Single handed backhand - technical questions

[Raul_SJ]

When do you mean that the elbow is straight? A quick look at a few of the best one hand backhands all shows the elbow flexed. Included are Henin, Gasquet, Wawrinka, Haas all pictured in this thread.

Do you have the video used for that Brady gif?

Brady gif link: youtube.com/watch?v=wJ8T0EkhotY

I think you are asking about the takeback? I was responding to other post that mentioned Brady has a relatively straight arm takeback.

2. Straight hand takeback - Brady has a straight right hand takeback which I find aesthetically pleasing but I'm not sure what it contributes to technically. Fed, Wawrinka and Gasquet have a bent right hand takeback. Does it matter? I think I read somewhere on this forum (think LeeD) who said the arm needs to be straight throughout. I could be mistaken.(04:01 in the video)

It appears either the straight arm or bent arm takeback is acceptable

My important takeaway from the Avery and Brady videos is that you must swing from the shoulder on the forward swing. The shoulder must be the hinge, not the elbow. The common error seen with rec players is swinging from the elbows rather than the shoulder.

Note also that Federer straightens the elbow later than Wawrinka. Obviously, Federer has a world-class backhand, and he straightens it eventually before contact, but some claim that it is not advisable to emulate this late arm straightening.

 

[LeeD]

My apologies if this has been asked before and I did not want to ask this on an another long running thread about one handed backhand. Basically, I've been watching Brady's daily tennis lesson which is helping my game a lot. He has a beautiful one handed backhand and I'm trying to incorporate it. I think I'm almost there - needs a lot of practice I know.

1. Cocked wrist - During take back, all one handed backhand players "c ock" their wrist - Acasuso, Fed, Wawrinka, Gasquet. I don't know if cocked is the right word. Why is this required? Also I can't tell if the wrist is "cocked" upwards thumbs up direction or if the wrist is cocked as if you are accelerating a scooter or a motorcycle. I found this unnatural to implement. Does this wrist remain cocked throughout the stroke? (04:01 in the video)


2. Straight hand takeback - Brady has a straight right hand takeback which I find aesthetically pleasing but I'm not sure what it contributes to technically. Fed, Wawrinka and Gasquet have a bent right hand takeback. Does it matter? I think I read somewhere on this forum (think LeeD) who said the arm needs to be straight throughout. I could be mistaken.(04:01 in the video)

3. Grip pressure: I had a very loose grip earlier but now I realize I have to maintain 90 deg between arm and racquet. So I have to hold it tight unlike my forehand. I can drive flat with power by holding tight. Is this correct?


PS: I have a pistol eastern grip on my one handed backhand.

Tennis is a personal thing. I don't believe ANY of your points are universal.
1. McEnroe had a decent enough backhand, didn't **** his wrist.
2. Not me, everyone takes back and swings differently.
3. Loose promotes supination, but once again, some player's hold the racket tighter, while other's looser.

 

[watungga]

OP, just follow your handling instinct when positioning your wrist on takeback. Figure out which wrist position that is convenient for you to whip, 10 times with full force, that backhand forward. You're the only one who will know what preps on wrist and racquet positions are required.

 

[LeeD]

Tennis strokes are grooved by several thousand repetitions against real players. Just "knowing" how to hit the ball doesn't mean a thing. You actually have to hit the ball against real competition, in stress and relaxed conditions, thousands a month, for a handful of years, and even then, it's evolving.

 

[Ash_Smith]

Balla is probably being sarcastic....

No, he's bang on - tennis is a simple sport

 

[Chas Tennis]

Brady gif link: youtube.com/watch?v=wJ8T0EkhotY
...........................................................
..................................................................
It appears either the straight arm or bent arm takeback is acceptable
....................................................................................
My important takeaway from the Avery and Brady videos is that you must swing from the shoulder on the forward swing. The shoulder must be the hinge, not the elbow. The common error seen with rec players is swinging from the elbows rather than the shoulder.
...........................................................
.............................

"My important takeaway from the Avery and Brady videos is that you must swing from the shoulder on the forward swing. The shoulder must be the hinge, not the elbow. The common error seen with rec players is swinging from the elbows rather than the shoulder."

I don't agree with any of the 3 conclusions above.

Watch a high speed video like the ones that I posted earlier. Observe when the shoulder hinge motion occurs. Also, there is a link to a thread on the backhand.

Here's one post of that thread.
............................
.........

 

[tennis_balla]

how do you teach it... am all ears.

not complex at all - wax on wax off.... people will have questions, then detailed answers are needed.

actually when i tell others on the court, it did just take a couple of minutes.... but on such forum it's a lot of typing.

