Sinner s woes are not over. WADA is considering appeal

See this is my impression as well just from an outside perspective. I am a little familiar with the drug testing in baseball in the states. I am not aware of a policy that says well if he has a good defense we dont tell anyone, yet will tell them after we have cleared him. And that seems to be the policy here. Which is in my opinion just weird.

See I guess my problem is what if they found he was doping on purpose after the investigation? They just let you play after you fail a test for a couple months? Then say oh he doped by the way we knew this 3 months ago but we kept letting him play. That makes no sense to me.
Precisely why the IOC wouldn’t have let him play the Olympics. Can you imagine if the decision was that he did knowingly dope and Sinner was the one who won Olympic gold as the top seed? And they had to strip him of the Olympic medal? Insanity. That would have ruined tennis. For that matter though, imagine the decision was he doped and he had won the French Open or Wimbledon. It’s almost like they already had in their mind what the result would be months before and didn’t announce it til a convenient time….
 
Precisely why the IOC wouldn’t have let him play the Olympics. Can you imagine if the decision was that he did dope and Sinner was the one who won Olympic gold as the top seed? And they had to strip him of the Olympic medal? Insanity. For that matter though, imagine the decision was he failed and he had won the French Open or Wimbledon. It’s almost like they already had in their mind what the result would be months before and didn’t announce it til a convenient time….
I mean think of this Aussie. The investigation for whatever bureaucratic reason doesn't wrap up till after the open? Then they say oh by the way he doped and we have found him guilty. WTF? Can you imagine?
 
Which one is the more likely steroid user?
:rolleyes:

image.png
image.png
 
The WADA has often appealed doping decisions in other sports (swimming, bicycling, soccer, etc).
But despite the numerous doping cases in tennis there is no record of WADA ever appealing a tennis doping decision.
Why? Because tennis doping cases are tried by an ITIA Tribunal of indepndent scientists and doping experts who don't know Sinner from a hole in the ground.
The WADA has historically always deferred to the ITIA Tribunal and does not appeal their findings.
So everybody needs to get that silly notion out of their minds. It is not happening.

Dr Raul has given y’all the bottom line. Now it is time to move on.

 
You got that wrong. It's USADA which went after Armstrong. It was a new organisation with a politically connected head. He wanted a big scalp to "announce themselves". Armstrong got taken down by his people.

Lance Armstrong? They obsessively went after him.
 
It's perfectly intelligible. Sinner chose to keep playing and for the investigation to be conducted in camera so his reputation was not unnecessarily damaged. And the concussion is that he bears "no fault" Move on!

I mean think of this Aussie. The investigation for whatever bureaucratic reason doesn't wrap up till after the open? Then they say oh by the way he doped and we have found him guilty. WTF? Can you imagine?
 
Precisely why the IOC wouldn’t have let him play the Olympics. Can you imagine if the decision was that he did knowingly dope and Sinner was the one who won Olympic gold as the top seed? And they had to strip him of the Olympic medal? Insanity. That would have ruined tennis. For that matter though, imagine the decision was he doped and he had won the French Open or Wimbledon. It’s almost like they already had in their mind what the result would be months before and didn’t announce it til a convenient time….
No one cares about Oly tennis but Egg and Dr Raul. Nor does it matter if a doper wins Oly medal. The Chineeeeeese and Soviets routinely dope. The Soviets even forced a 15 year old child skater to dope. The entire history of the Soviets at Oly both directly and formerly through their East German vassals has been one of doping. Yet we still play together. Doping is not a major problem in tennis because tennis mostly attracts ladies and gentlemen with an occasional scalawag like Nick.
 
It is an argumentative error of the worst kind to assert "others do it so why can't he".

No one cares about Oly tennis but Egg and Dr Raul. Nor does it matter if a doper wins Oly medal. The Chineeeeeese and Soviets routinely dope. The Soviets even forced a 15 year old child skater to dope. The entire history of the Soviets at Oly both directly and formerly through their East German vassals has been one of doping. Yet we still play together. Doping is not a major problem in tennis because tennis mostly attracts ladies and gentlemen.
 
Actually the fact that this guy tested positive twice on same year he dominated the tour and data shows he's the player that hits with the heaviest ball makes me think the rest of the tour is relatively clean.
 
This is about as convincing ss 2 plus 2 equals 5.

Actually the fact that this guy tested positive twice on same year he dominated the tour and data shows he's the player that hits with the heaviest ball makes me think the rest of the tour is relatively clean.
 
