Side spin on flat serves?

[cukoo]

Do all professional player uses slice/side spin on their first (flat) serve?
Is this done on purpose or a result of pronation?

I've been practicing my serves but is quite confuse about the follow-through. Can anyone guide me step by step of the follow-through of a flat serve after I make contact?

Thanks

 

[CAM178]

I'm not trying to be rude in any way by saying this, but a flat serve can only be flat, and a slice serve can only be a slice. Can you please explain what you mean? Are you trying to hit a harder slice serve?

 

[cukoo]

I've heard that all serve have some type of spin--even Sampras' first serve. I just wanted to confirm this and get some info about pronation and the follow-through.

 

[CAM178]

No, not all serves have some spin. A flat serve is indeed that: flat. One of my favorite serves on the deuce side is a flat serve right up the middle. Players know it's going there, but that doesn't make it easier to hit back. Plus I want them to cheat to the middle so that I can then spin (combo topspin & slice) it wide. I also like the flat serve out wide in the ad court, as the return generally makes for an easy put away.

The good pros will mix up their spins quite a bit. Also, they don't give away which side they are going to hit to. Thusly why so many people get wrong-footed by Fed.

The best way to fool your opponents, IMO, will be your toss. Keep your toss pretty much the same (again, ala Fed), and you will ace a lot more often. Some players you can tell where they're going as you will learn their so-called 'tells'. When someone throws it behind them, there is a good chance that they are going to hit a kicker to your BH (if both players are righties).

When I've aced the most was due to 2 factors: 1. lengthy serve practice sessions with cones, and 2. trading pace for accuracy and angles.

 

[AznHylite]

No, actually, ALL serves have a varying degree of spin. To hit it COMPLETELY flat, you would have to be Ivanisevic! And even he didn't serve completely flat if memory serves me.

 

[CAM178]

No, actually, ALL serves have a varying degree of spin. To hit it COMPLETELY flat, you would have to be Ivanisevic! And even he didn't serve completely flat if memory serves me.

Not true. You can easily hit a completely flat serve. Look no further than a Karlovic serve, or more recently look at some of Tursunov's serves out wide in the ad court. Most serves do have spin, but I can routinely hit a dead-flat first serve no problem. The point for me is that I don't want it to come up much when it's going 120-130. I want it to stay lower.

 

[Bottle Rocket]

One of my favorite videos-->

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=dj_side_serve.swf&size=vertical

Looks like a fairly flat serve to me. It really shows pronation and the contact point well.

If you can consistently hit serves to all locations of the box without using slice or any component of top spin (hard to do even if you try), that would probably be the way to go on first serves. The problem is that its just too hard to do. Consistency and control are more important than pace in most cases, so slice comes into play. Look and the first serves of all the great serves, such as Federer, Roddick, and Sampras. They all have a great amount of spin on them. There is actually a website with some data on how much spin they are actually putting on their serves, I'll see if I can find it...

 

[cukoo]

Wow, I think I finally "got it." Just had a serving practice session where I hit only "flat" serves and for the first time, I was consistently able to hit the ball in.
I probably got it in 6/10 times, might not be that big of a deal but its pretty good for me.

I think that the thing was that previously I was trying to hit it completely flat, without any spin. Today, I hit with some slice and had good results with some decent amount of pace. Looking forward to practice next time.

 

[Tennismastery]

You might think you hit the ball flat...but, most will have spin.

Regarding Sampras, his first serve at 120 mph averaged over 2500 rpm's. Roddick's serve averaged over 1500 rpm's at 130 mph.

I have never seen a 130 mph serve land in without this element of proper spin. Unless you are over 8 feet tall, a serve at this speed will need some downward arc over the net and into the box to land in.

John Yandell (TennisPlayer.net) did a very extensive study on this about 4 years ago.

 

[Final_Match_Point]

Wasn't it proven that a completely flat serve with NO spin is impossible? Its a combination of spin and at all levels serves have some spin. Its just that topspin serves have more spin than a flat serve, not because a flat serve has NO spin

 

[Tennismastery]

Wasn't it proven that a completely flat serve with NO spin is impossible? Its a combination of spin and at all levels serves have some spin. Its just that topspin serves have more spin than a flat serve, not because a flat serve has NO spin

This is correct and a good summation of this point.

 

[cukoo]

^Great of hear you guys confirm that spin is in fact necessary on a flat serve. Yeah I just found that out...

So, isn't the "flat" serve just kind of like a really fast slice serve?

 

[quicken]

really fast topspin serve no?

 

[cukoo]

really fast topspin serve no?

I don't quite really understand...

I feel that a topspin ball travels through the air slower than a ball with slice/side spin. Anyone else agree? It's just a feeling I have and from some experiences.
So I don't think topspin would be useful as a first serve if you (I) am looking for more pace on the ball.

 

[Final_Match_Point]

I think aggassi used the slice first serve to great effect. Top spin I think travels slower because you add more spin to make the ball come down, and allowing you to hit above the net more.

Don't discount the topspin serve as a first serve. A heavy topspin serve that jumps and accelerates after the bounce is sometimes even harder to counter than a flat serve

 

[Tennismastery]

If anyone is interested, the feature article I just did for TennisOne (which came out today) is on this very issue. Included, some high speed footage showing both the so-called "flat" serve (showing the actions of the racquet and how spin will still be a component) and the more significant "spin" serve.

 

[cukoo]

^Yeah, I see it on the home page of tennisone.com but is unable to read it because I'm not subscribed to it. Do I need to pay or will i be able to read it by just signing up for a membership at tennisone.com?
Thanks

 

[AznHylite]

Not true. You can easily hit a completely flat serve. Look no further than a Karlovic serve, or more recently look at some of Tursunov's serves out wide in the ad court. Most serves do have spin, but I can routinely hit a dead-flat first serve no problem. The point for me is that I don't want it to come up much when it's going 120-130. I want it to stay lower.

If you read some of the later posts in this topic, you will see that you are wrong.

 

[Tennismastery]

^Yeah, I see it on the home page of tennisone.com but is unable to read it because I'm not subscribed to it. Do I need to pay or will i be able to read it by just signing up for a membership at tennisone.com?
Thanks

You can sign up for a free month on the home page. Then you would be able to read it and the some 800 other lessons...as well as all the other features. It is certainly worth the $50/year subscription; however, I just wanted to let you know that this topic is covered by this article. Hope you get something out of it.

 

[cukoo]

^ I don't have a credit card so I won't be able to apply for a fee trial but no matter. Maybe I will join during the Christmas time.

But back on topic, can the flat serve be considered a slice serve with a lot of pace and less spin? I don't have a coach/pro or anything, I just try to learn the game pieces by pieces by myself and from info from the internet. If someone would have told me that the "flat" serve is hit the way you hit the slice serve, I would had a bunch of an easier time learning the first serve.
Suggestion/ comments?

 

[Nellie]

Either a slice or kick serve can be used as a first serve. Federer regularly hits first serves with heavy slice and aces people. His ball, similar to Sampras, has a lot of action.

As TennisMastery says above, the first serve/ second serve can be hit with similar stokes, but with more of forward contact on the first, and more side/spin on the second.