at #1. Justine had 117 or so weeks at #1, Venus less than 20. Justine won 2 YE championships, Venus only once despite many more years on tour. Both have 7 slams, again despite Venus entering many more slams than Justine. Though Justine is my all time female player, I would rate Seles over her and Justine over Venus. Winning 5 Wimbledons does not automatically make Venus superior to Monica or Justine.

 

[justinjay]

Henin has at least as good H-H vs Serena as Venus had. From 03-07, Justine was the YE #1 3 times, Venus Never ended a year at #1. Justine had 117 or so weeks at #1, Venus less than 20. Justine won 2 YE championships, Venus only once despite many more years on tour. Both have 7 slams, again despite Venus entering many more slams than Justine. Though Justine is my all time female player, I would rate Seles over her and Justine over Venus. Winning 5 Wimbledons does not automatically make Venus superior to Monica or Justine.

Everyone knows the WTA rankings during that period were largely a sham. Venus was considered hands down the best player in the world in both 2000 and 2001, regardless of rankings. All her peers would acknowledge this too. Henin was considered the best player in 2007 clearly, and arguably (but not clearly) in 2003 and 2006. Seles in 91 and 92. So all 3 are roughly on par here.

As for the Henin vs Serena head to head, all of Henin's wins were either on clay (her best surface and Serena's worst) or during her career peak year of 2007. Hardly that impressive.

 

[thrust]

Everyone knows the WTA rankings during that period were largely a sham. Venus was considered hands down the best player in the world in both 2000 and 2001, regardless of rankings. All her peers would acknowledge this too. Henin was considered the best player in 2007 clearly, and arguably (but not clearly) in 2003 and 2006. Seles in 91 and 92. So all 3 are roughly on par here.

As for the Henin vs Serena head to head, all of Henin's wins were either on clay (her best surface and Serena's worst) or during her career peak year of 2007. Hardly that impressive.

The ranking system 03-07 are the same as today. All of Venus's wins against Justine were before Justine reached her peak. IMO, considering their physical potential Justine was an overachiever, Venus and underachiever.

 

[justinjay]

The ranking system 03-07 are the same as today.

And the rankings are often a sham today too. Wozniacki's 2 Year End #1s, especialy the 2011 one, LOL! Regardless if you think the rankings were merited, I dont really care when it is clear to anyone with a brain Venus was hands down the best player in the world atleast 2 years- 2000 and 2001, which gives her as much time as the best player in the world as Seles, and arguably as Henin had.

 

[thrust]

And the rankings are often a sham today too. Wozniacki's 2 Year End #1s, especialy the 2011 one, LOL! Regardless if you think the rankings were merited, I dont really care when it is clear to anyone with a brain Venus was hands down the best player in the world atleast 2 years- 2000 and 2001, which gives her as much time as the best player in the world as Seles, and arguably as Henin had.

In order to end the year at #1 a player has to play their best consistently. Even if you don't think Henin deserves th #10 ranking, certainly, Seles deserves it over Venus. Without the stabbing, there is little doubt that Seles would hav more than 9 slams vs 7 for Venus.

 

[Phoenix1983]

#10 is clearly Seles.

 

[boredone3456]

1. Doubles and singles are different, they are not cumulative in a GOAT situation.
2. Venus only won 2 of the 4 majors in her career, Henin and Seles both won 3 of the 4.
3. Seles has at least 2 majors each at 3 of the 4 majors which neither Venus nor Henin have.
4. Seles has over 50 singles titles, neither Venus nor Henin have that many currently
5. Seles has 9 majors to 7 for both Henin and Venus. Whatever value you want to give Wimbledon, she has several majors fewer than Monica Does.

Seles is #10

 

[Xavier G]

Seles 10.

 

[abmk]

Don't follow WTA that much, but from what I know, Seles should be clearly above both.

 

[justinjay]

In order to end the year at #1 a player has to play their best consistently. Even if you don't think Henin deserves th #10 ranking, certainly, Seles deserves it over Venus. Without the stabbing, there is little doubt that Seles would hav more than 9 slams vs 7 for Venus.