See I guess my problem is what if they found he was doping on purpose after the investigation? They just let you play after you fail a test for a couple months? Then say oh he doped by the way we knew this 3 months ago but we kept letting him play. That makes no sense to me.

I have to say that it's disappointing that after having multiple people here explain some of the basic principles to you and refer you to relevant and helpful sources of information, you've reverted to the, "Yeah, well, I don't understand it so it must be rotten" perspective that has so infected this forum. I guess it's hard not to join in when other posters say, "Imagine this!" and "Just imagine that!" and "That's crazy!" and "He's no. 1, so there must be a cover-up," and similar statements that have no basis in fact but that get people excited enough to bestow "Likes" on them.

For the record, there was never any finding that Sinner was "doping." That's a key point that I've explained many times and that all the conspiracy theorists just refuse to understand. A positive test for a banned substance does not automatically equal "doping." Feel free to read that statement twice if one time is insufficient. The whole point of the ITIA investigation and hearing process was to determine how and why Sinner did test positive. I.e., was Sinner's explanation of inadvertent exposure supported by evidence, or should that claim be rejected, and Sinner subjected to significant discipline? "Doping" refers to a systematic, intentional use of performance-enhancing drugs with the purpose of obtaining an athletic advantage. There is absolutely no evidence of anything of the kind in this case. There never was any such evidence.
 
A positive test for a banned substance does not automatically equal "doping."

Carrot didn’t dispute that he violated TADP 2.1 (presence) and TADP 2.2 (use).

WADA Code 2021, ARTICLE 1  DEFINITION OF DOPING

“Doping is defined as the occurrence of one or more of the anti-doping rule violations set forth in Article 2.1 through Article 2.11 of the Code.”
 
Last edited:
I have to say that it's disappointing that after having multiple people here explain some of the basic principles to you and refer you to relevant and helpful sources of information, you've reverted to the, "Yeah, well, I don't understand it so it must be rotten" perspective that has so infected this forum. I guess it's hard not to join in when other posters say, "Imagine this!" and "Just imagine that!" and "That's crazy!" and "He's no. 1, so there must be a cover-up," and similar statements that have no basis in fact but that get people excited enough to bestow "Likes" on them.

For the record, there was never any finding that Sinner was "doping." That's a key point that I've explained many times and that all the conspiracy theorists just refuse to understand. A positive test for a banned substance does not automatically equal "doping." Feel free to read that statement twice if one time is insufficient. The whole point of the ITIA investigation and hearing process was to determine how and why Sinner did test positive. I.e., was Sinner's explanation of inadvertent exposure supported by evidence, or should that claim be rejected, and Sinner subjected to significant discipline? "Doping" refers to a systematic, intentional use of performance-enhancing drugs with the purpose of obtaining an athletic advantage. There is absolutely no evidence of anything of the kind in this case. There never was any such evidence.
And yet Halep did not intentionally dope either but her process was dragged out for over 1.5 years, her career ruined and was delayed multiple times by the ITIA. But she was benched all throughout the investigation. The ITIA handled it so poorly they ended up having to compensate her! How awful???

But Sinner? He was free to play. Not just free to play, headlined tournaments, promoted for slams and Masters. What a look that would have been for the sport had he been found guilty despite the sport keeping everything under wraps for several months and using him to boost their product. Funnily though he wasn't at the Olympics while he was still under investigation for alleged doping and his multiple failed tests. IOC knew how bad it would've been had he won Olympic Gold and then his investigation found him guilty and they'd have to strip him of it.

Not saying it's not in the rules, but my god the differences are stark and obvious for any dumb dumb to see.

Sinner was protected.
 
You do realise the Emeritus Professor doping expert consulted for this case, together with the other two, explicitly stated they found no evidence for any other scenario, including the pretty obvious one you are suggesting? I'm pretty sure they understand the way doping works, and they state that the amount is too little to have been the result of a doping attempt. Accept it! It was a goddamn contamination accident ffs even the experts believe this to be the case!

Sinner's ranking points and winnings from Indian Wells were forfeited despite a finding of accidental contamination and evidence that the substance gave him no performance advantage.
Is Sinner eligible to appeal this decision although he was supposedly "exonerated"? That is not clear. Sinner will likely not choose to pursue it.
But if anybody should appeal this Tribunal decision to the CAS, it should not be the WADA, it should be Sinner, who has just convincingly won NYC without the clostebol.

depositphotos_157523302-stock-photo-court-of-arbitration-for-sport.jpg
 
Sinner's ranking points and winnings from Indian Wells were forfeited despite a finding of accidental contamination and evidence that the substance gave him no performance advantage.
Sinner will not appeal but if anybody should appeal this Tribunal decision to the CAS, it should be Sinner, who has just convincingly won NYC without the clostebol.

depositphotos_157523302-stock-photo-court-of-arbitration-for-sport.jpg
This thread should have been locked after my fav Dr Raul first weighed in with his insights. It’s beyond helpful that you take the time to carefully craft additional insights. That is a lovely photo of the CAS sign.
 