I teach it with as little instructions as possible.

 

[onehandbh]

I only focus on a few things.

- split step and start moving to get to the ball.
- turn my shoulders
- step in and swing

 

[geca]

I teach it with as little instructions as possible.

wow, thanks for saying nothing.

 

[tennis_balla]

All of this is very simple, but people in general tend to complicate simple things. They look for short cuts, and then make a huge mess of it all.

It all starts with one question: What is the single most important thing a club player can do to improve his or her tennis game? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with understanding ISR/ESR, whether your right arm is straight on the take back on the 1hbh, if you hit an "ATP or WTA" forehand and so on and so forth.
The single most important thing a club player can do to improve their game is to play as many times a week as possible. That means once or twice a week is not gonna cut it. I would never of gotten my game to where it is now if I didn't train every day as a junior. Same goes for anyone who plays the game at a higher level. Its just not gonna happen. Period. Also, no one told me I have to focus on my ESR during my serve, and this is really gonna ruffle a bunch of feather, my coach used terms like snap and pronation on the serve! :-O I know right!! Preposterous.

If a player is not playing enough hours per week, they will plateau. Which is why the majority of players are stuck at 3.5/4.0. Playing hours is part of the equations, its not end all be all to make it clear. But all this stuff above, its more or less useless. Useless because even pros wouldn't know wth you're talking about. Put in the hours, do the hard work. Watch tennis, but don't over analyze. The game of tennis is simple, you're all just making it very complicated.

 

[tennis_balla]

wow, thanks for saying nothing.

You're welcome. I just explained to you my whole philosophy in one sentence.

 

[geca]

All of this is very simple, but people in general tend to complicate simple things. They look for short cuts, and then make a huge mess of it all.

It all starts with one question: What is the single most important thing a club player can do to improve his or her tennis game? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with understanding ISR/ESR, whether your right arm is straight on the take back on the 1hbh, if you hit an "ATP or WTA" forehand and so on and so forth.
The single most important thing a club player can do to improve their game is to play as many times a week as possible. That means once or twice a week is not gonna cut it. I would never of gotten my game to where it is now if I didn't train every day as a junior. Same goes for anyone who plays the game at a higher level. Its just not gonna happen. Period. Also, no one told me I have to focus on my ESR during my serve, and this is really gonna ruffle a bunch of feather, my coach used terms like snap and pronation on the serve! :-O I know right!! Preposterous.

If a player is not playing enough hours per week, they will plateau. Which is why the majority of players are stuck at 3.5/4.0. Playing hours is part of the equations, its not end all be all to make it clear. But all this stuff above, its more or less useless. Useless because even pros wouldn't know wth you're talking about. Put in the hours, do the hard work. Watch tennis, but don't over analyze. The game of tennis is simple, you're all just making it very complicated.

this argument is flawed. hard work and correct techniques are different elements of the entire package... how many players have we seen who play day in day out and still stuck at 3.5/4.0.... many of them, with the correction of a few key technical errors can move up the levels quickly.

 

[tennis_balla]

this argument is flawed. hard work and correct techniques are different elements of the entire package... how many players have we seen who play day in day out and still stuck at 3.5/4.0.... many of them, with the correction of a few key technical errors can move up the levels quickly.

Which is why I stated it is part of the equation, and not end all be all.

 

[Chas Tennis]

How about a separate thread on the same subject with no over analysis?

 

[geca]

How about a separate thread on the same subject with no over analysis?

agreed - whoever thinks this is simple and not about ISR/ESR... open another thread... actually it will be interesting to see which approach gets more satisfied customers.

 

[geca]

Which is why I stated it is part of the equation, and not end all be all.

just different perspective then... you coach juniors who have a couple hours to hit thousands of balls... sure, climbing up the ranking ladder does require a ton of work.

but the majority here are not the high-performance type... 3 times a week players deserve to improve too beyond what 'hard work' can achieve lol.

 

[Ash_Smith]

Do you think the non high-performance players will be helpfully served by having to decipher phrases like "the entire arm is passive.. you ISR into the power position" lol

 

[tennis_balla]

just different perspective then... you coach juniors who have a couple hours to hit thousands of balls... sure, climbing up the ranking ladder does require a ton of work.

but the majority here are not the high-performance type... 3 times a week players deserve to improve too beyond what 'hard work' can achieve lol.

No, I coach adults as well and also work with juniors who do not play daily. Majority of juniors do not spend hours on court actually. I see it day in and day out as well as on here whenever I login. I'm not all about "hard work" as you put it and nothing else. I think you are missing the point I am making.

