Shoulder and body rotation during serve

[sportsfan1]

I understand the basics of serve in terms of trophy position, back scratch, contact/pronation and follow through. However, maybe I am thinking too much about this, but I would really like to understand in detail the movement of the server's upper body and shoulders during the various stages of the serve , i.e, trophy position through back scratch and contact.
Do the steps below sound right (appreciate any pics/slow motion videos)?

1) At the trophy position, the shoulders are positioned (after turning away from net) such that shoulder blades are sort of facing the opponent
2) From trophy to backscratch position, upper body and shoulders having rotated back, are parallel to the side fence and perpendicular to the net? At this point, both shoulders are also straight, i.e if you drew a line through the shoulders, it would be 180 degrees and parallel to the ground.
3) During contact, shoulders still perpendicular to net, but there is rotation so that back shoulder is over front shoulder, but no additional upper body/chest rotation from the previous step #2?
4) After contact, shoulders and body rotate to be parallel to the net?

 

[fuzz nation]

Whoa... I've gotta go do some service motions in front of a mirror now!!!

While there are several common elements included in most "good" serves, it's really tough to say exactly where this or that should be aligned at any certain point in the progression of a motion. Keep in mind that when we align ourselves with either the deuce or ad box, that alone should alter the setup by several degrees to the left or right.

Some servers do very well with a rather closed stance, while others hit a great serve from a more open setup and these alignments can change for any individual depending on the type of serve that he/she is trying to deliver. Take this as generally good news though, because it will hopefully free you from obsessing too much on individual components of very complex and dynamic shot. Complex in that there are maybe twice as many things to synchronize compared with let's say a ground stroke.

As for pronation? Don't worry about it. It's simply the result of other basic actions in your serve and not something we should consciously try to perform. Unless you're elbowing yourself in the ribs when you hit your serve, you're pronating just fine.

I'll be back...

 

[Limpinhitter]

I understand the basics of serve in terms of trophy position, back scratch, contact/pronation and follow through. However, maybe I am thinking too much about this, but I would really like to understand in detail the movement of the server's upper body and shoulders during the various stages of the serve , i.e, trophy position through back scratch and contact.
Do the steps below sound right (appreciate any pics/slow motion videos)?

1) At the trophy position, the shoulders are positioned (after turning away from net) such that shoulder blades are sort of facing the opponent
2) From trophy to backscratch position, upper body and shoulders having rotated back, are parallel to the side fence and perpendicular to the net? At this point, both shoulders are also straight, i.e if you drew a line through the shoulders, it would be 180 degrees and parallel to the ground.
3) During contact, shoulders still perpendicular to net, but there is rotation so that back shoulder is over front shoulder, but no additional upper body/chest rotation from the previous step #2?
4) After contact, shoulders and body rotate to be parallel to the net?

1. Yes. The opponent should be able to see your shoulder blades in the trophy pose.
2. Yes.
3. No. But, the degree of turn depends on where you are aiming the ball. You are correct that, from the trophy position to contact, the tilt of the shoulders reverse from the tossing shoulder up to the hitting shoulder up. However, the amount of turn you employ depends on whether you are aiming for the right side or left side of the box. If you are aiming for the right side, then you should to about 2 O'Clock. If you are aiming for the left side of the box then you should turn to approximately 1 O'Clock. In no event to you completely truncate your turn.
4. No. I would say past parallel to the net, moreso if you are hitting to the left side of the box.

 

[boramiNYC]

IMHO, focusing on upper body rotation will most likely be a futile exercise without thinking about feet and hip because the torque and absorption of that torque happens from the ankles and hips. Shoulder simply follows hip and further rotation than hip is absorption and stabilization process. If you try to focus on upper body and try to rotate it, it'll be very weak and won't have much control nor power. For pros, upper body rotation you are seeing is from what they are doing on their legs and hip.

Now, first your heels have to be lifted to generate a good rotation force (torque) of the hip and absorb the torque as well. Without this rotation would be very limited. So try this and see how it works out in cooperation with your upper body.

 

[charliefedererer]

I understand the basics of serve in terms of trophy position, back scratch, contact/pronation and follow through. However, maybe I am thinking too much about this, but I would really like to understand in detail the movement of the server's upper body and shoulders during the various stages of the serve , i.e, trophy position through back scratch and contact.
Do the steps below sound right (appreciate any pics/slow motion videos)?

