Shoulder turn overrated on the serve?

Curious

Legend
You know guys like Sampras, McEnroe , Groth who have enormous shoulder turn, so much so that the opponent can see their back during the coiling. On the other hand some others have hardly any shoulder turn like Del Potro, Kyrgios, A.Zverev ( well the last one probably not a great role model given his df record:) but). They start with the chest facing the right fence even more towards the right net post and maintain that the whole time up until they start the swing at the ball.
Anyway my point is could the second style be much more effective for a rec player considering that the first one is really difficult in terms of coordination and balance?




 
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Curious

Legend
Pinpoint stance kind of prevents you from turning your back to the opponent, and tbh, I think is more prone to inconsistency at the rec level than platform stance.
Haven’t checked all the other platform stance guys but Fognini doesn’t seem to turn the shoulders much either.
About the pinpoint being more prone to inconsistency, I guess you have a point especially if the back leg goes too far back with a big rocking motion. If not, maybe not that big of an issue.


 

Curious

Legend
But I concede . Back tends to be turned more towards the opponent with platform stance. Wasn’t my main point anyway.
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
Record yourself in high speed video and compare with ATP pros. Look up ISR, waiter's tray error, motion blur, Ellenbecker.

Seriously though, I agree with OP. As long as there is some turn action. The shoulder turn component of the serve is part of the big muscles contribution (similarly to knee bend) so it doesn't have to be extensive to be effective IMO. Roddick didn't have a big turn.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Pinpoint stance kind of prevents you from turning your back to the opponent, and tbh, I think is more prone to inconsistency at the rec level than platform stance.
There are more moving parts [literally] with pinpoint plus another golden opportunity to foot fault plus a chance to uncoil too soon.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@Curious @Rubens

By shoulder turn, I assume you mean the coiling of the upper torso. No, not over-rated. 90° of turn is still a fair amount of coiling. You still have a goodly amount of uncoil even if the coil is not extreme. I'd say that Roddick and many other elite servers employ at least 120° of coil. Kyrgios, perhaps less than ARod.




 

Digital Atheist

Professional
Anyway my point is could the second style be much more effective for a rec player considering that the first one is really difficult in terms of coordination and balance?
Really interesting topic. Salzenstein loves the shoulder turn "first move" and is really big on coiling (sooner rather than later). Macci on the other hand is not big on coiling, at least when it comes to the first serve and learning proper form. He actively discourages it and is more into the tilt backward, building a hesitation at the trophy or power position to prevent leaking in, and keeping the weight back longer until the unloading/leg drive phase begins.

Delpo reaches a good traditional trophy position, with "some" coil but his elbow is well positioned. Actually, thinking about it, he also has a hesitation and fits the Macci model very well.


That part from 5:40 (link is timestamped) talks more about the tilt and how less twist is better. And I'm sure you've seen him talking about a hesitation to fix bad timing (4:44).


By shoulder turn, I assume you mean the coiling of the upper torso. No, not over-rated. 90° of turn is still a fair amount of coiling. You still have a goodly amount of uncoil even if the coil is not extreme. I'd say that Roddick and many other elite servers employ at least 120° of coil. Kyrgios, perhaps less than ARod.
Not a lot of coil but Kyrgios does do something resembling "elbow the enemy" and reaches a good power position. This is something I'd like to learn more about because there are quite varying recommendations from at least two highly qualified coaches. I wonder what the Serve Doctor's (Pat Dougherty) take on all this is.

What is your opinion on Berrettini's service action?


Frame advance that serve at 55 seconds.

For me, Pancho Gonzales resembles his shoulder turn and elbow position alignment (1:28):

I don't see Berrettini or Gonzales having a shoulder-shoulder-elbow alignment (the elbow seems less rotated than the shoulder line, which is the opposite of elbow the enemy). Here's an image I used from another thread (elbows aren't actually low, that is just camera angle).


Looking at some amateur footage, here is a great match between two excellent players.


