Sinner passes Roddick!

[Razer]

That's not my point , my point is you can't put 4 slams won in GAS on par with 4 slams before GAS and 4 in 90s was a huge deal. Courier is a tier above Murray

Yeah 4 slams in 90s at a young age should translate to more slams later on, but the problem is even in Courier's era players were not retiring as early as he became geriatric, so maybe we cannot given him benefit of the doubt here. I mean we could give Sampras the benefit of doubt because he played really long, won a slam as a teen and in 30s, we could give him an extra 5-6 years now but Courier was injury prone in that era itself, how can we give him benefit of doubt now ? Even Boris Becker can be given benefit of doubt for his 6 slams because he had superb longveity, his 1st and last slams were separated by 10.5 years. However Courier ???

It is tricky, despite GAS I feel Murray and Courier are in the same tier.

In other words : GAS applies more effectively to the ATGs, not to non ATGs, the non ATGs don't benefit with longevity, if they could not win a lot of slams in their 20s then do you expect them to win in their 30s ? Not everybody is Wawrinka.

 

[GRASScaraz]

Sinner wouldn't win a set vs prime Roddick on grass

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Djokovic fans frequently mistake results for level and quality.

Weren't you a Djokovic fan?

 

[NatF]

Peak Alcaraz vs Peak Roddick 10 matches at each slam?

AO: 7-3 Roddick
FO: 9-1 Alcaraz
WI: 6.5-3.5 Roddick
US: 7-3

 

[NeutralFan]

Yeah 4 slams in 90s at a young age should translate to more slams later on, but the problem is even in Courier's era players were not retiring as early as he became geriatric, so maybe we cannot given him benefit of the doubt here. I mean we could give Sampras the benefit of doubt because he played really long, won a slam as a teen and in 30s, we could give him an extra 5-6 years now but Courier was injury prone in that era itself, how can we give him benefit of doubt now ? Even Boris Becker can be given benefit of doubt for his 6 slams because he had superb longveity, his 1st and last slams were separated by 10.5 years. However Courier ???

It is tricky, despite GAS I feel Murray and Courier are in the same tier.

In other words : GAS applies more effectively to the ATGs, not to non ATGs, the non ATGs don't benefit with longevity, if they could not win a lot of slams in their 20s then do you expect them to win in their 30s ? Not everybody is Wawrinka.

Again winning 4 slams in 90s were far tougher than post 2002 , even Becker had just 6 Slams , i didn't even talk about GAS.you can't put Murray = Courier when Murray has one slam less in an inflated era, that's sheer insanity.

 

[GabeT]

Djokovic fans frequently mistake results for level and quality.

Most fans understand results is what we can compare, and that no one here has any clue how to compare levels across time with any consistency. It’s the TMF rule

 

[NatF]

Most fans understand results is what we can compare, and that no one here has any clue how to compare levels across time with any consistency. It’s the TMF rule

Of course some do

 

[Razer]

Again winning 4 slams in 90s were far tougher than post 2002 , even Becker had just 6 Slams , i didn't even talk about GAS.you can't put Murray = Courier when Murray has one slam less in an inflated era, that's sheer insanity.

Becker has 64.71% win record vs Top 10 while Murray and Courier have 52% and 42% respectively
Becker has 63.89% win record vs top 10 in BEST OF 5 matches while Murray and Courier have 45% and 46.5% respectively
Becker has 61.82% win record vs Top 5 while Murray and Courier have 43% and 37% respectively
Becker has 56% win record vs top 5 in BEST OF 5 while Murray and Courier have 29% and 42% respectively

No comparison, Boris Becker was far above Murray/Courier while Murray and Courier are similar players, if given more longevity then Becker can win more but I don't think Courier or Murray would win more. I have no liking for Murray but I feel Courier was not that great either. See GAS could make ATGs extend their primes or slow down their decline but how will GAS help a non ATG whose body itself broke down midway into his career ??? I don't get it....