1) At the trophy position, the shoulders are positioned (after turning away from net) such that shoulder blades are sort of facing the opponent
2) From trophy to backscratch position, upper body and shoulders having rotated back, are parallel to the side fence and perpendicular to the net? At this point, both shoulders are also straight, i.e if you drew a line through the shoulders, it would be 180 degrees and parallel to the ground.
3) During contact, shoulders still perpendicular to net, but there is rotation so that back shoulder is over front shoulder, but no additional upper body/chest rotation from the previous step #2?
4) After contact, shoulders and body rotate to be parallel to the net?

1) pic 1
2) pics 4,5
3) pic 8
4) pics 9-12

 

[zapvor]

I understand the basics of serve in terms of trophy position, back scratch, contact/pronation and follow through. However, maybe I am thinking too much about this, but I would really like to understand in detail the movement of the server's upper body and shoulders during the various stages of the serve , i.e, trophy position through back scratch and contact.
Do the steps below sound right (appreciate any pics/slow motion videos)?

1) At the trophy position, the shoulders are positioned (after turning away from net) such that shoulder blades are sort of facing the opponent
2) From trophy to backscratch position, upper body and shoulders having rotated back, are parallel to the side fence and perpendicular to the net? At this point, both shoulders are also straight, i.e if you drew a line through the shoulders, it would be 180 degrees and parallel to the ground.
3) During contact, shoulders still perpendicular to net, but there is rotation so that back shoulder is over front shoulder, but no additional upper body/chest rotation from the previous step #2?
4) After contact, shoulders and body rotate to be parallel to the net?

hey man if you want we can hit again and i can give you some pointers

 

[sportsfan1]

^^ Haha, live instruction, even better.. will work that out over email once schedule permits..

@limpinhitter & @charliefederer: Thanks for the tips. Any more on how to:

5) ensure you have reached proper backscratch position, and its not just abbreviated, such as during a pressure situation in a match?
6) avoid falling/tilting backwards during the serve?

[numbers start at 5 due to continuation of sequence from previous post]

 

[LeeD]

Lots of people throw a ball differently.
Lots of people hit a serve differently.
For an extreme example, just focusing on shoulders and body, look at McEnroe's vs Roddick's serve motions.

 

[zapvor]

^^ Haha, live instruction, even better.. will work that out over email once schedule permits..

@limpinhitter & @charliefederer: Thanks for the tips. Any more on how to:

5) ensure you have reached proper backscratch position, and its not just abbreviated, such as during a pressure situation in a match?
6) avoid falling/tilting backwards during the serve?

[numbers start at 5 due to continuation of sequence from previous post]

i mean yea. the problem with this section is, one can only gain so much from text on a message board. too many people here are armchair coaches claiming to be 4.5 and winning open tourneys etc etc. lets go out and hit some and we can post the video for fun.

 

[Funbun]

I understand the basics of serve in terms of trophy position, back scratch, contact/pronation and follow through. However, maybe I am thinking too much about this, but I would really like to understand in detail the movement of the server's upper body and shoulders during the various stages of the serve , i.e, trophy position through back scratch and contact.
Do the steps below sound right (appreciate any pics/slow motion videos)?

1) At the trophy position, the shoulders are positioned (after turning away from net) such that shoulder blades are sort of facing the opponent
2) From trophy to backscratch position, upper body and shoulders having rotated back, are parallel to the side fence and perpendicular to the net? At this point, both shoulders are also straight, i.e if you drew a line through the shoulders, it would be 180 degrees and parallel to the ground.
3) During contact, shoulders still perpendicular to net, but there is rotation so that back shoulder is over front shoulder, but no additional upper body/chest rotation from the previous step #2?
4) After contact, shoulders and body rotate to be parallel to the net?

The answers to all your questions are all "yes". For number 2 though, it really depends on the type of serve you plan to do.

Now go out there and actually play some practice matches. It's really pointless to go into such intricate detail on technique, and such meticulousness can even hinder your development. I'm certain that D1 college players can't truly tell the degree of orientation of their shoulders at the point of contact, mainly because they never bothered to approach technique development on your terms ( i.e. super-detailed, missing the big picture, etc.)