If we want to do what ifs, if Venus does not have her auto immune disease AND does not have to deal with Serena who cost her like 10-12 slams she probably has about 25 slams or more. Seles does not have close to that even without the stabbing, even in a weak era with no depth and except Steffi no competition. As I said in Graf vs Serena thread the fact SANCHEZ was the 3rd best player of that era, hands down the least talented player to win 4 slams, arguably the least talented ever to win 2 slams, says all you need to know about that period. Neither Seles or Graf were ever on top with any competition ever, Seles dominated in 91-92 with Graf in a huge slump, her worst slump of all of 86-96, and nobody else of note (other than the aforementioned Sanchez and Mrs. 3-15 in slam semi finals Sabatini). Of the 10 biggest tournaments Seles won in 91-92, she had to beat Graf in only ONE of the 10. And then of course Graf had it even easier competition wise, first dominating first very old Navratilova and Evert then the abysmal post Seles stabbing field.

 

[thrust]

If we want to do what ifs, if Venus does not have her auto immune disease AND does not have to deal with Serena who cost her like 10-12 slams she probably has about 25 slams or more. Seles does not have close to that even without the stabbing, even in a weak era with no depth and except Steffi no competition. As I said in Graf vs Serena thread the fact SANCHEZ was the 3rd best player of that era, hands down the least talented player to win 4 slams, arguably the least talented ever to win 2 slams, says all you need to know about that period. Neither Seles or Graf were ever on top with any competition ever, Seles dominated in 91-92 with Graf in a huge slump, her worst slump of all of 86-96, and nobody else of note (other than the aforementioned Sanchez and Mrs. 3-15 in slam semi finals Sabatini). Of the 10 biggest tournaments Seles won in 91-92, she had to beat Graf in only ONE of the 10. And then of course Graf had it even easier competition wise, first dominating first very old Navratilova and Evert then the abysmal post Seles stabbing field.

NONSENSE! Others had to face Serena, not just Venus. In 04 Henin started the season winning the AO and IW, after which she came down with a virus that kept her out of the game for several months. Venus did not lose much time with her illness and is still competing in her late thirties, which show her illness did not affect her that much. Venus was a great player, but and inconsistent one. I agree that Graf's slam count is inflated and that Serena is superior to Graf, tennis and competition wise.

 

[justinjay]

NONSENSE! Others had to face Serena, not just Venus. In 04 Henin started the season winning the AO and IW, after which she came down with a virus that kept her out of the game for several months. Venus did not lose much time with her illness and is still competing in her late thirties, which show her illness did not affect her that much. Venus was a great player, but and inconsistent one. I agree that Graf's slam count is inflated and that Serena is superior to Graf, tennis and competition wise.

But Venus was by FAR the one most hurt by Serena, with Sharapova a strong 2nd. Henin doesnt even come close, she probably lost hardly any slams to Serena, maybe just the 2010 Australian. Lets look at the slams she likely wins without Serena:

2002 French
2002 Wimbledon
2002 U.S Open
2003 Australian Open
2003 Wimbledon

Dont even question those 5 as Venus was making every final to lose to Serena this whole time, regularly beating Clijsters, Henin, Davenport, nobody else was stopping here at any of these.

2008 U.S Open- another no brainer unless you think Jankovic was stopping her.
2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva might have had a shot but the head to head would clearly indicate a Venus win.
2015 U.S Open- It seems unlikely she would have fallen to Vinci or Pennetta.
2017 Australian Open

Those are the extremely likely ones. Some less certain but possible ones would be:

2015 Wimbledon- Azarenka or Sharapova might stop her but certainly a shot. Muguruza was too green to ever win the final at this point.
1999 U.S Open- I know she technically lost to Hingis but with a rearranged draw she possibly wins. She owned Davenport starting in summer 99, and Hingis couldnt win a big final to save her life anymore.

And probably a couple others I am forgetting.

And ever since 2001 Venus has run out of gas in the late stages of slams, especialy since 2005. If that isnt proof her auto immune defeciency isnt impacting her, I dont know what is.

