Single handed backhand - technical questions

Raul_SJ

Legend
Great illustration, Raul_SJ. Straight arm certainly is the way to go. At the take back, I've seen bent and straight. But during the swing, it is always straight.
Yes, Brady is a great player. I am trying to copy him as I have the habit of sometimes swinging from the elbow. If I make the unit turn, and then immediately straighten the arm on the takeback, as Brady does, I am more likely to swing correctly from the shoulder and not the elbow.

 
Once Haas reaches the low point of the forward swing, the arm is straight. He swings with a straight arm up to contact. This seems consistent with the Avery "Swing from the shoulder hinge" instruction...



Haas may be a better model for rec players than Federer...
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That Haas backhand does not look heavy paced and I agree that he has probably used more of a shoulder hinge. That is a reasonable interpretation of that video.

Here is Gasquet putting pace into a backhand. Better camera views to show the shoulder hinge or other technique is from front or as this Gasquet backhand is viewed.

To do single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
 
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geca

Semi-Pro
watch that ATP 1hbh video i posted.... in real battle there are very few 'standard issue' shots where you have all the time in the world to set up and unwind the core... again - all the body parts are the slaves serving the master (the hand). some shots you have time to unwind the upper core, some shots you only have time for the arm to go and the core has to stay behind.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Fxanimator1 in the video above is finishing high which Kevin talks about. He says up and across - not high. See 04:03 below.

Here's what "Rino" had to say about my backhand.

"...I wanna see a video of your tragic powder puff shots, fat gut and woeful physical form, just for laughs.
Edit: I have!"
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
I think the Avery video is aimed more at less advanced players who have a tendency to hit the BH by extending their elbow. His use of non-standard terminology is a bit confusing. I interpret "shoulder hinge" to mean right arm abduction or perhaps transverse abduction.

The Gasquet BH shows what I believe is a fair bit of right shoulder protraction followed by retraction as he starts forward. It is important to remember that the shoudlers can move independently. He retains retraction in the left shoulder. Stan retains less than most. Double retraction produces the shoulder blades pinched together feeling that many advocate.

The power on the stroke comes mainly from a combination of ESR, arm abduction and shoulder retraction.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
Was it you that said the racket should be parallel to the fence at a point of the takeback? I often check those statements out with videos. I the first ones I looked at, including the Gasquet, were well off parallel. I believe that since then maybe Henin had one closer to parallel. I don't think it is a general rule for the highest level backhands.

I'm now trying to get Raul_SJ to look at videos on the 'shoulder hinge' issue.
I emphasize the parallel position because it is a sticking point for many who struggle with this shot. Most pros do not get exactly parallel but they do get the racket axis significantly past 90* to the baseline. My observations of low level rec players is that virtually none get anywhere close to this. I believe one reason for this is that it is a dynamic position, not one that the player generally pauses in, so it is difficult for the rec player to appreciate what is happening. I think it is hard to get into full ISR without getting the racquet close to parallel.
 
The top one hand backhand drive technique and all other techniques -

The most interesting strokes technically are the heaviest paced strokes that the best players use to pressure or to hit winners. These strokes are models of the most successful biomechanics of the day. These strokes are studied and descriptions of the strokes exist. Many top players have had one or more of these outstanding stroke techniques.

There are many different circumstances for strokes. There are lesser strokes used when the best players are pressured or don't want a heavy drive. In addition, there are other stroke techniques for a wide spectrum of amateur player levels. These other stroke techniques have not been studied and described as far as I can find. The amazing example is the Waiter's Tray serve used by an estimated 50% of tennis players. These lesser techniques account for most tennis points but very few studies or descriptions are available. I'd be interested in knowing when an ATP player is pressured, what parts of the biomechanics can be left out and still achieve an acceptable shot. That information probably does not exist. If someone has research studies and descriptions of stroke techniques under pressure or stroke techniques known to be appropriate for amateurs at various skill levels please post them.

I don't hear video instruction saying that a certain instruction is intended for a player capable of 40% performance quality or is for players that are incapable of certain body motions or won't do them. Those instruction - aimed at lesser strokes - would have to take account of each one-of-a-kind technique, its unknown biomechanics, and have the knowledge of what to do. Tennis is just barely able to describe strokes for a few of the best stroke techniques and give instructions for those. The unspoken implication for most instruction is that the goal is a high level stroke, not some lesser technique. ?

