Side-by-Side Forum Poster with Waiter's Tray VS High Level ATP Serve with ISR

[Chas Tennis]

Title is not correct.

Whoops! - this serve on the left is NOT a Waiter's Tray even though the racket face faces the sky. There is another serve technique that uses significant ISR but also gets the racket face to face the sky. The messages in the video are describing this other technique, seen on several poster's serve videos out of some hundreds of poster serve videos. I did not remember that I made this video. I have to now check my original 2017 posts analyzing this poster's serve.

You can still view these two serves techniques and compare them -

Forum poster with Waiter's Tray other technique vs high level serve.

Forum ServeDimc Kinovea 8_12_2017

This video has text that lasts only a few frames - not intended for 30 fps playback. Stop video to read text. Kinovea side-by-side comparison of tennis serves.…

vimeo.com

Click Vimeo, go full screen, drag white video time indicator forth & back to display. OR to single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

With Vimeo you can place the cursor on the white time indicator and go forth & back, forth & back,...over and over, you control speed. Once you can catch that white time indicator everyone can see the differences between Waiter's Tray this serve technique and a high level serve as in the ATP.

Observation - the left video ball trajectory is much more in line with the racket head path than the right video because the racket head is rotating from ISR in the asthmuthal direction.

This video also shows why 240 fps is necessary to analyze tennis serves.

This technqque was also performed by @bigservesofthands. Also, there was an older poster from Florida that had this serve technique.

 

[ppma]

I agree it's not waiter's tray, but that racquet face looking at the sky does not seem right for me. Either he is opening too early, or his body position is not too much "hitting shoulder over non-hitting shoulder", or a combination of both.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I agree it's not waiter's tray, but that racquet face looking at the sky does not seem right for me. Either he is opening too early, or his body position is not too much "hitting shoulder over non-hitting shoulder", or a combination of both.

The most common serve technique of active tennis players is the Waiter's Tray, > 60% of active tennis players. Another technique is the high level serve with ISR as used in the ATP. <10%.

After those 2 widely used techniques there are other techniques, a zoo of DIY techniques. This technique with racket face to sky BUT still using significant ISR appeared many times, about 10 times? in some hundreds of forum poster's serves that I analyzed.

I noticed it because I had studied a serving technique by @bigservesofthands. I believe that he reported a serve speed of 131 MPH and that was similar to this technique, with ISR and racket closing as it moved forward. A problem with this 'racket closing' technique is that it develops serving speed by the racket closing as it moves forward. With that technique, errors in timing or positioning will cause the ball trajectory to go high or low and may result in inconsistency. @bigservesofthands complained that one of his serving techniques was not consistent, maybe it was this technique. ? There were posts maybe 10 years ago.

The high level ATP serving technique does not use racket closing so strongly. ISR is performed so that the highest racket speed comes from the azimuthal turning (or side to side) racket head speed component. It seems reasonable to me that the high level ATP technique would be more consistent than racket closing as it moves forward.

This issue is why overheads that use racket mostly closing can be so far off - hit in the bottom of the net - because they may use too much racket closing? An overhead technique should be similar to a serve technique in using ISR for more azimuthal speed.

This issue was very difficult to notice and diagnose. 240 fps needed.

Does this make sense to anyone? @bigservesofthands?

The video presented in the OP can be used to study and compare these 2 techniques.

My advice would be to avoid the technique on the left and go with the high level ATP serve on the right. There were 10 forum servers out there, maybe getting some good pace, with this 3rd technique. I hope that they realize that their application of ISR is not correct and that their arm is tilted too much to the side and that their racket shaft is too vertical for impact from the behind camera view, my opinion.

 

[ppma]

I noticed it because I had studied a serving technique by @bigservesofthands. I believe that he reported a serve speed of 131 MPH and that was similar to this technique, with ISR and racket closing as it moved forward. A problem with this 'racket closing' technique is that it develops serving speed by the racket closing as it moves forward. With that technique, errors in timing or positing will cause the ball trajectory to go high or low and may result in inconsistency. @bigservesofthands complained that one of his serving techniques was not consistent, maybe it was this technique. There were posts maybe 10 years ago.

After another inspection, I am pretty sure to say that the opening of that racquet face comes directly from the wrist being extended (actually it's being actively extended by the player).

No doubt the left technique is inconsistent. Take the case you are a little early sending the ball long by meters is the logic outcome. I could've doing this myself in lazy serves from time to time, especially in 2ndserves.

Overheads are a different story. In the serve you manage time and the rythm shot. In the overhead, the falling ball dictates. The hitting thechnique should be the same, although the preparation and the body involvement is far far different. In any case, the margins are usually bigger in the sense that one is not behind the baseline and don't have to put the ball inside the service box, so one thing compensates the other.

 

[Chas Tennis]

After another inspection, I am pretty sure to say that the opening of that racquet face comes directly from the wrist being extended (actually it's being actively extended by the player).

No doubt the left technique is inconsistent. Take the case you are a little early sending the ball long by meters is the logic outcome. I could've doing this myself in lazy serves from time to time, especially in 2ndserves.

Overheads are a different story. In the serve you manage time and the rythm shot. In the overhead, the falling ball dictates. The hitting thechnique should be the same, although the preparation and the body involvement is far far different. In any case, the margins are usually bigger in the sense that one is not behind the baseline and don't have to put the ball inside the service box, so one thing compensates the other.

Video on left - Mostly Racket Closing from more horizontal ISR rotation axis - at impact the top edge of the racket is moving faster. Timing or positioning error result in high or low errors.

Video on right - Mostly Racket Azimuthal Motion from more vertical ISR rotation axis - at impact the side edge of the racket is moving faster, Timing or positioning errors result in more side to side errors.