 

[geca]

Do you think the non high-performance players will be helpfully served by having to decipher phrases like "the entire arm is passive.. you ISR into the power position" lol

do you have anything constructive to say?

 

[geca]

No, I coach adults as well and also work with juniors who do not play daily. Majority of juniors do not spend hours on court actually. I see it day in and day out as well as on here whenever I login. I'm not all about "hard work" as you put it and nothing else. I think you are missing the point I am making.

so what is your point - you just said 'hit a ton of balls'... well, apparently the OP and others had an issue with the shot after hitting balls, which is why they are asking questions.

so besides 'hitting a ton of balls' what is your constructive input?

 

[tennis_balla]

@geca

What's interesting here is you assumed I coach a lot of high performance juniors. Almost as if you know/knew me from a previous account. Hmm

 

[Ash_Smith]

do you have anything constructive to say?

Yes, I agree with Balla - when teaching in real life, keeping things as simple as possible is best. I have coached national level, international level and paralympic athletes and not once in my 16 years of coaching have I discussed with any of them (or even used the terms) ISR/ESR etc. If the biomechanics stuff is your thing (it certainly was mine early in my career) it's great to know and understand, but it isn't really relevant to the man in the street (or on court) and using the scientific terminology will likely cause more confusion than good.

 

[geca]

@geca

What's interesting here is you assumed I coach a lot of high performance juniors. Almost as if you know/knew me from a previous account. Hmm

I assumed because your post with 'hitting a lot of balls'... and 'I couldn't get to the level I am at today....' etc... that fits the picture of junior training.

 

[geca]

Yes, I agree with Balla - when teaching in real life, keeping things as simple as possible is best. I have coached national level, international level and paralympic athletes and not once in my 16 years of coaching have I discussed with any of them (or even used the terms) ISR/ESR etc. If the biomechanics stuff is your thing (it certainly was mine early in my career) it's great to know and understand, but it isn't really relevant to the man in the street (or on court) and using the scientific terminology will likely cause more confusion than good.

there is still nothing constructive here is there? show us a better alternative than 'ISR/ESR'... again, am all ears here.

live coaching in person is one thing, trying to explain in text is another.

the ones who don't want to learn will never get it... but shoulder rotation seems to be widely discussed here... and Chas took his time to figure it out didn't he?

'I have coached 16 years and I have a secret sauce and yours ain't gonna help' is the kind of thing that really is not gonna help.... nobody can improve on that...

if you have a better way to explain the shot.. go ahead.

 

[tennis_balla]

@geca
I have already given you my constructive input with an alternative point of view. Not sure what more you are looking for?

 

[Ash_Smith]

if you have a better way to explain the shot.. go ahead.

Okay... some simple teaching progressions to build a solid single hander... (to be taught in this order). Of the coaching notes very few of those need be discussed on court.

 

[geca]

@geca
I have already given you my constructive input with an alternative point of view. Not sure what more you are looking for?

there is no conflict then... people can improve by understanding shoulder rotation, AND hitting a lot of balls.

 

[RetroSpin]

I find that word descriptions for complex 3D motions like the backhand can't convey racket orientation or what is going on without high speed video. If Gasquet internally shoulder rotated farther at this point it would move his forearm against his chest.

I'd go as far to say that the upper body/shoulder girdle goes past perpendicular to the net and to some degree his back faces the opponent. And, as Justine Henin said, 'The head looks over the shoulder.' But the forward tilt of the trunk has to be described too. That is, for backhand drives where Gasquet is not pressured and wants to hit heavy pace.

I don't see the racket close to parallel to the back fence for these backhands.

Look at 00:35 in second vid.

 

[geca]

Okay... some simple teaching progressions to build a solid single hander... (to be taught in this order). Of the coaching notes very few of those need be discussed on court.

not bad... and really there is no conflict to ISR discussions.. people learn differently... some by pictures, some by words.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Look at 00:35 in second vid.

OK. What do you want to point out?

 

[Ash_Smith]

not bad...

Thanks for the endorsement

 

[RetroSpin]

OK. What do you want to point out?

Sorry, I was responding to your question early on in this thread about the racquet being parallel to the back fence. Lot of ground covered since then.

 

[RetroSpin]

Yes, I agree with Balla - when teaching in real life, keeping things as simple as possible is best. I have coached national level, international level and paralympic athletes and not once in my 16 years of coaching have I discussed with any of them (or even used the terms) ISR/ESR etc. If the biomechanics stuff is your thing (it certainly was mine early in my career) it's great to know and understand, but it isn't really relevant to the man in the street (or on court) and using the scientific terminology will likely cause more confusion than good.