At 6:06 , frame advance yellow's serve and check his position as leg drive starts. Look at the wrist lay-back, open racquet face, lack of coil (elbow looks low but it might not be since camera angles can be deceptive). Compare it to the lefty who appears to have a very sound technically correct motion. Lefty has an excellent serve but Yellow's is a monster and his percentages are ridiculous (end of video).

Don't get me wrong, I still think a moderate coil, a good elbow and power position (Kyrgios as a base reference) is important to focus on. But for some, those two aspects don't seem relevant when it comes to generating power. :confused:
 
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Curious

Legend
He actively discourages it and is more into the tilt backward, building a hesitation at the trophy or power position to prevent leaking in, and keeping the weight back longer until the unloading/leg drive phase begins.
Kyrgios does do something resembling "elbow the enemy" and reaches a good power position.
Agreed fully.
Lefty has an excellent serve but Yellow's is a monster and his percentages are ridiculous (end of video).
Lefty’s serve is great. Yellow does a lot of weird stuff but still hits big serves. Must have a really fast arm.
 

Curious

Legend
If you avoid Sampras type big shoulder turn you’ll probably miss out a little on power but I’m sure your consistency and placement will improve. Because Sampras style is too demanding if you’re not athletic enough. For the average rec player it will mess things up.
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
By shoulder turn, I assume you mean the coiling of the upper torso. No, not over-rated. 90° of turn is still a fair amount of coiling. You still have a goodly amount of uncoil even if the coil is not extreme. I'd say that Roddick and many other elite servers employ at least 120° of coil. Kyrgios, perhaps less than ARod.
I agree Roddick's turn is over 90, but I'd say it's closer to 90 than to 120.. At the trophy phase, his extensive horizontal shoulder abduction of the hitting arm and horizontal shoulder adduction of the tossing arm give the impression that he coils his torso more than he actually does, because it pulls his shirt into that direction. But as you said, even 90 is a fair amount of coiling.
 
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Rubens

Hall of Fame
Really interesting topic. Salzenstein loves the shoulder turn "first move" and is really big on coiling (sooner rather than later). Macci on the other hand is not big on coiling, at least when it comes to the first serve and learning proper form. He actively discourages it and is more into the tilt backward, building a hesitation at the trophy or power position to prevent leaking in, and keeping the weight back longer until the unloading/leg drive phase begins.

[...]

This is something I'd like to learn more about because there are quite varying recommendations from at least two highly qualified coaches. I wonder what the Serve Doctor's (Pat Dougherty) take on all this is.
From what I see in his MPH video course, what Pat emphasizes is a coil of the torso relative to the hips, meaning that at trophy phase, the torso is turned back more than the hips, creating a coil at the waist. He calls it the "spring coil".

Interesting topic indeed. As you said, there's a lot of variability between instructors. And between pros as well. Many of the top servers do very well without a pronounced coil.
 

Digital Atheist

Professional
From what I see in his MPH video course, what Pat emphasizes is a coil of the torso relative to the hips, meaning that at trophy phase, the torso is turned back more than the hips, creating a coil at the waist. He calls it the "spring coil".

Interesting topic indeed. As you said, there's a lot of variability between instructors. And between pros as well. Many of the top servers do very well without a pronounced coil.
Thanks for the MPH reference, that's good information. That would make this representative of his overall philosophy.
 

nyta2

Professional
From what I see in his MPH video course, what Pat emphasizes is a coil of the torso relative to the hips, meaning that at trophy phase, the torso is turned back more than the hips, creating a coil at the waist. He calls it the "spring coil".

Interesting topic indeed. As you said, there's a lot of variability between instructors. And between pros as well. Many of the top servers do very well without a pronounced coil.
that's been my mental model...
less important to get my chest turned to the back fence, as it is to make sure there's a decent separation angle between my hips and shoulder.
that said, i'm a pin point server...

platform servers might derive more power from the leg drive/hip snap
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
that's been my mental model...
less important to get my chest turned to the back fence, as it is to make sure there's a decent separation angle between my hips and shoulder.
that said, i'm a pin point server...

platform servers might derive more power from the leg drive/hip snap
That's one of the places a lot of people screw up their pinpoint serves. When they step forward with the back foot, they lose the separation between hips and shoulders and as S&V-not_dead_yet said, they uncoil too soon.
 

nyta2

Professional
That's one of the places a lot of people screw up their pinpoint serves. When they step forward with the back foot, they lose the separation between hips and shoulders and as S&V-not_dead_yet said, they uncoil too soon.
yup, i had that problem for a while.
 