 

[GabeT]

Of course some do

Of course they don’t. That’s why they stick to talking about hypothetical matches and discussing time travel tennis. So much easier to drone on and on about things that can never be disproven.

 

[NatF]

Of course they don’t. That’s why they stick to talking about hypothetical matches and discussing time travel tennis. So much easier to drone on and on about things that can never be disproven.

If you say so

 

[dapchai]

Peak Alcaraz vs Peak Roddick 10 matches at each slam?

ao: roddick 10 golden matches
rg: roddick 10 golden matches
wb: roddick 10 golden matches
uso: roddick 10 golden matches

 

[EdMcMush]

i love the retcon of Roddick somehow being an atg on this forum when it helps poeple's narrative.

 

[GabeT]

If you say so

lol, are you claiming you can predict matches that never happened?

 

[MeatTornado]

It doesn't really matter, even if you can make an objective argument that he hasn't yet, it's just delaying the inevitable by a year or two.

Having said that, it's not like Sinner would've won any of the slams Roddick lost to Federer at that age. So it is what it is.

 

[Razer]

If Jim Courier was born in 1981 instead of 1970 then he would still be on 4 Slams @NeutralFan

He wins

2002 French Open
2003 Aus Open
2003 French Open
2004 French Open

This is how his resume would look like, he was also not far better than Murray. GAS does not help him at all because he cannot take on Federer on Grass and on HCs will have Safin and Federer both to deal with even if he takes out Hewitt and Roddick. That leaves only Clay where he was dominant but for how long? His time would only exist until Bull inevitably arrives in 2005.

Am I right ???? @NonP @BorgTheGOAT @RS @Hitman

 

[nolefam_2024]

It doesn't really matter, even if you can make an objective argument that he hasn't yet, it's just delaying the inevitable by a year or two.

Having said that, it's not like Sinner would've won any of the slams Roddick lost to Federer at that age. So it is what it is.

Why not

Sinner can rocket serves to Federers backhand. He is superior baseliner than Fed already.

 

[NatF]

lol, are you claiming you can predict matches that never happened?

Yes, I can confidently predict for example that 2011 Djokovic would defeat 2002 Johansson at the AO among many other match-ups. It's really not that hard. Of course there are match-ups which are much closer in level and therefore harder to predict and there is a natural variance in how someone might perform on the day. But there's nothing wrong with making educated guesses. The fact you try to gatekeep something which is so common place not just in tennis but all sports is really quite bizarre.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

If Jim Courier was born in 1981 instead of 1970 then he would still be on 4 Slams @NeutralFan

He wins

2002 French Open
2003 Aus Open
2003 French Open
2004 French Open

This is how his resume would look like, he was also not far better than Murray. GAS does not help him at all because he cannot take on Federer on Grass and on HCs will have Safin and Federer both to deal with even if he takes out Hewitt and Roddick. That leaves only Clay where he was dominant but for how long? His time would only exist until Bull inevitably arrives in 2005.

Am I right ???? @NonP @BorgTheGOAT @RS @Hitman

4 slams sounds right for Jim in any era. Not more though.

 

[MeatTornado]

Why not

Sinner can rocket serves to Federers backhand. He is superior baseliner than Fed already.

Unlike the notoriously weak server Andy Roddick.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Unlike the notoriously weak server Andy Roddick.

Exactly like Roddick

But then Sinner's game is vastly superior to Roddick's.

Sinner can do both. And he will beat Fed many times if they faced.

This is not even peak Sinner and already dominating the scenes.

 

[Pheasant]

The problem that I have with Roddick is that he really didn't dominate top opponents. Even if we back out peak Federer, who was truly ridiculous at his peak(24 straight wins vs top 10, 56 straight wins on hard courts, 65 straight wins on grass), Roddick still looks rather blah against top opponents.

Roddick's record vs top-10 while excluding Federer:
2003: 5-3
2004: 6-3
2005: 2-3
2006: 1-4
2007: 5-4
2008: 3-6
2009: 5-5
Total: 27-28, .491

It gets clearly much worse if we add Federer to the equation.