The one hand backhands of Gasquet, Wawrinka, Henin and some others, are well known for their effectiveness and widely seen on TV and the internet. They are models and display certain biomechanical features. All interested tennis players can become aware of their specific stroke techniques by studying these players.

The miscellaneous techniques of amateur players have not been well researched or described. If you believe that the highest level stroke techniques have nothing for you, what are your going to use for a model? No model, just instruction....?

A point in a discussion can be limited to the best strokes and ignore the stroke techniques used under pressure and the stoke techniques used by players who don't have high level strokes. Look how difficult it is to get wide understanding of a handful of excellent strokes even when only a few of the main features are involved. Of course, every discussion can mention the levels of amateur players and say that a particular technique observed in a high level stroke is beyond their capability..sounds reasonable.. backup? ....how is that known? References?

I vote for describing the best backhand techniques used without pressure as the most interesting subject. I believe, but do not know, that the biomechanical techniques demonstrated are very informative to most interested players and that many players are capable of using much of the high level biomechanics.
 
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For a one hand backhand drive intended for heavy pace -

Technique 1 - the 'shoulder hinge'

Technique 2 - the Credit Card Backhand
 
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tex123

Semi-Pro
I got it. I had that A-H-A moment. I literally watched the gif of brady's swing a number of times, stood in front of a mirror and copied it. It is a beautiful swing with a straight arm. The KEY is moving your hip forward with a bent knee and rotate. As the racket starts the C shape, the hips sort of moves forward and rotates. The position of left leg as he finishes gave me that A-H-A moment. Everything falls into place after that and it feels so natural. I kept reminding myself that it is no different to a forehand swing when you move forward and did the same on backhand side.

I can copy Brady's swing naturally now!! (well in front of a mirror :) ).
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
I the first ones I looked at, including the Gasquet, were well off parallel. I believe that since then maybe Henin had one closer to parallel. I don't think it is a general rule for the highest level backhands.
Kuerten gets close to parallel. I will have to try this out on court. Assuming one has time to set up, this position should not be too difficult to achieve. A lot of energy will be stored and released by getting into this position or close to it.

 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
I kept reminding myself that it is no different to a forehand swing when you move forward and did the same on backhand side.
There are very clear fundamental differences between fh and 1hbh. Without these in mind trying to incorporate elements from one to another will continue to cause problems. So be careful.
 
Raul_SJ

Experiment for healthy shoulder -

Tie a rope to a fixed object. Take a luggage scale in your hand. Position so that your arm is straight and about across your chest resembling the positions in a backhand takeback ready to go forward. Don't stress your shoulder joint - with a moderate slow effort isolate your shoulder joint muscles and measure the pull force on the scale.

 
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THE FIGHTER

Hall of Fame
The trouble is that if you hold it loose, the racket is going to snap forward in the C swing downward. This is what Kevin advises against. See 03:54.




That's why tennis is not simple. It is a complicated technical sport.
You misread what I wrote, i believe. Gripping the racquet tightly and keeping the forearm extended or c0cked (extended as in the back of ones hand is pulled back by the forearm) are two different things. Its possible to have a loose grip with a taught wrist at the same time.

This diagram will help explain what is meant by forehand extended


Keeping the racket from swinging forward involves the forearm and wrist. Not the hand/fingers/grip. Which is what kevin for the most part is addressing.
 

JEDBERG1

Rookie
this is a good one... you see the similarity to the ATP style.
Geca I really enjoyed the TTD video. I have a question about his grip, I understand the hammer grip, but on what bevel is the knuckles lined up. I am between eastern backhand and continental. Is that correct or should it be more eastern
 

geca

Semi-Pro
Geca I really enjoyed the TTD video. I have a question about his grip, I understand the hammer grip, but on what bevel is the knuckles lined up. I am between eastern backhand and continental. Is that correct or should it be more eastern
between E and C should be fine.. most ATP guys use that.

Henin is short, so full E works for her.

at 5'11 I use between E and C also.. full C - difficult for high balls... full E - difficult for low balls.... just need to find a trade-off point.
 

tex123

Semi-Pro
Just wanted to post an update and say thanks. After I tried in front of a mirror so many times, I replicated a pro like swing. I don't know how many hours I spent staring at that Brady backhand clip posted by Raul_SJ until I got that A-H-A moment. Thanks for that.