Curiosity

Professional
The question, whether a big rotation back of the shoulders matters, overlooks what really does matter. Also, in comparing the platform and pin-point servers, you're missing a key difference between those styles that matters, which is the orientation of their feet, which is always much more forward-pointing into launch than that of the big turn-back guys. I'll explain. You critique. It's about what coiling is, and what uncoiling does:

(This is long. Begin to read at your own risk. Nonetheless, I think it is essential material in differentiating and understanding the two main forms of serve.)

Forget all the blather about how in the uncoiling the point is to transfer energy (in foot pounds!) up, measured by Newtonian Ground Reaction Force. No! When you coil what you are doing is all about muscles, a sequence. Forget foot pounds of energy:

The main extensor (straightener) of the legs/knees is the Quadriceps Femoris on each leg, a group of four muscles that run from the tibia (calf bone) joined in one common tendon that runs through the patella, knee cap, until three of the four segments/fiber groups are anchored to the upper part of the upper leg, the femor. It is the fourth member of the Quads group that matters: It attaches to the Illium, the pelvic bone, on the same side as the Quad you are relaxing or contracting.

When you bend/flex the knees even a little, this relaxes the tug of the quads on the hips so that the hips can rotate back a bit in the "unit turn" in tension against the leg. You soon run out of room. The hips can't pull farther. The initial knee flex is mandatory for hip rotation.

You can test this for yourself: Stand with feet together, legs straight, and rotate your hips/torso clockwise, as in a forehand: You won't get far. Now repeat this test, but with your knees bent as in a serve (or forehand): Try to rotate back as in a forehand. You'll find that you can rotate your hips farther around because there is less tension from the quads on the hips. This is good. It means you'll get more power in your ultimate forward torso/shoulder rotation and therefore stably into your racquet head's velocity.

The torso rotators are the Abdominal Obliques, Interior and Exterior. They come in a pair on both sides, the interior and exterior oblique. The interior oblique on one side automatically works with the exterior oblique on your other side...to rotate the torso. The right exterior oblique when flexed rotates the torso to the left. The left interior oblique when flexed also rotates the torso to the left. The obliques are anchored at one end to the hips (illiac crest, pelvis) and at the other end to various ribs, since the muscle has many bands or threads at the rib-cage end. When the hips align with the femurs upon leg extension the obliques are triggered, tugged, and they pull the rib-cage medially, to the center.

In the unit-turn or turn-back preparing for a forehand or serve, then, you've bent your knees a little to allow the hips to turn farther back. On top of that you rotate your torso/shoulders even farther back than the hips, stretching one pair of the obliques: This "farther" turn-back of the shoulders (vis a vis the hips) is called attaining "separation angle." It is a key indicator that the forward stroke can be or will be fast. (ITF Handbook, "Coaching the Advanced Player: The Forehand.)

NOTE key to the great "turn back" question: For the coiling, the turning back, to be effective, you need to have at least on foot planted and facing slightly toward the net before final turn-back extent, relative to how far you rotate back. This is so that that leg’s femur is facing somewhat toward the net compared to the hips and torso, so that leg extension pulls the hips and torso in that direction. If you launch your forehand by extending the right leg, it is the right foot that must be planted BEFORE you have fully turned back. (You can, and many players do, plant the left foot more forward-pointing instead, but they must then shift their weight onto that left foot and extend the left leg to max torso rotation.) The planted foot provides a stop, ultimately, to the rotation of the hips back. That rotation needs to stop at some point so that the shoulders can turn back yet farther than the hips in tension. You'll figure out why when you read the uncoiling explanation below... (Laugh. If your hips are turned back farther than your shoulders/ribs, the whole uncoiling thing doesn’t work so well. Laugh.)