Roddick's peak has mostly been reduced to two years; 2003 and 2004. There, he went 11-6 vs the top-10 when excluding Federer. Sinner's 2-year peak(2023-2024) has him going 23-10 vs all of the top-10.

As much as I want to back compatriot Roddick; I can't do it.

 

[nolefam_2024]

The problem that I have with Roddick is that he really didn't dominate top opponents. Even if we back out peak Federer, who was truly ridiculous at his peak(24 straight wins vs top 10, 56 straight wins on hard courts, 65 straight wins on grass), Roddick still looks rather blah against top opponents.

Roddick's record vs top-10 while excluding Federer:
2003: 5-3
2004: 6-3
2005: 2-3
2006: 1-4
2007: 5-4
2008: 3-6
2009: 5-5
Total: 27-28, .491

It gets clearly much worse if we add Federer to the equation.

Roddick's peak has mostly been reduced to two years; 2003 and 2004. There, he went 11-6 vs the top-10 when excluding Federer. Sinner's 2-year peak(2023-2024) has him going 23-10 vs all of the top-10.

As much as I want to back compatriot Roddick; I can't do it.

Even 2023 Sinner was not as solid, although he was very much near to his 2024 level. I think he is going to improve.

 

[GabeT]

Yes, I can confidently predict for example that 2011 Djokovic would defeat 2002 Johansson at the AO among many other match-ups. It's really not that hard. Of course there are match-ups which are much closer in level and therefore harder to predict and there is a natural variance in how someone might perform on the day. But there's nothing wrong with making educated guesses. The fact you try to gatekeep something which is so common place not just in tennis but all sports is really quite bizarre.

Please, if you want to debate let’s be serious. Obviously I’m not talking about whether I could beat Federer or any other such extreme example. You claiming that 2011 Novak would beat 2002 Johansson does not create any debates here. No one is arguing those types of comparisons.

It’s when posters claim they know that Roddick would easily beat current top players (like Medvedev) that debates begin. That’s where we have to accept we have no way of proving this one way or the other.

And let’s not forget that the main purpose of “predicting” such matches is so that one fan base can use that to argue their fav player is better than what the results indicate

 

[MeatTornado]

Exactly like Roddick

But then Sinner's game is vastly superior to Roddick's.

Sinner can do both. And he will beat Fed many times if they faced.

This is not even peak Sinner and already dominating the scenes.

I don't even have time to unpack how much wrongness there is here.

Sinner having a better overall ground game than Roddick is the only thing I can agree with.

 

[nolefam_2024]

I don't even have time to unpack how much wrongness there is here.

Sinner having a better overall ground game than Roddick is the only thing I can agree with.

There is nothing wrong with what I said.
You guys have put Fed on pedestal. Not able to see Sinner's brilliance. His backhand is a huge weapon now becoming even bigger than Djokovic's.

 

[MeatTornado]

There is nothing wrong with what I said.
You guys have put Fed on pedestal. Not able to see Sinner's brilliance. His backhand is a huge weapon now becoming even bigger than Djokovic's.

Sorry, I'm just not taking any arguments seriously from someone who just described Sinner's serve as the same as Roddick's.

We'll agree to disagree and move on.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Del Potro has barely better FH potency than Sinner and is worse in every other criteria and he has 7-18 H2H vs Fed.

Sinner is Delpo on roids. Both sides going big.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sorry, I'm just not taking any arguments seriously from someone who just described Sinner's serve as the same as Roddick's.

We'll agree to disagree and move on.

I did not say Sinner's serve is same as roddick's. You diverted the topic where I said how Sinner will beat Fed.

Booming serves many can do, Roddick is far better than Sinner at it but is far worse on every single other criteria.

I think you are getting mixed up.

 

[NatF]

Please, if you want to debate let’s be serious. Obviously I’m not talking about whether I could beat Federer or any other such extreme example. You claiming that 2011 Novak would beat 2002 Johansson does not create any debates here. No one is arguing those types of comparisons.

