Since 75% of people playing USTA in my area foot fault..

dman72

Hall of Fame
..explain to me why I shouldn't start my serve a half foot inside the court like most of them? If I had 5 hard flat first serves that clip the tape in a match, that's 5 potential aces or service winners I'm giving up.

And yes, I've seen my serve on video, I don't foot fault.

I was watching a doubles league match made up of 4.0 and 4.5 USTA players at my club. 3 courts going, at one point all 3 servers were foot faulting..on every serve.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
lol, i've asked that question too... even played that way at least once against a blatant foot faulter and s&v'er (ie. he would shuffle 1-2ft over the baseline before making contact, then come to net)... i called him on it... he told me to f'off... so i started my serve 2ft inside the baseline... arguments followed... i think i won, but who knows, who cares...
in the end it's not that important... if someone goes over the line by a new inches in rec. certainly not important enough to start a fight over it especially when there's no official
id' bet the majority of blatant foot faulters have poor serve technique anyway, not that mine is great, but i do make sure i'm not foot faulting when i practice (ie. put a racquet down in front of me, hop over it on the serve)
i haven't run into a blatant footfaulters (at 4.5) in at least a decade, but i agree, most rec folks footfault, especially at 4.0 and lower.
 

mogo

Semi-Pro
I'm not saying to foot fault or not. I think the question would be can the returner hit back your serve deep and at your feet if you are well inside the baseline after completing your service motion. Then go from there and also maybe try that tactic on his serve as well. If not maybe an official, but in my experience it depends on the official you call.
 

SavvyStringer

Professional
lol, i've asked that question too... even played that way at least once against a blatant foot faulter and s&v'er (ie. he would shuffle 1-2ft over the baseline before making contact, then come to net)... i called him on it... he told me to f'off... so i started my serve 2ft inside the baseline... arguments followed... i think i won, but who knows, who cares...
in the end it's not that important... if someone goes over the line by a new inches in rec. certainly not important enough to start a fight over it especially when there's no official
id' bet the majority of blatant foot faulters have poor serve technique anyway, not that mine is great, but i do make sure i'm not foot faulting when i practice (ie. put a racquet down in front of me, hop over it on the serve)
i haven't run into a blatant footfaulters (at 4.5) in at least a decade, but i agree, most rec folks footfault, especially at 4.0 and lower.

I had the same problem with a guy in the finals of state one year. I refused to play his serves and called the scores after he would call them. Ended up having to have an official watch almost the entirety of the match.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
That is why I believe that a majority of players 4.5 and below should not even be considered as tennis players. Foot faulting is not part of tennis. Period.
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
I do have a real question about this: why do players place their lead foot *soooo* close to the baseline, like a hair's-width? It just seems to ask for problems. I cannot stand foot-faulting, and I purposefully place the tip of my lead foot at least an inch or so behind the line just to give myself margin so that I do not FF. As an average player, I have been complimented on my serve, both power and ability to spin/place it where I want -- it is an area of strength for me, and I get my share of aces/unreturnable serves. So I just don't understand -- if I can be effective while giving myself margin, why do so many people start their motion so close to the line, effectively inviting risk of a FF? What do they gain with that inch?
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
I do have a real question about this: why do players place their lead foot *soooo* close to the baseline, like a hair's-width? It just seems to ask for problems.

You know, i've asked myself this. I have a theory:

People do it because they use it to line themselves up. The closer to the line, the more accurately they feel they are lined up.

Just try standing 6" in front of in back of the line. It feels really weird, doesnt it?
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
It seems that 50% of players believe that 75% of players footfault but that they themselves are definitely in the 25% that do not.
It seems that the guys who post something like "it seems that 50% of players believe that 75% of players footfault, but that they themselves are definitely in the 25% that do not", actually foot faults 100% of the time, and hence likes to imply that it isn't a big deal.
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
lol, i've asked that question too... even played that way at least once against a blatant foot faulter and s&v'er (ie. he would shuffle 1-2ft over the baseline before making contact, then come to net)... i called him on it... he told me to f'off... so i started my serve 2ft inside the baseline... arguments followed... i think i won, but who knows, who cares...
in the end it's not that important... if someone goes over the line by a new inches in rec. certainly not important enough to start a fight over it especially when there's no official
id' bet the majority of blatant foot faulters have poor serve technique anyway, not that mine is great, but i do make sure i'm not foot faulting when i practice (ie. put a racquet down in front of me, hop over it on the serve)
i haven't run into a blatant footfaulters (at 4.5) in at least a decade, but i agree, most rec folks footfault, especially at 4.0 and lower.