 

[boredone3456]

But Venus was by FAR the one most hurt by Serena, with Sharapova a strong 2nd. Henin doesnt even come close, she probably lost hardly any slams to Serena, maybe just the 2010 Australian. Lets look at the slams she likely wins without Serena:

2002 French

While I am not going to debate every point you made, except to say that it is all just a bunch of coulda woulda shoulda that in the end still happened, the 2002 French Open Draw worked out incredibly well for Venus. Her path to the final, outside of Seles in the QF, was one of the luckiest openings in history. Other than Seles the highest ranked person she played to get to that final was the #31 seed Rita Grande. Other than Seles she didn't have to face a single top player. Then when you look at her overall history at the tournament and see that that was the only year she has ever been past the QF there, and in the 17 years since has only been able to get to the QF 2 more times, says something. And for quite a few years after 2002 she was winning at Wimbledon and a huge contender for the US Open. She has never been so amazingly good on clay she was a major force at the French. It would take a lot more than just Serena being out of the picture for her to have ever won that tournament, because given her history take Serena out and redo the draw, odds are she still would not have won in 2002.

 

[parvasedpotens]

Although I think a prime Seles or Henin is a better player than prime Venus, I have to put Miss Williams in 10th due to her doubles. Although I do not agree with every one of the original poster's points, he does a good job of making the case.

 

[pat200]

Seles is firmly at number 10 it shouldn't even be up for debate. The slams, weeks at number 1, 3 wta tour championships and many other feats support her hold of that number 10 ranking.

 

[justinjay]

Seles is firmly at number 10 it shouldn't even be up for debate. The slams, weeks at number 1, 3 wta tour championships and many other feats support her hold of that number 10 ranking.

While the slams and 3 WTA Championships are legit points, the weeks at number 1 as if when Seles was basically just handed 60 free weeks with the whole co-#1 status in her comeback, when she never at any point had earned the points to be #1 otherwise. As I already said all 3 women had roughly 2 years as the best player (real #1) so that part is a wash for me. I guess you could argue Henin for a 3rd year, which would give her a slight edge on the other two.

For the WTA Championships and Olympic Golds are on par which would give Venus a combined 5 of those and Henin/Seles each only 3. Miami is the next event down in non slam importance, where again Venus trumps both Seles and Henin, heck Henin has ZERO Miami titles, a major blotch on her resume along with her lack of a Wimbledon. Collectively in the 3 most major events outside slams, Venus easily bests the other 2. She has won all 3 vs Seles who never won the Olympics and Henin who never won Miami, and has more total titles. Even if you discount Olympic doubles golds entirely (given the format of the Olympics it would seem any medal is the same value but anyhow, just for the sake of argument), Venus would still have the edge with the same # of combined Miami/YEC/Olympic titles as Seles, more than Henin, and having won all 3 of them including the Oly singles gold, unlike either Seles or Henin.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

In my opinion when comparing two players and the slam difference is only 1, you can make an argument for the player with fewer slams if he/she is ahead in most other stats. However, a slam difference of 2 or greater already sets the deal for me. In the case of Seles and Venus it isn’t even that Venus is ahead in most other stats. Seles has more WTA finals (3:1) way more weeks at No.1 and also more tournaments won. Venus success in doubles is meaningless here. Almost nobody out of the great single players plays doubles anymore and Venus benefited from the fact that due to being her sister she could team up with the greatest female player of her era. The argument that she had stronger competition in Serena isn’t valid either. Seles had Graf, Navratilova and even worse the stabbing so it evens out in the end. The head to head between the two is meaningless, as Venus never faced a Seles who was even remotely close to her prime. All in all Seles > Venus and it is not close at all.

 

[boredone3456]

Let's look at it this way

Australian Open Titles
Seles: 4
Venus: 0
Winner Seles

French Open Titles
Seles 3
Venus 0
Winner Seles

Wimbledon Titles
Seles 0
Venus 5
Winner Venus

US Open Titles
Seles 2
Venus 2
Each also have 2 Runner Up Finishes so this is a wash.

So at the majors Its overall an Edge for Seles unless you want to try and claim those 5 Wimbledons cancel Venus Never winning the AO or French. Seles won 3 of the 4 and won each of those 3 Multiple times including successfully defending each of them at least once.

Outside the majors, here it does get closer.

Career titles
Seles 53
Venus 49
Winner Seles

Career record
Seles 595-122 for a career win % of roughly 83%
Venus 787-230 for a career win % of roughly 78%
Seles has the better win % and fewer losses, Venus has more match wins. I'd give an edge to Seles here but this could be called a wash

Weeks at #1
Seles 178
Venus 11
Winner Seles....even if you chucked out 70 weeks she was awarded when she came back she still has well over 100 weeks

YEC titles
Seles 3
Venus 1
Winner Seles

Tier 1 Titles
Seles 9
Venus 9
For this and the new division of tournaments I basically took Wikipedias stats for Venus saying she has 9 Tier I/Premier Mandatory/Premier 5....so it's a tie. If we wanted to use runner up finishes at said tournaments as a tiebreaker, than Seles wins with 9 additional runner ups to 6 Runner Ups for Venus.