It’s when posters claim they know that Roddick would easily beat current top players (like Medvedev) that debates begin. That’s where we have to accept we have no way of proving this one way or the other.

And let’s not forget that the main purpose of “predicting” such matches is so that one fan base can use that to argue their fav player is better than what the results indicate

I think Roddick would easily beat Medvedev on grass, does that count?

 

[MeatTornado]

I did not say Sinner's serve is same as roddick's. You diverted the topic where I said how Sinner will beat Fed.

Booming serves many can do, Roddick is far better than Sinner at it but is far worse on every single other criteria.

I think you are getting mixed up.

You literally used the words "exactly like Roddick," and went on to say Sinner can do both (as in serve + ground game).

There was nothing to imply in your post that Roddick was far better at it. I didn't misinterpret your words, you just used needless hyperbole for some reason.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You literally used the words "exactly like Roddick," and went on to say Sinner can do both (as in serve + ground game).

There was nothing to imply in your post that Roddick was far better at it. I didn't misinterpret your words, you just used needless hyperbole for some reason.

Yes I said exactly like Roddick in the sense Roddick could do the damage on serve.
I am not stupid to say Sinner's serve is just like Roddick's. In fact I agreed to the same few posts ago.

Sinner passes Roddick!

As of this week, Sinner has officially passed Andy Roddick in the number of weeks at No.1 and slam count, Sinner has 14 weeks at No.1 and Rod 13 weeks. Has Sinner At only 23 years old surpassed Roddick in both greatness and playing level Despite not having to play Prime Federer?

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

All Roddick has is his serve. Even Sinner's fh is already better than Roddick's peak FH

 

[Pheasant]

Sinner's baseline game is so wickedly good, that he's easily holding serve when missing a large chunk of his first serves. And his first serve is rather pedestrian. He doesn't get a large percentage in and his ace-rate is rather pedestrian.

Here's a 52-week look-back on hard courts(by far Sinner's best surface) for Sinner's serving:
7.1 aces per match, which is ranked 31st
61.1% first serve in percentage, which is ranked 35th

Despite the stats above, he's won 90.8% of his service games, which is #1 by a wide margin(Hurkacz is #2 at 89.5%). Sinner's margin over #2 Hurkacz(1.3%) is the same margin that #2 Hurkacz has over #7 Jarry.

Walldevev, an excellent baseliner himself, is holding serve at an 81.4% clip on hard courts during the past 52 weeks, to put things into perspective.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sinner's baseline game is so wickedly good, that he's easily holding serve when missing a large chunk of his first serves. And his first serve is rather pedestrian. He doesn't get a large percentage in and his ace-rate is rather pedestrian.

Here's a 52-week look-back on hard courts(by far Sinner's best surface) for Sinner's serving:
7.1 aces per match, which is ranked 31st
61.1% first serve in percentage, which is ranked 35th

Despite the stats above, he's won 90.8% of his service games, which is #1 by a wide margin(Hurkacz is #2 at 89.5%). Sinner's margin over #2 Hurkacz(1.3%) is the same margin that #2 Hurkacz has over #7 Jarry.

Walldevev, an excellent baseliner himself, is holding serve at an 81.4% clip on hard courts during the past 52 weeks, to put things into perspective.

For last 52 weeks Sinner's FH and BH both have reached insane height.
If I put that in the formula for baseliners, he might crack top 10 already.

Serve is still an issue but you can see his 2024 improvement over 2023 already.
Ace rate (all surfaces) increased from 8.2 to 9.6 %
DF rate increased modestly from 2.4 to 2.5 %
Last 52 might be old criteria already, he is improving so fast.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You put his career ace rate not last 52.
He is at 9.3% on HC last 52 which should be very high.
Look at unreturned serves in last 52, he is 20th in this list and none of the top 5 are ahead of him.

Tennis Abstract: Match Charting Project: Men's Serve Leaders: Last 52

 

[MeatTornado]

Yes I said exactly like Roddick in the sense Roddick could do the damage on serve.
I am not stupid to say Sinner's serve is just like Roddick's. In fact I agreed to the same few posts ago.