I'll put it this way...most of the guys I play don't hit serves hard enough for it to make a difference. But one guy I hit with recently did..he is a 4.5 USTA, a very good player, and a nice guy..but I've watched him play from the gallery, and he hits every serve with his left foot sliding 6 to 12 inches inside the baseline. He's an average height guy, 5' 9 or 5' 10. I'm not going to do the trigonometry, but those 8 inches inside the line probably equate to an inch or 2 of extra effective height.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I'll put it this way...most of the guys I play don't hit serves hard enough for it to make a difference. But one guy I hit with recently did..he is a 4.5 USTA, a very good player, and a nice guy..but I've watched him play from the gallery, and he hits every serve with his left foot sliding 6 to 12 inches inside the baseline. He's an average height guy, 5' 9 or 5' 10. I'm not going to do the trigonometry, but those 8 inches inside the line probably equate to an inch or 2 of extra effective height.
Then just call "footfault" on every serve. Problem solved.

But just so we are clear, he's going 12 inches inside the baseline? Counting the line (which is 3 inches I think, though I didn't check), he's foot faulting 15 inches.

So what you are saying is that his foot is fully inside the line. Not even touching the line. But fully inside on his serves. Wow, that's amazing.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
..explain to me why I shouldn't start my serve a half foot inside the court like most of them? If I had 5 hard flat first serves that clip the tape in a match, that's 5 potential aces or service winners I'm giving up.

And yes, I've seen my serve on video, I don't foot fault.

I was watching a doubles league match made up of 4.0 and 4.5 USTA players at my club. 3 courts going, at one point all 3 servers were foot faulting..on every serve.

No explanation is needed: just do it and see what kind of results you get.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Then just call "footfault" on every serve. Problem solved.

But just so we are clear, he's going 12 inches inside the baseline? Counting the line (which is 3 inches I think, though I didn't check), he's foot faulting 15 inches.

So what you are saying is that his foot is fully inside the line. Not even touching the line. But fully inside on his serves. Wow, that's amazing.
while, you're right, it's a recipe for having no friends :p
folks who foot fault that bad, have no control over their toss, and no way can they hit spin and/or sync all their power sources,... so the serve, while better than a dink serve, probably sucks anyway.
 

Bluefan75

Professional
while, you're right, it's a recipe for having no friends :p
folks who foot fault that bad, have no control over their toss, and no way can they hit spin and/or sync all their power sources,... so the serve, while better than a dink serve, probably sucks anyway.

You know what I have discovered? There are people who genuinely don't realize what they are doing, and when you tell them about it(on a changeover, not a call after a serve), they are grateful and actually make an attempt to fix it. those who flip out, know they are doing it and hope that their behavior intimidates you into backing down.

But just like it's harder to hit a shot down the line because the net is higher, it is harder to hit the serve you want *while* keeping your feet in a legal position. Why do they get that pass? I'm really having to wonder if someone who fits into the second group I mentioned is someone I want to be friends with anyway.

Again, I'm not talking about a toe on the back of the line. I'm talking about blatant stepping into the court. At least make an effort to respect the rule.
 
Was watching some rec club dubs yesterday from the sidelines, a men's and a women's matches, 3.5/4.0, and at least three out of the four on each court FF'ed on each serve, minimally starting with one foot ON the line to a full step into the court. Discussing it at the rec/club level is strictly academic, no one calls it and no one will at that level, for for fear of being drummed out of the fraternity/sorority, and having their bar-stool rights revoked. FF'ing will only become an issue if the perps are on a team that makes it to play-offs, where there are roving officials where they will be punnished. And, being called on it is becoming less likely since the "Serena $92,000" event, with tournament officials tending to ignore FF's too feeling the pressure from the collective meme. The only players who will not FF, are those who have played competitively with officials calling them, or players who had good coaching early on.