A couple of sessions with my coach, I just got it! I was blasting those 1hbh like pros. I could not believe so much effortless power with topspin I was getting. It was unreal. No two hander can get me that kind of power. It was at times wawrinka like (ha ha). My backhand was flying way faster than my forehand and my forehand is very good.

There were a couple of things I would like to add which may help anyone who reads this thread.

1. Grip change - I always hold my racket in continental grip when I'm waiting for opponent to hit. To change grip, I pull the throat with my left hand towards my chest until it is pointing at the side fence. This movement automatically makes all knuckles line up in bevel 1 with wrist cocked and elbow straight. After that simply, take the racket back with straight elbow (I find it better with straight elbow). This is now automatic!

2. Finish at the target - Initially when I tried the C swing, I was burying all of them in the net. Before you adopt "kevin like side finish" (see video), finish at target (i.e racket face in the direction ball is going). This immediately gave me the feel and ball started going over with decent power.

3. Top spin and finish to your side - Once the "finish at target" is nailed, just let your hand loose and adopt the wiper finish. It feels so natural. The balls goes with such a zip.

4. Bend - If the ball is going into the net, I'm not bending my knees and getting under the ball. Bend for low balls.

5. Attack the ball - I think the foot movement is very important in 1hbh. Really attack the ball. Use your hips to initiate the C swing. You should feel the body weight going into the ball as you are straightening your knee. Nothing felt out of place. Even balls pushed out wide, I was able to return with decent power.

6. Pinch - Brady talks abut "pinch" in your back when left hand moves back after you strike. If you've done everything right, that naturally happens. I don't even have to think about it.


My down the line 1hbh shots were deadliest. So much zip and power. Really happy. Now I guess I need to work on my forehand to make it better than my backhand lol. Forehand is a bit loopy and lots of topspin - very good but it could be made better.
 
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Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Just wanted to post an update and say thanks.

There were a couple of things I would like to add which may help anyone who reads this thread.

1. Grip change - I always hold my racket in continental grip when I'm waiting for opponent to hit. To change grip, I pull the throat with my left hand towards my chest until it is pointing at the side fence. This movement automatically makes all knuckles line up in bevel 1 with wrist cocked and elbow straight. After that simply, take the racket back with straight elbow (I find it better with straight elbow). This is now automatic!
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You're welcome! From post #2 of this thread.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
I'd like to hear your views on the transition in back hand from backward motion to forward motion and why, or would you prefer having the racket head up and wrist cokced (palmar extension) before the hand drops down instead of palmar flexion and hitting surface pointing to the ground like in forehand motion of Federer's.

I think, it might just be easier to get the idea of brushing upwards, if the strings and knuckles pointed down to the ground, when dropping the club down. One benefit also might be, that you get your fist - forearm angle dead straight at impact, without any twisting or bendin the wrist on the forward motion.

Then again you can and may enhance the brushing motion by forearm supination and ESR later, but initially the swing should move the hand and racket towards impact.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
On tex123 point #5, yes, attacking the ball and have the impact position really forward, way up at the net side of your body. 2-handers naturally will hit the ball pretty much more parallel to their body. When having only one hand on the racket you really need to build up strong momentum and good geometry behind the ball to be able to get maximum speed out of your motion.

If you have your arm pointing about 45 to 0 degrees of the intended hitting line the strength needed to get the impuls thru the ball without giving in, the angle reduces the pover reequest by cosine of the angle of your arm. Ie. if you have the 45 degree set-up at impact, you only need half the strength to reverse the momentum of the ball hitting the racket.
 

tex123

Semi-Pro
I'd like to hear your views on the transition in back hand from backward motion to forward motion and why, or would you prefer having the racket head up and wrist cokced (palmar extension) before the hand drops down instead of palmar flexion and hitting surface pointing to the ground like in forehand motion of Federer's.

I think, it might just be easier to get the idea of brushing upwards, if the strings and knuckles pointed down to the ground, when dropping the club down. One benefit also might be, that you get your fist - forearm angle dead straight at impact, without any twisting or bendin the wrist on the forward motion.