So, when in correct position rotated back in prep for a serve or forehand, you have flexed knees, a planted foot, hips turned back as much as is comfortable, and the torso/shoulders rotated back even farther (and you've taken your racquet back or up, of course). You’re ready to launch rotation: The quads were relaxed a bit by bending the knees, but then one thread was stretched a bit by hip rotation. The obliques are stretched by your rotation back of the chest/shoulders. You're ready to go: In the serve three things happen simultaneously: You throw the tossing arm forward, you extend your legs, you toss or throw the racquet back, down.

Extending the legs, i.e. straightening the knees, done by the Quads, simultaneously pulls on the pelvic connection of the quads, pulling the hips into alignment with the legs. (This alignment also happens when you perform the sequence in the opposite direction for a backhand. When the legs straighten, they pull the hips into alignment with the femurs no matter which way the hips were out of alignment the moment before...)

When the Quadraceps (quads) pulled the hips around to line up with the femurs (upper leg bones), the hips in turn pull on, trigger, the obliques, causing the torso to line up with the hips.

It is this muscle sequence that contain the meaning, the importance, of the "coiling and uncoiling," something almost all coaches leave as a mystery. I'm on very secure ground. "To err in teaching amounts to deliberate sin."

Once the legs have extended, they've done their job, fast or slow, and you might as well be in the air. Once the hips have lined up, they've done their job, rotating the torso. Once the torso, hips, and legs are lined up, the torso can still rotate farther, but the forearm, small shoulder muscles, the lats etc. add the last velocity and spin via internal shoulder rotation into contact, ISR.

SO, at last THE PAYOFF: You will notice, in your example photos, that the pin-point guys bring their back foot up and both feet, planted, are pointing more toward the net than the "big turn-back of the shoulders platform guys." The point? The Question is NOT how far you turn back, but how far your hips, then shoulders, are turned back relative to the planted foot. Both styles rely on triggering the uncoiling by extending the legs. The planted foot (or feet) just prior to launch determines the orientation of the femur, the final determinant of tension on the hips (Illium). There are other advantages to each style. I hope they're obvious. But, both styles are primarily subject to the effectiveness of the coil and the speed of extension, the uncoil.

There. I told you it was long, but you said you were Curious. Robert Ludlum writes at even greater length, but then his stories are more exciting...
 

Curious

Legend
The question, whether a big rotation back of the shoulders matters, overlooks what really does matter. Also, in comparing the platform and pin-point servers, you're missing a key difference between those styles that matters, which is the orientation of their feet, which is always much more forward-pointing into launch than that of the big turn-back guys. I'll explain. You critique. It's about what coiling is, and what uncoiling does:

(This is long. Begin to read at your own risk. Nonetheless, I think it is essential material in differentiating and understanding the two main forms of serve.)

Forget all the blather about how in the uncoiling the point is to transfer energy (in foot pounds!) up, measured by Newtonian Ground Reaction Force. No! When you coil what you are doing is all about muscles, a sequence. Forget foot pounds of energy:

The main extensor (straightener) of the legs/knees is the Quadriceps Femoris on each leg, a group of four muscles that run from the tibia (calf bone) joined in one common tendon that runs through the patella, knee cap, until three of the four segments/fiber groups are anchored to the upper part of the upper leg, the femor. It is the fourth member of the Quads group that matters: It attaches to the Illium, the pelvic bone, on the same side as the Quad you are relaxing or contracting.

When you bend/flex the knees even a little, this relaxes the tug of the quads on the hips so that the hips can rotate back a bit in the "unit turn" in tension against the leg. You soon run out of room. The hips can't pull farther. The initial knee flex is mandatory for hip rotation.

You can test this for yourself: Stand with feet together, legs straight, and rotate your hips/torso clockwise, as in a forehand: You won't get far. Now repeat this test, but with your knees bent as in a serve (or forehand): Try to rotate back as in a forehand. You'll find that you can rotate your hips farther around because there is less tension from the quads on the hips. This is good. It means you'll get more power in your ultimate forward torso/shoulder rotation and therefore stably into your racquet head's velocity.