I've never seen a club/social clinic where the pro made a point of instructing on FF prevention--and it ain't gonna' happen--teaching pros don't want to risk offending their clients losing money. So, discussion of FF's at the rec/club level are strictly academic, and only to be found at forums like this. Tournament players will not FF because they have learned that they will be penalized for it they've fixed the bad habit. It's like speeding on the hi-way, until you get a ticket you will keep inching your way up the speedometer, testing the speed limits. After you get busted, and it costs you a few hundred bucks, you'll adhere to the limit--for at least a year or two.

The players who will be penalized for FF'ing at the rec/club level are the ones who don't FF--if an inch, or, 6", or a foot doesn't matter while serving from the baseline, then it certainly won't make a difference from the other side of the net--my line calls suddenly got blurry. Virtue signaling should be reserved for the things that really matter on the court and we have control over--like the frame, strings, balls, beer and the clothes we choose.
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
Tournament players will not FF because they have learned that they will be penalized for it they've fixed the bad habit. It's like speeding on the hi-way, until you get a ticket you will keep inching your way up the speedometer, testing the speed limits. After you get busted, and it costs you a few hundred bucks, you'll adhere to the limit--for at least a year or two.

What kind of tournaments? USTA leagues? Plenty of foot faulting going on there.

The Opens bring in a higher caliber of player who don't fault most of the time?
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
Then just call "footfault" on every serve. Problem solved.

But just so we are clear, he's going 12 inches inside the baseline? Counting the line (which is 3 inches I think, though I didn't check), he's foot faulting 15 inches.

So what you are saying is that his foot is fully inside the line. Not even touching the line. But fully inside on his serves. Wow, that's amazing.

No, 6-9 inches plus the line. He is up on the balls of his feet, the front foot, he's up on his toes, is fully inside the line, the ball of the back foot probably on the front of the line. You can't not see it watching from the next court, it's impossible not to notice. Both feet at the start of the toss are behind, he tosses into the court, the front foot goes way in front of the line before contact is made.
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
Was watching some rec club dubs yesterday from the sidelines, a men's and a women's matches, 3.5/4.0, and at least three out of the four on each court FF'ed on each serve, minimally starting with one foot ON the line to a full step into the court. Discussing it at the rec/club level is strictly academic, no one calls it and no one will at that level, for for fear of being drummed out of the fraternity/sorority, and having their bar-stool rights revoked. FF'ing will only become an issue if the perps are on a team that makes it to play-offs, where there are roving officials where they will be punnished. And, being called on it is becoming less likely since the "Serena $92,000" event, with tournament officials tending to ignore FF's too feeling the pressure from the collective meme. The only players who will not FF, are those who have played competitively with officials calling them, or players who had good coaching early on.

I've never seen a club/social clinic where the pro made a point of instructing on FF prevention--and it ain't gonna' happen--teaching pros don't want to risk offending their clients losing money. So, discussion of FF's at the rec/club level are strictly academic, and only to be found at forums like this. Tournament players will not FF because they have learned that they will be penalized for it they've fixed the bad habit. It's like speeding on the hi-way, until you get a ticket you will keep inching your way up the speedometer, testing the speed limits. After you get busted, and it costs you a few hundred bucks, you'll adhere to the limit--for at least a year or two.

The players who will be penalized for FF'ing at the rec/club level are the ones who don't FF--if an inch, or, 6", or a foot doesn't matter while serving from the baseline, then it certainly won't make a difference from the other side of the net--my line calls suddenly got blurry. Virtue signaling should be reserved for the things that really matter on the court and we have control over--like the frame, strings, balls, beer and the clothes we choose.