Then again you can and may enhance the brushing motion by forearm supination and ESR later, but initially the swing should move the hand and racket towards impact.
Hey Pete Player - My two cents as I'm still learning backhand. Others can chime in but elbow straight (at least for me) and racket head pointing to the ceiling (ish) with wrist cocked in takeback begins the C swing. Actually the C swing begins with the hips uncoiling. It builds up the racket speed as opposed to starting without the ISR (i.e power position). It does not feel natural otherwise. Having said that, my coach does ask beginners to start that way as C swing takes time to develop.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
also - I think it's necessary to point out bad teachings. otherwise you will be in for a load of frustration.

Avery's are not that good... but these below are even worse -

Yeah those two videos aren't very good. The first one (IIRC anyway--didn't watch it) says to spread out your fingers like tree roots to better grip your racquet and that it's what Federer does...but a simple slow mo video search shows that he actually grips his racquet way down at the bottom of the handle with his fingers close together in a fist. It's one thing to provide old-school advice (IMO, it's hard to hit high balls holding your racquet like that), but it's poor form to provide false information that can be fact checked so simply.

That second channel seems to give a lot of outdated or poor advice for those trying to adopt more modern / advanced techniques, but is otherwise okay for people who just want some degree of competency.

You should watch her slice video...horrible stuff. Tells you that it's wrong to chop down on the ball (even though every pro and high level amateur player does it), and instead try to hit the ball as if you are skimming the top of a block of butter with a knife...then proceeds to chop down on the slices herself when it comes to demonstration time...
 

Mojo28

New User
ok - no muscles are needed to do the ISR/ESR :)

here is how.... see all the modern teachers ask you to have the racket head point up at the start of the swing. if you aim the leading edge forward, and start the forward swing, the racket will drop down counter clockwise automatically. and since you start with the leading edge forward, it's automatically an ISR. right? :)

instead of the leading edge forward, the most common mistake is to show the hitting side of the string to the ball, then when the racket drops down counter clockwise, it's a pronation opening up the string, instead of an ISR to keep the strings at the same loft.... makes sense?

after you do the ISR correctly, the racket is now in the 'power position', then just swing the leading edge to the ball as if you want to cut the side of the ball without any intention to put the strings on the ball. it sounds crazy but trust me the strings will catch the ball if you keep going lol. if you swing the leading edge forward, it's automatically an ESR.

instead of swing the leading edge forward, the most common mistake is to try to put the strings on the ball, this again opens up the strings with a pronation, and the forward swing becomes a supination that shuts down the racket face. all hell breaks loose.

again - read the above very very carefully and make sure you understand lol.

therefore, a standard issue 1hbh should never feel like a square hit of the strings on the ball... it always feels like rolling the ball with a wiping motion.
I have been trying to understand this for quite some time and today, I think I figured something out. Maybe I understand what you were saying. And maybe not :) When you say leading edge, do you mean butt cap of the racket? Because, I was trying to lead with the butt cap and had the feeling you were talking about. I just moved the butt cap and strings catch the ball itself. It is a beautiful feeling. And the shot feels so effortless.
 
Look at these posts for the source of ISR. I had trouble with the 'edges' description also. geca may have clarified "edges" farther in this long thread.


power position at 0:16, basically when you start the pull forward.

also notice the 'constant loft' from :48 - :50 .... power position to impact to follow thru... 5d closed all the way.... there are few more shots after :50 from the same angle, you can see the constant loft on every shot.
@Chas I think you got it.... yes during the take back the racket face looks open to the sky, but the WW action does not change.... the ISR is happening while Kevin takes it back and drops it down.

biomechanically speaking, because there is a big space above the left shoulder, it is the most comfortable to turn back and have the racket the hitting hand in that space to start... then you drop it down into the loaded power position.

in the above sequence Kevin hit a ball just below his chest.... I'd personally not having the hands so high in the take back for such a ball.... but it's just personal preference... If I need to hit a shoulder high ball, then a high take back is definitely ideal.
The source of ISR includes the off hand turning the racket down. See Henin backhands.

That is a nice motion. You use your upper body turn.

I had just noticed the ISR/ESR motion, that geca is talking about, in November 2015 so I have not looked much at the top backhands. I don't understand the ISR/ESR motion very well and especially the forces. Backhand drives are hit with a lot of variation in pace and topspin so the techniques used by each player will vary. I don't know the variety being used or have checkpoints as I do for the serve. I'll study what the top players do when they want to hit a winner.