Tier 2 titles
Seles 22
Venus 18
Winner Seles

If we broke down Titles by Surface
Hard
Seles 28
Venus 31
Winner Venus

Clay
Seles 14
Venus 9
Winner Seles

Grass
Seles 1
Venus 5
Winner Venus

Carpet
Seles 10
Venus 4
Winner Seles....however I almost didn't include this because Seles I think had way more chances on carpet, but to include all surfaces I threw it in

Venus has an Olympic Gold, so edge for Venus

Yr End #1
Seles 3
Venus 2
If you throw out one for Seles, which I can see, it becomes a tie. If you wanted to find some way to break the tie here I'm not sure how, but Seles won 3 majors in both her 2 yr end #1 years, Venus only won 2 in each. But both have 2

Overall...Seles has a lot more edges than Venus.

 

[PDJ]

No.
Seles for reasons already given.

Venus is a solid Tier 2 champion.

 

[PDJ]

And the rankings are often a sham today too. Wozniacki's 2 Year End #1s, especialy the 2011 one, LOL! Regardless if you think the rankings were merited, I dont really care when it is clear to anyone with a brain Venus was hands down the best player in the world atleast 2 years- 2000 and 2001, which gives her as much time as the best player in the world as Seles, and arguably as Henin had.

Ok, you've persuaded me to evaluate my former opinion that Seles ranks above Venus.


Yup, still Seles.

Then Henin.

 

[hothanded]

In my opinion when comparing two players and the slam difference is only 1, you can make an argument for the player with fewer slams if he/she is ahead in most other stats. However, a slam difference of 2 or greater already sets the deal for me. In the case of Seles and Venus it isn’t even that Venus is ahead in most other stats. Seles has more WTA finals (3:1) way more weeks at No.1 and also more tournaments won. Venus success in doubles is meaningless here. Almost nobody out of the great single players plays doubles anymore and Venus benefited from the fact that due to being her sister she could team up with the greatest female player of her era. The argument that she had stronger competition in Serena isn’t valid either. Seles had Graf, Navratilova and even worse the stabbing so it evens out in the end. The head to head between the two is meaningless, as Venus never faced a Seles who was even remotely close to her prime. All in all Seles > Venus and it is not close at all.

ROTFL Seles did not have Navratilova. Navratilova is 17 years older than Seles. By that logic Venus had Graf and Seles (closer to true than Seles-Navratilova).

 

[pat200]

ROTFL Seles did not have Navratilova. Navratilova is 17 years older than Seles. By that logic Venus had Graf and Seles (closer to true than Seles-Navratilova).

they played 17 times! head to head is 10-7 for seles, so yes she had navratilova

 

[hothanded]

they played 17 times! head to head is 10-7 for seles, so yes she had navratilova

She had a 35-37 year old Navratilova who was a weaker player at that point in time than Sabatini. Which btw is undisputed as Sabatini had a winning record vs Navratilova during this period, was consistently ranked higher, won more tournaments, and had better slam results. So no you cant just throw out and say "oh she had Navratilova" as if it were she was facing a great in her prime.

And if you want to say she had Navratilova then you have to say Venus had Seles and even Graf too. Either way there is no question Venus faced way more and stronger competition than Seles did.

 

[hothanded]

On the thread question I would probably pick Henin slightly in front of Venus and Seles for #10. IMO she was the most versatile and complete of the 3. She was a big threat on all surfaces unlike Seles who wasnt on grass and Venus who wasnt on clay.

 

[Sport]

Over Seles? Why?

 

[thrust]

Let's look at it this way

Australian Open Titles
Seles: 4
Venus: 0
Winner Seles

French Open Titles
Seles 3
Venus 0
Winner Seles

Wimbledon Titles
Seles 0
Venus 5
Winner Venus

US Open Titles
Seles 2
Venus 2
Each also have 2 Runner Up Finishes so this is a wash.

So at the majors Its overall an Edge for Seles unless you want to try and claim those 5 Wimbledons cancel Venus Never winning the AO or French. Seles won 3 of the 4 and won each of those 3 Multiple times including successfully defending each of them at least once.