This thread should have been locked after my fav Dr Raul first weighed in with his insights. It’s beyond helpful that you take the time to carefully craft additional insights. That is a lovely photo of the CAS sign.

Halep appealed the Tribunal decision to the CAS and was successful. Granted Halep, unlike Sinner, was found guilty by the Tribunal
Some would like to see Sinner go the extra mile and completely clear his good name and lost ranking points by appealing to the CAS.
But it is not clear if Sinner is eligible to appeal to CAS or has signed away his right to appeal by accepting the Tribunal "no fault" decision.
:unsure:

 
Halep appealed the Tribunal decision to the CAS and was successful. Granted Halep, unlike Sinner, was found guilty by the Tribunal
Some would like to see Sinner go the extra mile and completely clear his good name and lost ranking points by appealing to the CAS.
But it is not clear if Sinner is eligible to appeal to CAS or has signed away his right to appeal by accepting the Tribunal "no fault" decision.
:unsure:

This witch-hunt against the Boy Scout Carrot by WADA thugs needs to end. They already destroyed your fav M. Ymer who was forced to retire for a few days. The FBI will hopefully be arresting some of these corrupt WADA officials shortly. Let us see how they do at the Manhattan detention center.

 
Last edited:
Halep lost at the Tribunal level so then she had to go through CAS so this takes a lot of time.

Sinner wanted to play through his investigation and the Tribunal found no fault.

The difference is, therefore, that Halep lost the Tribunal hearing.

And yet Halep did not intentionally dope either but her process was dragged out for over 1.5 years, her career ruined and was delayed multiple times by the ITIA. But she was benched all throughout the investigation. The ITIA handled it so poorly they ended up having to compensate her! How awful???

But Sinner? He was free to play. Not just free to play, headlined tournaments, promoted for slams and Masters. What a look that would have been for the sport had he been found guilty despite the sport keeping everything under wraps for several months and using him to boost their product. Funnily though he wasn't at the Olympics while he was still under investigation for alleged doping and his multiple failed tests. IOC knew how bad it would've been had he won Olympic Gold and then his investigation found him guilty and they'd have to strip him of it.

Not saying it's not in the rules, but my god the differences are stark and obvious for any dumb dumb to see.

Sinner was protected.
 
Wada should appeal. As I understand it he broke their antidoping rules 2.1 AND 2.6 AND 2.8
2.1 A test found illegal substance in his body
2.6 An illegal substance was found in possession of his support staff.
2.8 Administration on him of illegal substance.

Ok, Sinner had explanation of 2.1 and 2.8. But I have never seen any explanation on 2.6 WHY on earth his fitness trainer decided to bring a banned product to US. His coach was asked about it and he just replied, We dont know.
 
Last edited:
I have to say that it's disappointing that after having multiple people here explain some of the basic principles to you and refer you to relevant and helpful sources of information, you've reverted to the, "Yeah, well, I don't understand it so it must be rotten" perspective that has so infected this forum. I guess it's hard not to join in when other posters say, "Imagine this!" and "Just imagine that!" and "That's crazy!" and "He's no. 1, so there must be a cover-up," and similar statements that have no basis in fact but that get people excited enough to bestow "Likes" on them.

For the record, there was never any finding that Sinner was "doping." That's a key point that I've explained many times and that all the conspiracy theorists just refuse to understand. A positive test for a banned substance does not automatically equal "doping." Feel free to read that statement twice if one time is insufficient. The whole point of the ITIA investigation and hearing process was to determine how and why Sinner did test positive. I.e., was Sinner's explanation of inadvertent exposure supported by evidence, or should that claim be rejected, and Sinner subjected to significant discipline? "Doping" refers to a systematic, intentional use of performance-enhancing drugs with the purpose of obtaining an athletic advantage. There is absolutely no evidence of anything of the kind in this case. There never was any such evidence.
No see here is my problem and I have said it 20 times. You seem to think it's so simple. HaleP had her career wrecked because she didnt submit her defense on time? Thats what we are boiling this down to? You say oh it's not complex it's right there. So she gets suspended for a year and a half then they say well we didnt have enough evidence. Free to go.