I would say that your backhand does not use the ISR/ESR as much as Henin and probably the others.

Frame #1. The racket appears to have a similar open orientation as Gasquet and some others. Probably your hitting arm and especially the other elbow are more to the front?


Frame #2. Henin for comparison. Henin's racket is not as open as Gasquet's. She has a lot of upper body turn and some upper body to hip 'separation' (the upper body is turned back farther than the hips.)


Frame #3. The thing that is important for the ISR/ESR issue is that you more bring your racket down where Henin rotates her racket down. Her motion has more ISR possibly caused by the off hand moving the racket head. Compare videos, yours to Henin's. Also, compare your forearm to racket angle to Henin's and others with similar camera angles. The camera angle is not so good for seeing your forearm to racket angle. Her's looks 90d and yours much straighter.


Frame #4. Henin for comparison. Her forearm to racket is about 90d. Find others.


Frame #5. Near impact. ESR here would add to topspin.


Frame #6. After impact.


Frames #3, 5 and 6. Look at video and try to see ESR and the general racket path. I think you are swinging forward with less ESR than most strong drives of the top backhands. But I have not looked at enough heavy paced backhands to know.


Henin's backhand starts at about 56 seconds with racket drop at 1:07. The way the racket rotates down is a pretty distinct and simple motion, don't you think?
 
My apologies if this has been asked before and I did not want to ask this on an another long running thread about one handed backhand. Basically, I've been watching Brady's daily tennis lesson which is helping my game a lot. He has a beautiful one handed backhand and I'm trying to incorporate it. I think I'm almost there - needs a lot of practice I know.

1. Cocked wrist - During take back, all one handed backhand players "c ock" their wrist - Acasuso, Fed, Wawrinka, Gasquet. I don't know if cocked is the right word. Why is this required? Also I can't tell if the wrist is "cocked" upwards thumbs up direction or if the wrist is cocked as if you are accelerating a scooter or a motorcycle. I found this unnatural to implement. Does this wrist remain cocked throughout the stroke? (04:01 in the video)


2. Straight hand takeback - Brady has a straight right hand takeback which I find aesthetically pleasing but I'm not sure what it contributes to technically. Fed, Wawrinka and Gasquet have a bent right hand takeback. Does it matter? I think I read somewhere on this forum (think LeeD) who said the arm needs to be straight throughout. I could be mistaken.(04:01 in the video)

3. Grip pressure: I had a very loose grip earlier but now I realize I have to maintain 90 deg between arm and racquet. So I have to hold it tight unlike my forehand. I can drive flat with power by holding tight. Is this correct?


PS: I have a pistol eastern grip on my one handed backhand.



You don't need to **** your wrist. As for the technique Federer uses for his backhand, doing this keeps your shots in line-drive fashion and helps prevent your shots from being weak and prevent you from hitting the ball into the air too much with nothing on it.
 

geca

Semi-Pro
I have been trying to understand this for quite some time and today, I think I figured something out. Maybe I understand what you were saying. And maybe not :) When you say leading edge, do you mean butt cap of the racket? Because, I was trying to lead with the butt cap and had the feeling you were talking about. I just moved the butt cap and strings catch the ball itself. It is a beautiful feeling. And the shot feels so effortless.
if you have an E bh grip and hold the racket in front of you with the tip to the sky, the leading edge would be the 3 o clock point on the racket head.

yes,if you have a relaxed wrist, moving the butt cap will naturally cause the ISR/ESR to happen. and yes, it is completely effortless.
 
if you have an E bh grip and hold the racket in front of you with the tip to the sky, the leading edge would be the 3 o clock point on the racket head.

yes,if you have a relaxed wrist, moving the butt cap will naturally cause the ISR/ESR to happen. and yes, it is completely effortless.
I am not clear on what you mean, especially "3 o'clock point on the racket head". When during the stroke are you referring to? How does it relate?

If this is something that appears in a video could you capture the frame and post a picture or give the time of the video? Or, you could hold the racket to display and take a picture.

[The procedure is to stop on a frame of video and use the Windows Snipping Tool to select an area of the video for a picture. Or take a picture with your still camera. Save it to your computer (usually in Pictures) using the Snipping Tool. You now have an image file such as a .jpg file.

You cannot post from your computer directly to the forum. You need to have an account on a website that hosts pictures. There are many photo hosting websites that are free. Upload the .jpg using the easy process on the photo hosting website.