How on Earth is Sinner's serve going to do similar damage if you admit it's not as good as Roddick's? Do you think anyone with just a little pop on their serve can pin peak Federer in his BH corner for weak replies?

And this whole thing is ignoring that the whole reason for the lopsided H2H with Fed/Andy was because Federer was the only one capable of actually neutralizing that serve. He could read it like a book and chip it back super effectively. The 09 Wimbledon final was one of the only times in their careers that it felt like Roger didn't know where it was going.

Sinner's serve is not going to do squat to beat Federer. If he pulls it off, it'll be entirely on his ground game to do it.

 

[nolefam_2024]

How on Earth is Sinner's serve going to do similar damage if you admit it's not as good as Roddick's? Do you think anyone with just a little pop on their serve can pin peak Federer in his BH corner for weak replies?

And this whole thing is ignoring that the whole reason for the lopsided H2H with Fed/Andy was because Federer was the only one capable of actually neutralizing that serve. He could read it like a book and chip it back super effectively. The 09 Wimbledon final was one of the only times in their careers that it felt like Roger didn't know where it was going.

Sinner's serve is not going to do squat to beat Federer. If he pulls it off, it'll be entirely on his ground game to do it.

Its much better serve than Nadal and quickly becoming better than Djokovic's serve.
He has the ground game just like them. He has full package.

The biggest leaking of errors is going to come from backhand of Federer which sinner would keep attacking.

 

[Pheasant]

You put his career ace rate not last 52.
He is at 9.3% on HC last 52 which should be very high.
Look at unreturned serves in last 52, he is 20th in this list and none of the top 5 are ahead of him.

Tennis Abstract: Match Charting Project: Men's Serve Leaders: Last 52

I pulled the stats off of the ATP website. I've heard before they aren't reliable stats. The numbers that you are posting make a lot more sense.

Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis

Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.

www.atptour.com

• Serve Leaders

Versus All Players
52 Weeks
Surface Hard

	Player	Serve Rating​	% 1st Serve​	% 1st Serve Points Won​	% 2st Serve Points Won​	% Service Games Won​	Avg. Aces/ Match​	Avg. Double Faults/Match​
1	Hubert Hurkacz	298.1​	63.2%​	79.5%​	53.0%​	89.5%​	14.6​	1.7​
2	Alexander Zverev	297.3​	72.0%​	74.4%​	54.8%​	88.9%​	9.3​	2.1​
3	Taylor Fritz	292.5​	60.9%​	76.9%​	57.4%​	88.3%​	11.3​	2.3​
4	Jannik Sinner	292.5​	61.1%​	77.7%​	57.6%​	90.8%​	7.1​	1.8​
5	Ben Shelton	292.5​	67.7%​	75.8%​	54.0%​	88.2%​	10.1​	3.3​

 

[tennis_pro]

Taylor Swift is arguably the most famous person in the world. Roger Feddy is merely a tennis player. QED. Swift is by far the more difficult opponent to conquer.

Yes popularity over level anyday.

Kim Kardashian > Tesla

 

[nolefam_2024]

I pulled the stats off of the ATP website. I've heard before they aren't reliable stats. The numbers that you are posting make a lot more sense.

Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis

Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.

www.atptour.com

• Serve Leaders

Versus All Players
52 Weeks
Surface Hard

	Player	Serve Rating​	% 1st Serve​	% 1st Serve Points Won​	% 2st Serve Points Won​	% Service Games Won​	Avg. Aces/ Match​	Avg. Double Faults/Match​
1	Hubert Hurkacz	298.1​	63.2%​	79.5%​	53.0%​	89.5%​	14.6​	1.7​
2	Alexander Zverev	297.3​	72.0%​	74.4%​	54.8%​	88.9%​	9.3​	2.1​
3	Taylor Fritz	292.5​	60.9%​	76.9%​	57.4%​	88.3%​	11.3​	2.3​
4	Jannik Sinner	292.5​	61.1%​	77.7%​	57.6%​	90.8%​	7.1​	1.8​
5	Ben Shelton	292.5​	67.7%​	75.8%​	54.0%​	88.2%​	10.1​	3.3​

Even then Sinner's serve rating is so good.
His second serve needs a lot of work but winning 57.6% still shows what kind of baseliner he has become.