Sinner tests positive twice hes also found innocent he apparently followed better protocol according to the authorities. So Simona has her career screwed over cause not because she was guilty of intentional doping but because of a paperwork issue. GARBAGE. Something isnt right here and you can act like all of us are idiots but we are not as stupid as you think everybody is. Now you may say well hey man those are just the breaks. But she gets dragged through the mud for 2 years to prove her innocence. He gets to have a non public investigation, and is then declared innocent. It stinks. Period. And you can keep on going on about well you are just so dumb and just read the documents but it doesn't make sense. And at the very least it isnt fair.
 
Halep lost at the Tribunal level. Sinner won at the Tribunal level. She had to spend time going through CAS as a result.

The reality is that anti-doping needs to be simplified radically. Getting rid of out of competition testing would be a good start.
 
Yea I mean I have read a bunch of your guys posts trying to piece together what happened here. I guess my question is for the pro sinner people is has there been an investigation that went down like this before?

No but one rare such case doesn't make him guilty, does it?
 
No but one rare such case doesn't make him guilty, does it?
I dont know if hes guilty or not. The people in charge say he is not. My point is these protocols dont appear to be handled in the same way for everyone. At the very least people who have been found innocent in the past whether you believe them or not, have been outed, suspended, and humiliated. That is not right. All I can go by is what I am observing. And it doesn't pass the smell test.
 
Once I was caught for doping, but I gave them a perfectly reasonable and plausible explanation, it’s that when I was a kid, I fell accidentally into a cauldron full of testosterone. Luckily, I have kept the receipts for the cauldron that I showed them to prove my innocence. They bought it without any additional questions.
 
Sinner chose to play on and Halep to stop playing. You don't earn any points or money if you play on through an investigation. She was not outed.

I dont know if hes guilty or not. The people in charge say he is not. My point is these protocols dont appear to be handled in the same way for everyone. At the very least people who have been found innocent in the past whether you believe them or not, have been outed, suspended, and humiliated. That is not right. All I can go by is what I am observing. And it doesn't pass the smell test.
 
Sinner chose to play on and Halep to stop playing. You don't earn any points or money if you play on through an investigation. She was not outed.
Bart. It's literal lunacy that someone can play through an investigation. What would have happened had he won Wimbledon and then been found guilty. THIS MAKES NO SENSE.


They publicly cleared him as far as I can see on August 20th. Now I have no idea when they actually cleared him. But they announced it August 20th. So this guy was under investigation could have won two slams while under investigation, where they were not sure if he purposely doped or not. This is moronic.
 
Bart. It's literal lunacy that someone can play through an investigation. What would have happened had he won Wimbledon and then been found guilty. THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
Playing through investigations has always happened. For example, Puerta tested positive for etilefrine after the 2005 French Open final, and didn't get his ban until December 2005, playing tennis in between, during which he got into the top 10 for a short time, peaking at number 9.
 
I hope they appeal. It's a bad look for tennis that they're letting top players off with doping offences.
This has been happening for 20 years and folks like Sinner are just public sacrificial goats to give the veneer of strictness and impartiality in the system. Since the early 2000s, players that make money for the sport have and always will be immune to any real prosecution.
 
Playing through investigations has always happened. For example, Puerta tested positive for etilefrine after the 2005 French Open final, and didn't get his ban until December 2005, playing tennis in between, during which he got into the top 10 for a short time, peaking at number 9.
So if Sinner was found guilty of doping, and he won Wimbledon they would have stripped him of it? In August?
 
So if Sinner was found guilty of doping, and he won Wimbledon they would have stripped him of it? In August?
If he tested positive at Wimbledon, it would be at least 2 months before any sentence would be passed, and perhaps longer if there's some sort of further investigation or appeal process going on.

Halep tested positive at the 2022 US Open, and got her ban in October 2022 I believe, around 2 months later.

Sharapova called a press conference in March 2016 to announce that she was pulling out of 2016 Indian Wells due to her positive test from the 2016 Australian Open.
 
If he tested positive at Wimbledon, it would be at least 2 months before any sentence would be passed, and perhaps longer if there's some sort of further investigation or appeal process going on.

Halep tested positive at the 2022 US Open, and got her ban in October 2022 I believe, around 2 months later.