Speaking from experience, it's much easier to actually feel it correctly first, then explain everything what one has done in detail. (...mostly because anybody with a decent vocabulary can easily explain a kinesthetic motion once you actually do the kinesthetic motion.)

I'm assuming you're posting this because you want to learn how to serve better. If that's the case, all you need to do is look at regular and slowmo pro footage on Youtube of your favorite player, and copy what they do in front of the mirror. You apparently know the fundamentals, so now ask yourself what makes the pros the pros. What makes their technique superior? Am I doing something extraneous and/or wrong that they are not doing?

As for your questions:

5: You shouldn't care about backscratch position. You want to emerge from trophy pose immediately to upward swing. It's literally like throwing a football upward; you don't start with the football behind your head, do you? No, it's quick, singular motion starting from raising the football up, pulling back, then throw.

Backscratch position is and should be natural to the service flow. If you're worrying about "proper backscratch position", then you're doing it wrong.

6: If you're falling back or tilting backwards, you could be doing many things wrong. Your toss may be too far back behind your head, you may not be transferring your weight into the court, or you may not be even standing correctly. Have zapvor help you on this, I guess.

 

[sportsfan1]

pectoral stretch in serving motion

I am going to add an observation from a practice session here, more as a note to myself (so I don't forget and have to re-learn it):


Regarding SystemicAnomaly in this sentence "the elbow/arm lags behind a bit which results in a pectoral stretch. When this pectoral stretch is released, the arm starts to accelerate faster than the torso rotation." (originally from the "Serving kinetic chain" thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...30&postcount=9)

One of the key's to this (and I may be way off base here, but this is what I thought) is that in a throwing motion, the "non-throwing arm" stretches way out in front and this really stretches the chest and back muscles and aids in power in throwing. Perform throwing motions with arm coming straight down versus out in front and you will notice the difference.

Similarly in the serving motion, it would look like the non-hitting arm shouldn't just drop straight down from after the toss like a fist pump, but should stretch out a little in front therefore stretching the same set of muscles. This can be seen in the following videos:

Sampras: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY

 

[Limpinhitter]

^^ Haha, live instruction, even better.. will work that out over email once schedule permits..

@limpinhitter & @charliefederer: Thanks for the tips. Any more on how to:

5) ensure you have reached proper backscratch position, and its not just abbreviated, such as during a pressure situation in a match?
6) avoid falling/tilting backwards during the serve?

[numbers start at 5 due to continuation of sequence from previous post]

These video lessons should help answer these questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk&feature=relmfu

 

[dParis]

When my instructor tells me I'm opening my hip too early, what does he mean?

I know, literally, what he means, but what can I do to stop it? I like serving from a platform position (I believe) and I find dragging my back (right) foot up to meet my front foot (pinpoint?) complicates the motion more than I'm willing or able to deal with.

One drill he had me do was to place a racquet over my back foot and hit serves without kicking the racquet away. Definitely kept me from opening the hips at all really and an interesting side effect was the amount of sideways kick I was producing without even trying.

Are there any good videos or advice available that builds upon this concept?

 

[charliefedererer]

^^ Haha, live instruction, even better.. will work that out over email once schedule permits..

@limpinhitter & @charliefederer: Thanks for the tips. Any more on how to:

5) ensure you have reached proper backscratch position, and its not just abbreviated, such as during a pressure situation in a match?
6) avoid falling/tilting backwards during the serve?

[numbers start at 5 due to continuation of sequence from previous post]

5.) Keep practicing until you develop "muscle memory" and correct technique becomes automatic.
Keep playing matches so you get used to "pressure situations."

6.) Your upper body tilts backward as you "form a bow shape". The key is to counterweight this backward tilt of your upper body by letting your front hip protrude out.
Tennis Lesson: Serve Tips: Lead with the Hip FYB2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgeYmEScfgQ

You'll note all the pros incorporate their tossing motion as part of their coiling:
Federer Murray Haas & more ball toss common threads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k&feature=related

Thus there is no hurried need to get into their balanced trophy position - it all smoothly flows out of the toss:
Tennis Serve Tossing Motion Tempo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8&feature=relmfu

For more on how to combine the toss and getting into a balanced trophy position check out my post #22 in this thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=417951&page=2

 

[sportsfan1]

^^ In addition to post #22, post #26 with the serve doctor's hitch removal video is terrific! If you could also comment on my post #11 above (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6445353&postcount=11), and clarify on the role of the non-hitting arm in the serve and how to load up the pectoral muscles for a powerful hit, it would be great! AFAIK from tutorial videos, it should drop down like a fist pump, but that conflicts with how it works in a pitching motion where it's way out and that stretches out the chest muscles to build up power. Of course, that way out arm movement doesn't fit naturally in the serve motion? Appreciate the time!