So long story short, I should just practice my serve standing inside the line because everybody does it and nobody calls anyone on it.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
So long story short, I should just practice my serve standing inside the line because everybody does it and nobody calls anyone on it.
Look at this way. Opponent footfaulting is probably not the "bottleneck" to your lack of success in any particular match. However, getting worked up about it could be, if it affects your play enough. In other words, your concern isn't really about footfaulting itself. It's about "justice" and perceived unfairness. I'd suggest not dwelling on it. Getting worked up over footfaulting is like getting worked up over bad driving by others. Sure, you are correct. That guy should have stopped at the stop sign or stop light. He shouldn't have cut you off. He should've let you merge. But battling these types of things is like doing battle with the mythical hydra.

In other words, don't work yourself up into an emotional storm like a women over every perceived injustice. Just be a man and understand that surprise, surprise, the world isn't always fair or the way you'd like it to be. And deal with it instead of b!tching and sulking. And when you "fight back" with your clever passive aggressiveness or snarky remarks, just remember that nobody but you thinks that they are clever. Everyone else just thinks you're being a spoiled little b!tch, drama queen.

Nobody goes to the tennis court to babysit other grown men ("Johnny was footfaulting and Billy called my serve out"). Guess what, nobody else cares or wants to hear about it. What they want is for you to suck it up, be quiet, and deal with it. We all have wives at home that we get to listen to b!tching about how their life isn't perfect. None of us want to hear that **** from other men.

And by the way, this is really meant to be friendly advice (despite the tone), so take it as such.
 
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dman72

Hall of Fame
Look at this way. Opponent footfaulting is probably not the "bottleneck" to your lack of success in any particular match. However, getting worked up about it could be, if it affects your play enough. In other words, your concern isn't really about footfaulting itself. It's about "justice" and perceived unfairness. I'd suggest not dwelling on it. Getting worked up over footfaulting is like getting worked up over bad driving by others. Sure, you are correct. That guy should have stopped at the stop sign or stop light. He shouldn't have cut you off. He should've let you merge. But battling these types of things is like doing battle with the mythical hydra.

In other words, don't work yourself up into an emotional storm like a women over every perceived injustice. Just be a man and understand that surprise, surprise, the world isn't always fair or the way you'd like it to be. And deal with it instead of b!tching and sulking. And when you "fight back" with your clever passive aggressiveness or snarky remarks, just remember that nobody but you thinks that they are clever. Everyone else just thinks you're being a spoiled little b!tch, drama queen.

Nobody goes to the tennis court to babysit other grown men ("Johnny was footfaulting and Billy called my serve out"). Guess what, nobody else cares or wants to hear about it. What they want is for you to suck it up, be quiet, and deal with it. We all have wives at home that we get to listen to b!tching about how their life isn't perfect. None of us want to hear that **** from other men.

And by the way, this is really meant to be friendly advice (despite the tone), so take it as such.


Yeah, it's not friendly, it actual sounds like you are being a smart mouthed a*****e with anonymity as a shield providing extra hubris. Shocking on the internet.

My question was serious and simple. Let's just relabel it "the curious case of foot faulting" and maybe dispense with the douchbaggery.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, it's not friendly, it actual sounds like you are being a smart mouthed a*****e with anonymity as a shield providing extra hubris. Shocking on the internet.

My question was serious and simple. Let's just relabel it "the curious case of foot faulting" and maybe dispense with the douchbaggery.
Take it for what it’s worth

Good luck
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
I just had a funny memory.

One time Safin got called for a foot fault and he asked the chair if he could challenge it using Hawkeye, and Pascal (I think) laughed.
 
So long story short, I should just practice my serve standing inside the line because everybody does it and nobody calls anyone on it.
Yes, no one at the rec level will call you on it--just keep your eye out at tournaments for the roving umps and be prepared to not FF when they are observing--so you better practice from both positions.
 

kramer woodie

Professional
I find mostly older players foot fault. The simple truth is they don't care and will continue to foot fault regardless of being made aware.
The typical response is, "it is not important, just a useless stupid rule". These same people drive faster than the speed limit, tail-gate, and
just in general ignore rules. They think they are special and rules distract from their elite-ism. They will never change, will get angry if
called for foot faults, and will continue to foot fault if allowed to get away with it. It, foot faulting has become a habit and requires too much
effort to correct. We should probably feel sorry for them because they lack; 1. The mental discipline to play by the rules and 2. are simply
uncoordinated lacking balance.