Once it is on the PH website, view the picture full size. Right mouse click on the picture, select "Copy Image Location" & click it.

Go the forum and click "Reply". Select the image icon at the top of the Reply box (looks like 2 mountains & the moon) paste in the Image Location that you copied from the PH Website. The picture should appear in your Reply. Check using "Preview".]
 
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geca

Semi-Pro
I am not clear on what you mean, especially "3 o'clock point on the racket head". When during the stroke are you referring to? How does it relate?

If this is something that appears in a video could you capture the frame and post a picture or give the time of the video? Or, you could hold the racket to display and take a picture.

[The procedure is to stop on a frame of video and use the Windows Snipping Tool to select an area of the video for a picture. Or take a picture with your still camera. Save it to your computer (usually in Pictures) using the Snipping Tool. You now have an image file such as a .jpg file.

You cannot post from your computer directly to the forum. You need to have an account on a website that hosts pictures. There are many photo hosting websites that are free. Upload the .jpg using the easy process on the photo hosting website.

Once it is on the PH website, view the picture full size. Right mouse click on the picture, select "Copy Image Location" & click it.

Go the forum and click "Reply". Select the image icon at the top of the Reply box (looks like 2 mountains & the moon) paste in the Image Location that you copied from the PH Website. The picture should appear in your Reply. Check using "Preview".]
lol.... this direction is so long I can't even follow.

when we apply lead tape to the hoop, don't we refer to the positions as 3 and 9 o'clock etc?

the 'leading edge' is the 3 o'clock spot that leads the hoop on it's way to the ball :)
 

Mojo28

New User
if you have an E bh grip and hold the racket in front of you with the tip to the sky, the leading edge would be the 3 o clock point on the racket head.

yes,if you have a relaxed wrist, moving the butt cap will naturally cause the ISR/ESR to happen. and yes, it is completely effortless.
Thanks. I will stop going into details with edges then. Pointing the but call to the ball seems good enough since I usually tend to overthink.
 

Mojo28

New User
I am not clear on what you mean, especially "3 o'clock point on the racket head". When during the stroke are you referring to? How does it relate?

If this is something that appears in a video could you capture the frame and post a picture or give the time of the video? Or, you could hold the racket to display and take a picture.

[The procedure is to stop on a frame of video and use the Windows Snipping Tool to select an area of the video for a picture. Or take a picture with your still camera. Save it to your computer (usually in Pictures) using the Snipping Tool. You now have an image file such as a .jpg file.

You cannot post from your computer directly to the forum. You need to have an account on a website that hosts pictures. There are many photo hosting websites that are free. Upload the .jpg using the easy process on the photo hosting website.

Once it is on the PH website, view the picture full size. Right mouse click on the picture, select "Copy Image Location" & click it.

Go the forum and click "Reply". Select the image icon at the top of the Reply box (looks like 2 mountains & the moon) paste in the Image Location that you copied from the PH Website. The picture should appear in your Reply. Check using "Preview".]


I believe what geca is trying to say is that red is leading edge and yellow is trailing edge.
 
To simply post a picture that is already on the internet, get it full size and right click the mouse on the picture & "Copy Image Location". Then, if not already open, open the forum Reply box and click the image icon. "Paste" the Image Location into the box that appears.... Less than one minute.... A good way to try the process of posting pictures. View the reply with "More Options..." & "Preview..."

(Thumbnails are the small size pictures that are used to show you what is there. You usually don't want to copy thumbnails because they are too small. You want to get the picture to proper size before right clicking on it with the mouse.)

(If the picture is on the internet you don't need to use the MS Snipping Tool or a photo hosting website, take less than a minute. Using the Snipping Tool and a photo hosting website adds a few minutes.)

With that Dimetrov backhand picture you could simply say that the racket was 'closed' just before (or after?) impact.

I did not know how to post pictures for about a year after I first started analyzing serves.....
 
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For the analysis of stroke details words are often cumbersome, ambiguous, especially as the complexity of what is being discussed goes up a level as the ESR-ISR issue does. Why limit the discussions to word descriptions?

For much more capability, Kinovea is an open source video analysis program that is very powerful, easy to use and free. Here is an example showing detail that would be very, very difficult to describe using only words. Text plus Kinovea can communicate stroke analyses.