You and balla have made this same point repeatedly. You may well be correct that it is the best way to teach, but the OP came on here with some very specific technical questions. Geca addressed them in great detail, using correct biomechanical terminology. Many of us here are interested in the biomechanical aspects of stroke production, not just the optimal way to teach a junior or an adult rec player.

I value the contributions you and accomplished players/coaches like balla make but I also enjoy the technical side. There's room for both, and I don't see how additional knowledge is anything but a positive.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Okay... some simple teaching progressions to build a solid single hander... (to be taught in this order). Of the coaching notes very few of those need be discussed on court.

Those are elaborate checkpoints. On the right are frames from a high speed video.

What I usually do is look at posters videos and compare them to frames of the best ATP strokes. With the two frames in mind I point out what I think are differences. Usually checkpoints are used. I suggest that the posters search for more suitable videos and compare their strokes in a similar way. They have an issue/probably flaw to investigate. They can pursue changing their strokes or not.

"6. Contraction Stage
............
Hand and racket must be adjusted in height to create the level of spin required...."

This thread has been largely about some interesting details on the issue above, getting the racket down with ISR and later the ESR. I was very surprised to see after looking at high speed videos for years, the ISR/ESR on the Justine Henin backhand video. geca had a lot of interesting elaboration about ISR/ESR on the backhand. I think it is most interesting to learn whether the ISR/ESR mostly supplies force or adjusts height or both. ?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Sorry, I was responding to your question early on in this thread about the racquet being parallel to the back fence. Lot of ground covered since then.

Was it you that said the racket should be parallel to the fence at a point of the takeback? I often check those statements out with videos. I the first ones I looked at, including the Gasquet, were well off parallel. I believe that since then maybe Henin had one closer to parallel. I don't think it is a general rule for the highest level backhands.

I'm now trying to get Raul_SJ to look at videos on the 'shoulder hinge' issue.

 

[sureshs]

wow, thanks for saying nothing.

Ignore some of these "coaches" and you will be fine. Tennis is so simple for them they were never able to play it at any level worth talking about in the professional game.

They have nothing to contribute except snide remarks and useless cliches. You have a very good understanding of tennis. Stick to the good coaches here like Chas tennis and Systematic Anamoly and LeeD.

 

[sureshs]

You and balla have made this same point repeatedly. You may well be correct that it is the best way to teach, but the OP came on here with some very specific technical questions. Geca addressed them in great detail, using correct biomechanical terminology. Many of us here are interested in the biomechanical aspects of stroke production, not just the optimal way to teach a junior or an adult rec player.

I value the contributions you and accomplished players/coaches like balla make but I also enjoy the technical side. There's room for both, and I don't see how additional knowledge is anything but a positive.

It is not a positive to those who want to create an air of superiority and keep others from discussing freely. Those who are really interested in coaching would never belittle other approaches.

 

[tennis_balla]

Pot meet kettle

 

[geca]

Pot meet kettle

exactly.

 

[geca]

@Chas - the ESR does raise the optimal contact point.... go drop hit a few and you will realize now the preferred contact is at chest high instead of waist high (old school bh).. because at chest high that ESR has accelerated longer and is more powerful. And yes, the ESR motion adds a ton of racket head speed, not only for penetration, but for heavy spin.

you see a couple of fellow 1hbh'ers posted their videos - . one of them even hit it with open stance lol.. the power and spin in those amateur videos are good!

The biggest advantage of this hand action is really the constant loft that greatly expands the strike zone... you see Wawa hits it above his head... anybody can with the ESR motion.

without the ESR motion, the racket face will start to open up once the swing goes past waist high. that is serious limitation in a real battle.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'm now trying to get Raul_SJ to look at videos on the 'shoulder hinge' issue.

Once Haas reaches the low point of the forward swing, the arm is straight. He swings with a straight arm up to contact. This seems consistent with the Avery "Swing from the shoulder hinge" instruction...

Haas may be a better model for rec players than Federer...

YouTube Video "Roger Federer Backhand Analysis" by Florian Meier

Florian quote: "Federer sometimes frames the shot and does not get the contact out in front as much as he could with a fully straight arm. Gasquet, Haas, and Wawrinka have their arms fully straight when reaching this position (pic#1)... At contact, Roger's arm is not fully straight, which can also cause problems (pic#2)... "​

Key points from Avery video:

At the low point of the forward swing, the arm is straight. From that point, you want to swing from the shoulder to easily generate racket head speed. It feels relatively effortless. Swinging from the elbow feels more laborius.