Aloha
 

JW10S

Hall of Fame
When I was in college we were playing an individual tournament and there weren't umpires on each court back in those days. It was a 1st round match and we were playing on the farthest court from the tournament desk. One of our opponents foot faulted badly, way into the court. My partner calmly said to the guy 'You foot fault on every serve, I don't want to walk all the way to the tournament desk to get an empire so please just back off the line'. The guy continued to foot fault for the rest of the game. It was then my partner's turn to serve. He grabbed the balls and started walking toward the net. When he got about 2 feet from the net he tossed the ball up and slammed it into the court bouncing it over the fence and said '15-love!' The opponents looked dismayed and my partner said 'If you're going to foot fault so am I'. He got another ball and started walking toward the net again on the ad side and the opponent's said 'OK, OK, you made your point.' The next time the guy served he stood well of the line and did not foot fault the rest of match. People only do what you allow them to.
 

comeback

Hall of Fame
i have heard this tactic before but would never do it..It's just not fair....Only foot faulting the same way your opponent is foot
faulting seems more fair
 

JW10S

Hall of Fame
i have heard this tactic before but would never do it..It's just not fair....Only foot faulting the same way your opponent is foot
faulting seems more fair
A ball that lands 1 mm beyond the baseline and a ball that flies straight over the fence are both out--saying one is more out than the other does not change the score. Stepping on the line when serving and walking all the way to net to serve are both foot faults. Both are against the rules--the degree doesn't matter. It's like saying a person is 'just a little bit dead'. Dead is dead, out is out, and a foot fault is a foot fault.

The opponents foot faulted for an entire game despite being put on notice, we foot faulted 1 point in order to get back to fair play--it worked.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
A ball that lands 1 mm beyond the baseline and a ball that flies straight over the fence are both out--saying one is more out than the other does not change the score.

The difference is that everyone can be 100% accurate calling "out" a ball that flies straight over the fence. Hardly anyone can be 100% accurate calling "out" a ball that is 1mm out.

Stepping on the line when serving and walking all the way to net to serve are both foot faults. Both are against the rules--the degree doesn't matter. It's like saying a person is 'just a little bit dead'. Dead is dead, out is out, and a foot fault is a foot fault.

You changed scenarios slightly: you're comparing 2 blatant FFs to each other ["foot faulted badly, way into the court." vs walking all the way to the net to serve] but your line example compares one obviously out ball to one very not obviously out ball.

By your same logic, your opponent taking 1 second more than allowed between points is equivalent to taking 1 hour more than allowed between points. Most people would give their opponent slack for 1 second extra. Most would not for an hour extra.

So would you call a very small FF [ie 1"]? Your "dead is dead" logic implies you would.

The opponents foot faulted for an entire game despite being put on notice, we foot faulted 1 point in order to get back to fair play--it worked.

Ultimately, your tactic worked.
 

Booger

Hall of Fame
The typical response is, "it is not important, just a useless stupid rule". These same people drive faster than the speed limit, tail-gate, and just in general ignore rules.

To be fair, I do all of those things plus a few more, but would never foot fault.
 
JWS10 did what he did to make a point and it worked! If he would have used the equi-distant suggestion he would have had to readjust his service routine to suit the opponent's game which would have gotten into his own head. He made his point after two serves and the opponent started playing by the rules.
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
I foot fault when I serve bad. Generally a issue caused by poor toss or not holding weight back. I've been called, unfortunately rectify generally assists the serve as start tossing less in front and hold weight back more resulting in more kick /spin and power. I don't think there's a solution generally if they start behind the line a foot fault does not generally help them as it's a loss of form or technique. To an arm server it helps but that's poor technique anyway.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
People who foot fault are missing out.

The correct thing to do is stand several inches behind the line, like 4 inches as I do, and never foot fault. Then, constantly remind everyone that you don't foot fault. When somebody says X won a USTA match, ask sarcastically if he foot faulted all the time or only occasionally. When somebody says Y served very well, raise your hands and apostrophe serve with your fingers and roll your eyes.

It is a win-win situation, because you win even when you lose.
 