This analysis was not for ISR but for examining how the upper arm moves relative to the chest. The video pauses to show each of the angles.

Do you have to figure out when and where in the stroke the arm-to-chest angle is being discussed? Try describing to the reader that same angle motion with words.

Word descriptions for tennis strokes alone are very limiting and can be misleading, wastes time of the writer and reader......
 
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chetrbox

Rookie
well done :)

now grab a racket and start rolling the ball lol.... on the progression, I'd see something like this -

step 1 - mini tennis/drop hit/ball machine - burn that isr/esr into muscle memory, contact point around chest high.. make sure you avoid the common mistakes of pronation/supination.

step 2 - full court hitting, moderate pace; contact point around chest high.

step 3 - full court hitting, various ball heights - when you get to this point you will have questions on how to handle high/low balls.... we can discuss further :)

step 4 - start using the shot in matches; mixing with slices etc.

6-12 months later it should reach full potential.
geca, this thread was a great read mainly due to your input. No one seems to have asked about step 3 in above. Could you share your ideas for handing balls lower than chest high with this ESR technique? Specifically for deep balls to the backhand. Is it possible to stay on the baseline and play them without moving back. Is it just about switching to the continental grip and bending the knees more to get lower? I'm guessing if I can hit chest high balls and shin high balls, i should be able to figure out the knee and waist high balls.
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
i have watched a lot of videos and somehow they all missed 1 KEY component that is more important than everything else. what the hand/arm is actually doing during the shot.

if you hold the racket up right with a back hand grip, and start doing a wind-shield wiping motion without changing the loft the racket, what is the hand/arm really doing?

I think this should be the very first step in the 1hbh progression. if you can do mini tennis with this wiping motion. You have learned the 1hbh.
Don't understand what you're saying here with the mini tennis and wiper motion.
 
Last edited: Mar 5, 2017"[/QUOTE]
Don't understand what you're saying here with the mini tennis and wiper motion.
the correct answer is internal shoulder rotation followed by external shoulder rotation. shadow this with an eastern grip you will see the face angle stay the same beautifully. your brain will know this and will give the go-ahead to your entire body to unleash power and rip the shot.

The 1hbh may look like throwing a frizbee or drawing a sword... in reality it is definitely not lol.
It looks as if geca was last seen in April 2017. Too bad.....

geca had some wonderful information on the one hand backhand. He understood the ISR then ESR rotation of the one hand backhand. The off arm brings the racket down with ISR and then ESR of the hitting arm is used for impact for top spin.

Looking at the best one hand backhands, that is what you see.

I don't know anything about mini tennis, I guess the racket motion of ISR then ESR by itself will return the ball . ??


For this quoted post below, I must have read geca's post above but had not understood what he was saying.

Videos of the ISR to ESR motion --

Regarding the racket drop motion before the start of the forward swing on the backhand drive - It looks as if the racket, hand and arm are mainly being rotated down by the back arm -

See racket high point in take back and drop before the forward swing. Backhand starts around second 56, racket drop 1:07.

Gasquet, see similar racket drop on several drives.
To examine single frame 1) click "Vimeo", 2) Hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

Lopez, see similar racket drop. Starts at second 7. But Lopez's stroke is different on the forward motion. See post #98.

I don't know the function of the racket drop motion of the one hand backhand drive. Is it to position the racket for the incoming ball height? Or, to rotate hand to cause internal shoulder rotation and/or pronation and prestretch ESR and supination muscles. Both functions? Other?

In a Tennis Chanel Academy show, Justine Henin demos this racket drop slowly. I would say that her slow demo does not portray the racket drop very accurately in comparison to the high speed video. Also, she demos ESR and/or supination after impact perhaps indicating pre-stretching was used. ?

What does the racket drop do?
This post from another thread shows a comparison and analysis of poster Mojo28's one hand backhand drive and Gasquet's from the start of the forward racket motion. Note the chest and upper arm of the high level backhand.

[ Note for new readers - It is necessary for this analysis to understand the defined joint motions of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm between the shoulder joint and elbow does not go anywhere, it just spins like a top around the upper arm's center line.]

Pictures of each frame of Mojo's video. The time scales are in milliseconds with "0" milliseconds being impact. -267 milliseconds is about 1/4 second before impact.