Two videos to help you work on a more fluid serve without a "hitch":

"The serve doctor demonstrates his innovative step-by-step process for correcting common serve "hitch" problems and rebuilding better serve technique into habit." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um5q7Lx107k
....

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

... Regarding SystemicAnomaly in this sentence "the elbow/arm lags behind a bit which results in a pectoral stretch. When this pectoral stretch is released, the arm starts to accelerate faster than the torso rotation." (originally from the "Serving kinetic chain" thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...30&postcount=9)

One of the key's to this (and I may be way off base here, but this is what I thought) is that in a throwing motion, the "non-throwing arm" stretches way out in front and this really stretches the chest and back muscles and aids in power in throwing. Perform throwing motions with arm coming straight down versus out in front and you will notice the difference.

Similarly in the serving motion, it would look like the non-hitting arm shouldn't just drop straight down from after the toss like a fist pump, but should stretch out a little in front therefore stretching the same set of muscles. This can be seen in the following videos:

Sampras: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY

sportsci.com/topics2/presentations/throwing_doc_presentation_isbs99/mthrow.htm

The tossing arm doesn't really have anything to do with the pectoral stretch that I was talking about. For a right-handed server like Sampras, the stretch is in the right pectoralis major (attached to the right shoulder). The stretch is achieved (the pec muscle is loaded) during the trophy phase of the serve by pulling the right elbow back. It is released as the arm comes forward and upward when the arm is extended to "throw" the racket upward to meet the ball. (However, that release might not be that easy to see. Try to feel the stretch and release in your practice motions).

In his spring-loaded serve video, the Serve Doctor, alludes to this stretch. He does talk about a stretch in the core, however, he does not mention the pec stretch explicitly. But, when he is talks about "pulling arrow back in a bow", he gives you a sense of this right side pec stretch. Here is that part of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88&t=1m50s

The tossing arm serves a different function. In the Sampras video, note that his left arm is extended upward at the trophy phase. As the racket head drops down toward the "scratch" position, the left arm is coming down. It is tucked into the body on the upward swing. This enables the torso to rotate faster (just as an ice skater spins faster when she pulls her arms in). The tucked tossing arm promotes a faster shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action.

 

[decades]

I believe JMDP doesn't really "show his back" at least serving to the deuce court. And I've seen others who seem to have back more perpendicular to the baseline. exception that proves the rule?

 

[tricky]

Just to add . . .

Main reason for hitches is due to people's weight shifting backward during the toss (especially the beginning of the toss.) Without taking care of this part, neither your torso not your shoulder will load/stretch properly in the service motion. And if you do take care of this, your service motion will clean up.

Imagine that, as you separate your tossing hand from the racquet, the back of your head will NOT move any closer to the back fence. This will help you keep your center of gravity slightly in front of you.

In terms of pec stretch . . . this enhances the "pronation" (pronation in informal tennis-speak, not forearm pronation as it is usually understood) of the serve. "Aim" at the ball with your your collarbone (or draw from collarbone to ball.) This will give you the big stretch.

I believe JMDP doesn't really "show his back" at least serving to the deuce court. And I've seen others who seem to have back more perpendicular to the baseline. exception that proves the rule?

Generally, service motions with more "back" reflect a twist in the upper abdominal area. If you divided your torso across the sternum, the "upper" torso is twisting around the "lower" torso like a wet towel being squeezed dry. This helps you create a heavier serve.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Hey tricky, great to see you posting again! Don't think that I've seen anything from you in nearly a year. When you put "pronation" in quotes, are your referrring to internal shoulder rotation combined with forearm rotation?

 

[tricky]

More or less . . . "pronation" as a phase of the service motion, which is how it's usually understood.

Most problems with the serve are caused by issues that happen before the ball leaves the hand. Correct those things and the rest takes care of itself.