He will clean up his first serve a bit more to land more times but that second serve is exploitable.

 

[tennis_pro]

That doesn't make him any less responsible for never having beaten Federer in GS tournaments, especially in the Wimbledon finals in 2004 and 2009 and, even worse, for having a horrible h2h against him of 21-3, Roddick being one year younger than the Swiss.

It doesnt, but it also doesnt give him a free pass just because he won more today. If you put him in Roddicks shoes he doesnt win crap.

 

[NatF]

Its much better serve than Nadal and quickly becoming better than Djokovic's serve.
He has the ground game just like them. He has full package.

The biggest leaking of errors is going to come from backhand of Federer which sinner would keep attacking.

What a rudimentary understanding of tennis you have, Sinner's serve doesn't have the lefty slice that Nadal's has to draw weak replies and open up the court.

 

[ND-13]

Sinneraz are going to get 50-55 majors between them and we are asking if they are better than Medvedev, Berdych, Roddick and Murray ??

 

[Racquet_smash]

As of now it's probably even. It's not like Roddick beat world besters to archieve his US Open title.

Sinner will surely reach better heights in a couple of years.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Its much better serve than Nadal and quickly becoming better than Djokovic's serve.
He has the ground game just like them. He has full package.

The biggest leaking of errors is going to come from backhand of Federer which sinner would keep attacking.

Sinner's serve is garbage for how tall he is.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sinner's serve is garbage for how tall he is.

Stupid claim

Nadal's serve is garbage. Sinner's serve is above average. You are overreaching

 

[Pheasant]

Even then Sinner's serve rating is so good.
His second serve needs a lot of work but winning 57.6% still shows what kind of baseliner he has become.

He will clean up his first serve a bit more to land more times but that second serve is exploitable.

His serve is still good. But I hope for the sake of the ATP that he doesn't develop an elite serve. Because if he does, then it's game over for the rest of the ATP.

I don't have a horse in this race, which is refreshing. I hope to see epic close battles each year. But Sinner with an elite serve would cause us to see ridiculous domination.

 

[GabeT]

I think Roddick would easily beat Medvedev on grass, does that count?

I don’t think that’s the debate, is it? I think the issue with Med is more on HC.

But I’m addressing a broader point. Claims that Roddrick would, in general, dominate this era (one thread mentioned him winning 15 slams as I recall), or at least win much more than current active players, are generally proposed by posters that want to improve Roddick’s standing as a way of improving Fed’s competition.

 

[NatF]

I don’t think that’s the debate, is it? I think the issue with Med is more on HC.

But I’m addressing a broader point. Claims that Roddrick would, in general, dominate this era (one thread mentioned him winning 15 slams as I recall), or at least win much more than current active players, are generally proposed by posters that want to improve Roddick’s standing as a way of improving Fed’s competition.

Not sure about this Roddrick dominating this era, but I don't think anything but a small minority think Roddick would be truly dominant right now. I think he would see clearly superior results to what he achieved in 2003-2009 though.

Perhaps you should consider whether these posters might be right about Roddick’s standing, rather than just attributing it to Fed bias

 

[RS]

I don’t think that’s the debate, is it? I think the issue with Med is more on HC.

But I’m addressing a broader point. Claims that Roddrick would, in general, dominate this era (one thread mentioned him winning 15 slams as I recall), or at least win much more than current active players, are generally proposed by posters that want to improve Roddick’s standing as a way of improving Fed’s competition.

He could have added a slam or 2 more but 15 slams pushes it way to far that must be trolling.

 

[NatF]

He could have added a slam or 2 more but 15 slams pushes it way to far that must be trolling.

I've never seen anyone say Roddick could have won 15 slams lol. I've seen some say 6 slams, which a bridge too far for sure but never 15.