The torso rotators are the Abdominal Obliques, Interior and Exterior. They come in a pair on both sides, the interior and exterior oblique. The interior oblique on one side automatically works with the exterior oblique on your other side...to rotate the torso. The right exterior oblique when flexed rotates the torso to the left. The left interior oblique when flexed also rotates the torso to the left. The obliques are anchored at one end to the hips (illiac crest, pelvis) and at the other end to various ribs, since the muscle has many bands or threads at the rib-cage end. When the hips align with the femurs upon leg extension the obliques are triggered, tugged, and they pull the rib-cage medially, to the center.

In the unit-turn or turn-back preparing for a forehand or serve, then, you've bent your knees a little to allow the hips to turn farther back. On top of that you rotate your torso/shoulders even farther back than the hips, stretching one pair of the obliques: This "farther" turn-back of the shoulders (vis a vis the hips) is called attaining "separation angle." It is a key indicator that the forward stroke can be or will be fast. (ITF Handbook, "Coaching the Advanced Player: The Forehand.)

NOTE key to the great "turn back" question: For the coiling, the turning back, to be effective, you need to have at least on foot planted and facing slightly toward the net before final turn-back extent, relative to how far you rotate back. This is so that that leg’s femur is facing somewhat toward the net compared to the hips and torso, so that leg extension pulls the hips and torso in that direction. If you launch your forehand by extending the right leg, it is the right foot that must be planted BEFORE you have fully turned back. (You can, and many players do, plant the left foot more forward-pointing instead, but they must then shift their weight onto that left foot and extend the left leg to max torso rotation.) The planted foot provides a stop, ultimately, to the rotation of the hips back. That rotation needs to stop at some point so that the shoulders can turn back yet farther than the hips in tension. You'll figure out why when you read the uncoiling explanation below... (Laugh. If your hips are turned back farther than your shoulders/ribs, the whole uncoiling thing doesn’t work so well. Laugh.)

So, when in correct position rotated back in prep for a serve or forehand, you have flexed knees, a planted foot, hips turned back as much as is comfortable, and the torso/shoulders rotated back even farther (and you've taken your racquet back or up, of course). You’re ready to launch rotation: The quads were relaxed a bit by bending the knees, but then one thread was stretched a bit by hip rotation. The obliques are stretched by your rotation back of the chest/shoulders. You're ready to go: In the serve three things happen simultaneously: You throw the tossing arm forward, you extend your legs, you toss or throw the racquet back, down.

Extending the legs, i.e. straightening the knees, done by the Quads, simultaneously pulls on the pelvic connection of the quads, pulling the hips into alignment with the legs. (This alignment also happens when you perform the sequence in the opposite direction for a backhand. When the legs straighten, they pull the hips into alignment with the femurs no matter which way the hips were out of alignment the moment before...)

When the Quadraceps (quads) pulled the hips around to line up with the femurs (upper leg bones), the hips in turn pull on, trigger, the obliques, causing the torso to line up with the hips.

It is this muscle sequence that contain the meaning, the importance, of the "coiling and uncoiling," something almost all coaches leave as a mystery. I'm on very secure ground. "To err in teaching amounts to deliberate sin."

Once the legs have extended, they've done their job, fast or slow, and you might as well be in the air. Once the hips have lined up, they've done their job, rotating the torso. Once the torso, hips, and legs are lined up, the torso can still rotate farther, but the forearm, small shoulder muscles, the lats etc. add the last velocity and spin via internal shoulder rotation into contact, ISR.

SO, at last THE PAYOFF: You will notice, in your example photos, that the pin-point guys bring their back foot up and both feet, planted, are pointing more toward the net than the "big turn-back of the shoulders platform guys." The point? The Question is NOT how far you turn back, but how far your hips, then shoulders, are turned back relative to the planted foot. Both styles rely on triggering the uncoiling by extending the legs. The planted foot (or feet) just prior to launch determines the orientation of the femur, the final determinant of tension on the hips (Illium). There are other advantages to each style. I hope they're obvious. But, both styles are primarily subject to the effectiveness of the coil and the speed of extension, the uncoil.