I point out differences between better high level strokes and the poster's strokes. A poster can select a high level stroke and copy it or use some other stroke model. Or, go with instruction or on their own without a model or instruction.

Mojo's ball is lower than Gasquet's. Compare similar ball heights for better analysis.

Frame at -267 ms. It looks as if at 267 milliseconds before impact the OP has turned his shoulders back to about the same angle as Gasquet has. Compare also shoulder turn angles at impact, at Frame -0 ms. The positions of the arms and rackets are different. Gasquet's racket has not come down and is still in front of his body. Is Mojo copying some other backhand stroke? Mojo has also done pronation to bring the racket down. Impression is that Mojo is doing his own thing. ? (To see angles more accurately, the cameras for both backhands need to view the players and courts from the same angle. Wear tight fitting clothes or a short sleeve shirt to better see the upper arm, elbow angle, etc.)


Frame at -233 ms. Mojo has brought his racket farther down. Gasquet's racket has gone up slightly. Mojo's elbow looks bent more and his upper arm (between the shoulder and elbow) has more downward rotation (ISR). Compare ISR angle to ISR angle as these frames progress.


Frame at -200 ms. Mojo's racket is still lowering and low. Gasquet's is just starting to lower.


Frame at -167 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down from the shoulder joint. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest.


Frame at -133 ms. Mojo's racket still lowering. Gasquet's now lowering with more rapid drop.


Frame at -100 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down at the chest. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest. Gasquet now appears to have started more upper body turn. I believe that to produce this early arm and racket acceleration that Gasquet is pressing hard on his upper arm with his chest powered by the forces of turning his upper body. If a credit card were between his chest and upper arm, would it be pressed tightly? How much upper arm pressing Mojo is doing this is not clear (due to the obscuring shirt and arm angle). But his upper body does not appear to be turning as rapidly.


Frame at -67 ms. The racket head speed developed by any rotation depends on the location of the axis of rotation and the distance out from that rotation axis. Look at the arm and racket angle and the distance out from the location of the rotation axis (guessed for now). It looks as if Mojo's arm angle is not favorable for racket head speed. Also, Mojo's racket is already much more rotated toward the ball trajectory. Gasquet's racket is >180° back from the ball's trajectory. Gasquet's upper arm is pressed to his chest as discussed.


Frame at -33 ms. Look at the racket to ball trajectory angle for Mojo, 45°? Look at the racket to trajectory angle for Gasquet still >180°. The total turns of Mojo's and Gasquet's upper bodies from Frame -267 ms seem somewhat similar, similar average speeds. The upper arm and racket have been used differently. Another motion - now look at the elbow bones and estimate the angular position of internal shoulder rotation, or axial rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. Compare ESR from -33 ms to -0 ms.


Frame at -0 ms closest to impact. The big differences from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms are the angular movement of Gasquet's racket and the much larger movement of his hand in the forward direction in comparison to Mojo. Also, Mojo's racket is open and Gasquet's is closed at impact. Possibly the ball height was a factor in how closed the racket was.? Now look at Gasquet's elbow bones and compare them to Frame -33 ms. Gasquet has done rapid external shoulder rotation (ESR) from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms. That has moved the racket up and added to the topspin that the upward hand path already would have produce without ESR. Because Gasquet brought down his racket earlier with a near straight arm, it caused rapid ISR and pre-stretched his ESR muscles, he is using those stretched muscles in this frame. (Search the Stretch Shorten Cycle).


Frame at +33ms after impact. Mojo's hand and racket go more forward. Gasquet's goes more forward and up. ESR has continued.


Frame at +67 ms. Comparison of the follow throughs.


Video.
 
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Mojo28

New User
geca, this thread was a great read mainly due to your input. No one seems to have asked about step 3 in above. Could you share your ideas for handing balls lower than chest high with this ESR technique? Specifically for deep balls to the backhand. Is it possible to stay on the baseline and play them without moving back. Is it just about switching to the continental grip and bending the knees more to get lower? I'm guessing if I can hit chest high balls and shin high balls, i should be able to figure out the knee and waist high balls.
You can find the answer from geca here:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/one-swing-thought-for-1hbh.538671/#post-9487214

I highly recommend the above thread. This mental image helps me A LOT. It can also be applied to forehand as well in my opinion. Too bad geca is gone, I really believe he had amazing stuff to share. I also find his approach on volley technique amazing.
 
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