FedLIKEnot

Professional
I was someone who did it on occasion usually on second serves oddly enough. I was called on it and disagreed. And afterward our pro said yea I was over the line with my lead foot. His observation was when I was hitting second serves that were slice I did it to better clear my hips and my opponent did me a favor cause when I got bumped that’d be an easy tell.

I fixed it this off season easily enough moving to a flat form stance away from a step up pin point one. Boom problem solved. Well at least for now.
 

Heck

Rookie
When I co captained a few teams this year I made it a point to fix the little things like this. I would tell violators lol if we made playoffs refs would call them on it and it would mess with your head for a few games.
Then I tell them to line up a few inches back from the line then forget about the feet and serve.
 

Ruark

Professional
A lot of people, especially rec players, just don't take FF'ing seriously, sort of like driving 31 in a 30.
 

kramer woodie

Professional
A lot of people, especially rec players, just don't take FF'ing seriously, sort of like driving 31 in a 30.


Ruark

You got it. However, they are not driving 31 in a 30, but more like 45 in a school zone. The fact is Foot Faulters do not take tennis seriously
and all their other strokes probably use incorrect technique. They just don't care about becoming more technical correct, only care about
winning, using any advantage they can get away with.

Aloha
 
Ruark

You got it. However, they are not driving 31 in a 30, but more like 45 in a school zone. The fact is Foot Faulters do not take tennis seriously
and all their other strokes probably use incorrect technique. They just don't care about becoming more technical correct, only care about
winning, using any advantage they can get away with.

Aloha

Yes, the tyranny of the slovenlies!
 

kramer woodie

Professional
Yes, the tyranny of the slovenlies!

Tennis Tom

Yes, it is the tyranny of the slovenliness, as you wrote. The best examples I am reminded of are the abject failures of Hillary, the commie
take over of Russia, and Adolf using Socialism to gain power before becoming a dictator. The slovenliness always follow incorrect technique
in order to win. What they win is standing in line for bread if there is any left, being judged worthless, and starved to death, while the elites they followed eat caviar and drink champagne.

Aloha
 
Tennis Tom

Yes, it is the tyranny of the slovenliness, as you wrote. The best examples I am reminded of are the abject failures of Hillary, the commie
take over of Russia, and Adolf using Socialism to gain power before becoming a dictator. The slovenliness always follow incorrect technique
in order to win. What they win is standing in line for bread if there is any left, being judged worthless, and starved to death, while the elites they followed eat caviar and drink champagne.

Aloha

Using the foot-fault as the analogy, we start with the small lie, that an inch or two on the line "do not matter, make NO difference, not worth mentioning, we advance forward to taking a full step, or two, over the service line--where do we draw the line? The "line" had been drawn by the governing body of tennis deciding "the line" was the baseline, stepping over it was AGAINST the rules and resulted in a loss of points. This was amended a few decades ago to you could be in the air while serving but as long as you didn't land in the court before contacting the ball. Post "Serena $92,000" the collective meme has been brainwashed by the media to accept that the FF rule is an anachronism and de minimis, the officials calling FF's are overzealous sticklers, who should keep the infraction to themselves and keep their mouths shut about it.

At the club level NO one will call it--I've only heard of one anecdote of it being called and that was by a judge who was also a world class player--so if you are a presiding judge and a world class player you can call it and your club mates will not call you out on it, since they might be appearing in front of you some day.

Interesting that "slovenLIES" has the word "lie" in it, Hitler understood the value of a good lie to advance his agenda:
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Using the foot-fault as the analogy, we start with the small lie, that an inch or two on the line "do not matter, make NO difference, not worth mentioning, we advance forward to taking a full step, or two, over the service line--where do we draw the line?

IME, people who FF by a certain amount tend to continue FFing by that same amount; they don't creep forward over time until they're standing at the net.

I'm not saying that their original FF is not a rule violation. I certainly don't think I could see a 1" FF from 78' away when I'm in a crouch concentrating on the serve and my return. I tend to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt. Is it possible that he's FFing by an inch and I'm not calling it? Yes. Just as it's possible his last shot was an inch out but I called it in.
 
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