There. I told you it was long, but you said you were Curious. Robert Ludlum writes at even greater length, but then his stories are more exciting...
I’ll get back to you once I’ve finished my anatomy degree!
 

Digital Atheist

Professional
You can test this for yourself: Stand with feet together, legs straight, and rotate your hips/torso clockwise, as in a forehand: You won't get far. Now repeat this test, but with your knees bent as in a serve (or forehand): Try to rotate back as in a forehand. You'll find that you can rotate your hips farther around because there is less tension from the quads on the hips. This is good. It means you'll get more power in your ultimate forward torso/shoulder rotation and therefore stably into your racquet head's velocity.
If I understand correctly (a big "if"), that sounds something like the exercise Mark Kovacs really likes, where you bend and rotate back and down to pick up a ball.

 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
They start with the chest facing the right fence even more towards the right net post and maintain that the whole time up until they start the swing at the ball.
Anyway my point is could the second style be much more effective for a rec player considering that the first one is really difficult in terms of coordination and balance?
Like so many things we discuss, shoulder turn on the Serve is pretty much like shoulder turn on the Fh......it is a matter of amplitude, not right or wrong.

The problem I see is that so many coaches are trying to put players in a position of max amplitude before the player has developed the fundamental basics that can use the mechanics of amplitude. By working on, and developing the basics before going big, adding a bit more turn for amplitude is a much more natural later in the process.

When coaches put players in these power positions before the fundamentals are squared away, the player will often no have the base to make use of this positioning ....especially on serve where the shoulder action is typically so misunderstood anyway.
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Only read the OP, but.

People are different. And so are the players. Some are ticking like one-two, one-two, others are like one-two-three-four, smash it!

It is the inner clock, that determines, wether you only need a tight and short moves to load. I am of the slower clock guy, and people do not get it, why I can serve them bombs. But I can. Exactly same thing with golf. Clubhead speed in both sports is the essential, it does not matter, how you generate it as long as it is there.

Good understanding of kinematics helps a lot. But the important is to know, how-to. If you try to get a big shoulder turn being the one-two fast inner clock guy, you never get fast racket head, but decelerate thru impact.

Also the arm whip is something I never hear coaches talking about. They often talk about positions and pronation and stuff, but never really about the most important thing in any shot, the rythm.

Hence I do hear them talk about timing. In tennis timing is most often a misconception of when to make your shot according to the ball. First one needs to understand their inner clock and the sequence of a shot. It is only after that, they can start addjusting their shot-rythm to match the incoming (tossed ball on a serve) ball.

I have the capability to see, which way it is, but it is really hard to get a person to understand, what I see. Really often it happens, that those in urge to get better do not understand either the mechanics or the dynamics of a shot. It is a crid-lock right then and there, cause, if one see a big turn and pursue it, yet has not the attributes to exploit the excess, it will be in vain.

As anexample, it could be, that one has a grip tooweak to do the things, he sees in a top player vid. Or the stance would not allow such a big shoulder turn, they urge to infuse into their serve...
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Like so many things we discuss, shoulder turn on the Serve is pretty much like shoulder turn on the Fh......it is a matter of amplitude, not right or wrong.

The problem I see is that so many coaches are trying to put players in a position of max amplitude before the player has developed the fundamental basics that can use the mechanics of amplitude. By working on, and developing the basics before going big, adding a bit more turn for amplitude is a much more natural later in the process.

When coaches put players in these power positions before the fundamentals are squared away, the player will often no have the base to make use of this positioning ....especially on serve where the shoulder action is typically so misunderstood anyway.
Very, very well said!