Outside the majors, here it does get closer.

Career titles
Seles 53
Venus 49
Winner Seles

Career record
Seles 595-122 for a career win % of roughly 83%
Venus 787-230 for a career win % of roughly 78%
Seles has the better win % and fewer losses, Venus has more match wins. I'd give an edge to Seles here but this could be called a wash

Weeks at #1
Seles 178
Venus 11
Winner Seles....even if you chucked out 70 weeks she was awarded when she came back she still has well over 100 weeks

YEC titles
Seles 3
Venus 1
Winner Seles

Tier 1 Titles
Seles 9
Venus 9
For this and the new division of tournaments I basically took Wikipedias stats for Venus saying she has 9 Tier I/Premier Mandatory/Premier 5....so it's a tie. If we wanted to use runner up finishes at said tournaments as a tiebreaker, than Seles wins with 9 additional runner ups to 6 Runner Ups for Venus.

Tier 2 titles
Seles 22
Venus 18
Winner Seles

If we broke down Titles by Surface
Hard
Seles 28
Venus 31
Winner Venus

Clay
Seles 14
Venus 9
Winner Seles

Grass
Seles 1
Venus 5
Winner Venus

Carpet
Seles 10
Venus 4
Winner Seles....however I almost didn't include this because Seles I think had way more chances on carpet, but to include all surfaces I threw it in

Venus has an Olympic Gold, so edge for Venus

Yr End #1
Seles 3
Venus 2
If you throw out one for Seles, which I can see, it becomes a tie. If you wanted to find some way to break the tie here I'm not sure how, but Seles won 3 majors in both her 2 yr end #1 years, Venus only won 2 in each. But both have 2

Overall...Seles has a lot more edges than Venus.

Venus, officially, never had a YE at #1. Fact is that Venus played many more tournaments and slams than Seles, yet won fewer in both categories. Had Seles not been attacked, she would be much further superior than Venus than she IS now.

 

[hothanded]

Venus, officially, never had a YE at #1.

Neither does Sharapova. It is a big mark against both of those particular players IMO.

 

[hothanded]

Achievements aside I think prime to prime Venus and Seles are about equal across all the surfaces.

Slow hard courts- Seles
Clay- Seles by a lot (but less than the gap on grass still)
Grass- Venus by a country mile
Fast hard courts- Venus
Indoor/carpet- about the same

 

[pat200]

She had a 35-37 year old Navratilova who was a weaker player at that point in time than Sabatini. Which btw is undisputed as Sabatini had a winning record vs Navratilova during this period, was consistently ranked higher, won more tournaments, and had better slam results. So no you cant just throw out and say "oh she had Navratilova" as if it were she was facing a great in her prime.

And if you want to say she had Navratilova then you have to say Venus had Seles and even Graf too. Either way there is no question Venus faced way more and stronger competition than Seles did.

10-7! that says a lot. even a non prime navratilova was able to take 7 wins from seles. that is impressive. how many players can claim to have won 7 or more matches against seles?? so yes she had navratilova, just like venus had seles and to some extent graf. they overlapped and played so they did have each other.

 

[hothanded]

10-7! that says a lot. even a non prime navratilova was able to take 7 wins from seles. that is impressive. how many players can claim to have won 7 or more matches against seles?? so yes she had navratilova, just like venus had seles and to some extent graf. they overlapped and played so they did have each other.

The first 3 wins were in 1989 when Seles was 15 years old and even further from her prime than Navratilova. Yes a very aged Navratilova posting 4 wins over peak Seles from 91-early 93 is impressive, but also maybe a sign Seles is not even that great, and apart from a subpar Graf who she barely played didnt have much competition when she won all those slams, yet another case to possibly make a case for Venus and/or Henin against her as the thread starter did. I would be willing to bet money Venus of 2000-2003 and probably even Henin of 2003-2007 does not lose to mid 30s Navratilova 4 times after all.

Either way yes you could count Navratilova for Seles if you are also counting Seles and Graf for the Williams sisters. Which the person who brought up Navratilova was not doing, so it was still biased and slanted. Of course the only way to even argue without it being a complete joke Seles had tougher competition than Venus would be to try and act like Seles faced a strong top Navratilova and Venus didnt face anyone besides Serena.