Swinging with shoulder as hinge. (Correct).

Swinging with elbow as hinge. (Wrong).

YouTube Video "Tom Avery One Handed Backhand Tennis Lesson - Ahaaa "

 

[Shroud]

Shroud's bh is sound... although with all due respect you can't really compare a top pro to a middle aged guy in long pants and a hoodie lol.

@Chas I think at this point it's over analyzing.... time to roll some balls.

Balla is probably being sarcastic.... but once you roll some balls and feel the hand action, it is really that simple.

Dude that made my day!!! Hysterical. Hoodie hides the gut and the long pants have lines to make me look taller

 

[Shroud]

I will be looking at the pro clips soon but here is the Avery video. His explanation makes sense to me.

At the low point of the backswing, the arm is straight. From that point, You want to swing from the shoulder to easily generate racket head speed. It feels relatively effortless. Swinging from the elbow feels more laborius.


Swinging with shoulder as hinge. (Correct).

Swinging with elbow as hinge. (Wrong).

Pretty sure that vid saved my arm!!

 

[THE FIGHTER]

I've always used a single handed backhand with a pistol grip (index separated). It is very inconsistent and I'm trying to improve it by using Brady's model one handed backhand. Things I've learned :

1. My grip was too loose. I've realised now that I have to hold it tight to maintain racket and forearm angle throughout the stroke.
2. My heelpad in my easter backhand grip is not in the right place. That would c ock my wrist properly if I placed it properly. The comments here made me realise that. This link also explains it beautifully. http://beveldevil.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-modern-1hbh-grip-its-all-about-heel.html
3. Straight arm takeback - I have a bent arm takeback. I'll keep it that way.

I dont think I agree with #1. You can still load up the forearm without gripping hard. How tightly you hold the racquet is independent of whether or not the racquet is c-cked.

 

[tex123]

I teach it with as little instructions as possible.

I understand what you are trying to say, tennis_balla. It works for some people but for folks like me, I like to know the reasoning behind it and why it has to be like that. Tennis is simple for some people but it does not come easy to some people no matter how much they work hard. It's a bit like learning to dance . Some just pick up instinctively but for some it is a lost cause. If you watch "Strictly come Dancing", you'll know what I'm talking about.


I've learned a lot from this thread and have watched that video (Kevin's and Brady's) so many times. It was an eye opener to me. I've then compared it to what Geca and Chas were saying and spotted many flaws in my swing. So it is beneficial to have detailed instructions for people like me. Tennis is not simple to me. But please do provide your instructions as it does work for certain people. We are all different, aren't we!

 

[tex123]

I will be looking at the pro clips soon but here is the Avery video. His explanation makes sense to me.

At the low point of the backswing, the arm is straight. From that point, You want to swing from the shoulder to easily generate racket head speed. It feels relatively effortless. Swinging from the elbow feels more laborius.


Swinging with shoulder as hinge. (Correct).

Swinging with elbow as hinge. (Wrong).

Great illustration, Raul_SJ. Straight arm certainly is the way to go. At the take back, I've seen bent and straight. But during the swing, it is always straight.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I've been watching Brady's daily tennis lesson which is helping my game a lot. He has a beautiful one handed backhand and I'm trying to incorporate it.

One key point from the Brady video is that once you reach the top of the "Reverse C" shape, the motion downwards should be fluid, with no pause. Notice that there is a very slight pause in the rec player's swing after reaching the top of the "Reverse C" shape --although the pause is very slight, this non-fluidity will sacrifice racket head speed.

 

[tex123]

One key point from the Brady video is that once you reach the top of the "Reverse C" shape, the motion downwards should be fluid, with no pause. Notice that there is a very slight pause in the rec player's swing after reaching the top of the "Reverse C" shape --although the pause is very slight, this non-fluidity will sacrifice racket head speed.

Fxanimator1 in the video above is finishing high which Kevin talks about. He says up and across - not high. See 04:03 below.

 

[tex123]

I dont think I agree with #1. You can still load up the forearm without gripping hard. How tightly you hold the racquet is independent of whether or not the racquet is c-cked.

The trouble is that if you hold it loose, the racket is going to snap forward in the C swing downward. This is what Kevin advises against. See 03:54.

That's why tennis is not simple. It is a complicated technical sport.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Fxanimator1 in the video above is finishing high which Kevin talks about. He says up and across - not high. See 04:03 below.

I believe Kevin is trying to demonstrate a "heavy topspin penetrating ball" hence the lower finish. One can finish higher with the realization that it will not be as penetrating.