However, amplitude, the length of moves is relative to the rythm, which I think should be understood more profoundly.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
You can talk miles and nautical miles, even furlongs of how deep a squat you’d need, but it will not get you anywhere, unless you first understand the conception of kinetic rythm, the sequence by which your body will fire your arm and hand making it move at the highest possible speed or rate of circumferential speed.

next step would be the transfer from circular to linear getting the ball go, where you want it to go.
 

Curious

Legend
So I received my new PT 2.0 yesterday and thought I should have a hit after about 2 months of no tennis.
And of course I practiced my minimal shoulder turn serve ala Kyrgios. Toss in front of me to where I’ll be hitting the ball. No mucking around with ‘j toss’ , ‘toss parallel to the baseline’ and stuff.


 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
So I received my new PT 2.0 yesterday and thought I should have a hit after about 2 months of no tennis.
And of course I practiced my minimal shoulder turn serve ala Kyrgios. Toss in front of me to where I’ll be hitting the ball. No mucking around with ‘j toss’ , ‘toss parallel to the baseline’ and stuff.


No mucking around with ‘toss parallel to the baseline’? Really? Looks to my aging eyes that your arm lift appears to be closer to parallel to the baseline than it is toward the target area.

Modest / moderate torso coil. Appears to be adequate; not quite what I'd characterize as minimal. Serve actually it looks pretty decent. One thing that I'd suggest is adjusting your tossing arm pull-down. Better to leave it up (vert) for a split-second longer.

Appears to be dropping a bit before your racket gets to the trophy position. The pull-down should start about the same time that the racket drop does (right after the trophy phase). Delaying it, as suggested, could make for a better spatial reference (between the ball position and the outstretched hand). This might help to provide even better swing timing (not that it's bad now). And can also help a scosh with the optimal swing path for the desired serve.

Delaying the arm pull-down can also facilitate the uncoiling action and the acceleration of the right shoulder, arm and racket.
 

Curious

Legend
No mucking around with ‘toss parallel to the baseline’? Really? Looks to my aging eyes that your arm lift appears to be closer to parallel to the baseline than it is toward the target area.

Modest / moderate torso coil. Appears to be adequate; not quite what I'd characterize as minimal. Serve actually it looks pretty decent. One thing that I'd suggest is adjusting your tossing arm pull-down. Better to leave it up (vert) for a split-second longer.

Appears to be dropping a bit before your racket gets to the trophy position. The pull-down should start about the same time that the racket drop does (right after the trophy phase). Delaying it, as suggested, could make for a better spatial reference (between the ball position and the outstretched hand). This might help to provide even better swing timing (not that it's bad now). And can also help a scosh with the optimal swing path for the desired serve.

Delaying the arm pull-down can also facilitate the uncoiling action and the acceleration of the right shoulder, arm and racket.
Toss not parallel to baseline and not straight forward either, probably in the middle like 45 degrees I think.
My serve rhythm is a quick one for some reason, maybe because my toss is relatively low. That I think prevents my tossing arm from staying up longer. You know guys with quick action like Kyrgios seem to bring the tossing arm quickly. On the other hand guys with a relaxed unrushed serve like Del Potro can do it better. They are also always the high tossers.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Because there is a wide variety of technical and form things even amongst the best pro players, and they all work for them, its only on the TTW forum where average recreational players try to analyze every little detail they see and argue that its crucial and without it your "insert stroke" will not be good and flawed and poor.
 
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golden chicken

Hall of Fame
I also have a low toss and a quick toss arm pull down.

My suggestion would be a little bit more knee bend for more explosion up into the ball, but otherwise nice enough.

On topic, I would say you do a nice job achieving separation by not allowing your chest to open to the court as you bring your foot to pinpoint. And I think you do turn your shouldes back about 45 degrees compared to your start position.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Curious, your "minimal" turn appears to have a fair amount of turn. Your shoulders are closed several degrees to the intended target line. Personally, I think getting shoulder turn and showing some back to the opponent helps a great deal on serve. I get more spin and pace on first serves and keeping the shoulders closed (rotated away from target court) helps a great deal with 2nd serve swing which is up and more to the side that first serve. David Ferrer is a good example of pinpoint style that uses a fair amount of shoulder turn. I'm 63 and don't turn as much as pros with big turns but do work on closing the shoulders. My guess is I closed 20-30 degrees in relation to the center of the target court. I think for rec players, even if you are only closing 10 degrees or so, it will be helpful.
 

Digital Atheist

Professional
No mucking around with ‘toss parallel to the baseline’? Really? Looks to my aging eyes that your arm lift appears to be closer to parallel to the baseline than it is toward the target area.

Modest / moderate torso coil. Appears to be adequate; not quite what I'd characterize as minimal. Serve actually it looks pretty decent. One thing that I'd suggest is adjusting your tossing arm pull-down. Better to leave it up (vert) for a split-second longer.

Appears to be dropping a bit before your racket gets to the trophy position. The pull-down should start about the same time that the racket drop does (right after the trophy phase). Delaying it, as suggested, could make for a better spatial reference (between the ball position and the outstretched hand). This might help to provide even better swing timing (not that it's bad now). And can also help a scosh with the optimal swing path for the desired serve.

Delaying the arm pull-down can also facilitate the uncoiling action and the acceleration of the right shoulder, arm and racket.
Agree with this, but your tossing arm position has improved slightly over your earlier serve videos, so that's good.

Edit: Why have you gone from platform to pinpoint again? Do you find it easier on the knees?
 

Curious

Legend
Agree with this, but your tossing arm position has improved slightly over your earlier serve videos, so that's good.

Edit: Why have you gone from platform to pinpoint again? Do you find it easier on the knees?
I was looking for a rhythm that I could repeat 100% every time I serve. I also thought pinpoint feels more natural. The other reason is the momentum gain that I thought could help with serve and volley.
And watching this guy’s serve videos.:) I just love his relaxed rhythm.

 

Dragy

Legend
So I received my new PT 2.0 yesterday and thought I should have a hit after about 2 months of no tennis.
And of course I practiced my minimal shoulder turn serve ala Kyrgios. Toss in front of me to where I’ll be hitting the ball. No mucking around with ‘j toss’ , ‘toss parallel to the baseline’ and stuff.


Aren’t those serves hitting the wall too high? Or are you closer than baseline distance?
 

nyta2

Professional
So I received my new PT 2.0 yesterday and thought I should have a hit after about 2 months of no tennis.
And of course I practiced my minimal shoulder turn serve ala Kyrgios. Toss in front of me to where I’ll be hitting the ball. No mucking around with ‘j toss’ , ‘toss parallel to the baseline’ and stuff.


i think you and i have the same mental model and look of serve...
"j toss" or "toss parallel to baseline", etc... i think are useful when trying to incorporate the shoulder turn with the toss. (preload if you will)
personally i toss more toward the side post, and probably turn slightly more after release, which can be a source of toss inconsistency (ie. i'm fighting keeping my shoulders still for the toss-phase, and turning for the load-phase)
that said, i can see myself needing to revamp my serve/toss/shoulder-turn, if i'm say trying to push into the 100mph+, and squeeze every ounce of mph i can out of my technique.
 

nyta2

Professional
Aren’t those serves hitting the wall too high? Or are you closer than baseline distance?
guessing he's just working on technique vs. serve accuracy.
i like doing that on a wall anyway... eg. focus on the toss, eyes/chest up toward contact, think about the load, etc... without pressure of "getting it in".
when going to a court, i am too tempted to "get it in" and tend not to make tweaks that will lead to an unsatisfying fault.
 

Dragy

Legend
guessing he's just working on technique vs. serve accuracy.
i like doing that on a wall anyway... eg. focus on the toss, eyes/chest up toward contact, think about the load, etc... without pressure of "getting it in".
when going to a court, i am too tempted to "get it in" and tend not to make tweaks that will lead to an unsatisfying fault.
I agree, also have habit of practicing at the wall, and I currently start closer up to not aim against the line draw thereon. It’s only when I feel comfortable with the motion that I move back to get height reference, or farther back (+box length) to have dearth reference.
 
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