Sharapova called a press conference in March 2016 to announce that she was pulling out of 2016 Indian Wells due to her positive test from the 2016 Australian Open.
He tested positive in March. The investigation ended at least they announced it ending on August 20th. So the people in charge knew he had tested positive. And told no one. He then went on to play the French and Wimbledon along with multiple other tournaments. If he would have won Wimbledon and they had found him guilty they would have had to say well we caught him in March but let him keep playing sorry about that. That is crazy to me.
 
He tested positive in March. The investigation ended at least they announced it ending on August 20th. So the people in charge knew he had tested positive. And told no one. He then went on to play the French and Wimbledon along with multiple other tournaments. If he would have won Wimbledon and they had found him guilty they would have had to say well we caught him in March but let him keep playing sorry about that. That is crazy to me.
Sinner has just won the US Open shortly after avoiding a ban for two failed drug tests. Korda from December 1998 onwards was treated like a pariah, but most of the tennis world seems keen to give Sinner the benefit of the doubt.
 
These are the rules whether you think it makes sense or not. You have to be very confident of your innocence to take this course of action. Sinner was.

Bart. It's literal lunacy that someone can play through an investigation. What would have happened had he won Wimbledon and then been found guilty. THIS MAKES NO SENSE.


They publicly cleared him as far as I can see on August 20th. Now I have no idea when they actually cleared him. But they announced it August 20th. So this guy was under investigation could have won two slams while under investigation, where they were not sure if he purposely doped or not. This is moronic.
 
If he tested positive at Wimbledon, it would be at least 2 months before any sentence would be passed, and perhaps longer if there's some sort of further investigation or appeal process going on.

Halep tested positive at the 2022 US Open, and got her ban in October 2022 I believe, around 2 months later.

Sharapova called a press conference in March 2016 to announce that she was pulling out of 2016 Indian Wells due to her positive test from the 2016 Australian Open.
I think what insideguy meant was, the investigation wasn’t concluded while Sinner was playing Wimbledon. He only got cleared last month but was allowed to play throughout. So the question is, if he was found guilty and had won Wimbledon would his trophy have been stripped?
 
I think what insideguy meant was, the investigation wasn’t concluded while Sinner was playing Wimbledon. He only got cleared last month but was allowed to play throughout. So the question is, if he was found guilty and had won Wimbledon would his trophy have been stripped?
I mean heck they could have rationalized it and been like yea he was guilty of doping in March but he tested ok at Wimbledon. The whole thing seems nuts to me.
 
The answer is quite clearly "yes".

I think what insideguy meant was, the investigation wasn’t concluded while Sinner was playing Wimbledon. He only got cleared last month but was allowed to play throughout. So the question is, if he was found guilty and had won Wimbledon would his trophy have been stripped?
 
I think what insideguy meant was, the investigation wasn’t concluded while Sinner was playing Wimbledon. He only got cleared last month but was allowed to play throughout. So the question is, if he was found guilty and had won Wimbledon would his trophy have been stripped?

it was made public that he was cleared in august but i thought he was cleared way before that. it just leaked in august
 
it was made public that he was cleared in august but i thought he was cleared way before that. it just leaked in august
Nah, the tribunal met in August and then they let Sinner make the announcement when he was cleared which made this all even more shadier.

Other players had it leaked, had the agency reveal it. Sinner got to be at the front of all of this, protected, allowed to play, allowed to announce he was cleared.

Halep meanwhile had her career ruined by the ITIA to the point they had to pay her legal fees. Just awful.
 
Sharapova outed herself because once she understood Meldonium was banned, she had nothing to gain from playing on.

In the CAS decision on her appeal, many adverse comments were made on WADA's notification processes.

Moreover, the Sharapova decision established the principle that players were entitled to rely on the professionalism of their agents.

If not for this latter principle, Sinner would be guilty as he relied on the professionalism of his staff who failed.
 
This has been happening for 20 years and folks like Sinner are just public sacrificial goats to give the veneer of strictness and impartiality in the system. Since the early 2000s, players that make money for the sport have and always will be immune to any real prosecution.
You can go back further than that. It wasn't PEDs, but the ATP completely looked the other way when Agassi failed a drug test in the 90s.

Protecting a golden goose to keep the gravy train running is a timeless endeavor.
 
You got that wrong. It's USADA which went after Armstrong. It was a new organisation with a politically connected head. He wanted a big scalp to "announce themselves". Armstrong got taken down by his people.
Yep, on the money with this Bart. With how seemingly useless USADA has been since then, looked more and more like Tygart was just trying to make a name for himself. Especially when you consider the TUE nonsense that came out later on.
 
it was made public that he was cleared in august but i thought he was cleared way before that. it just leaked in august
The ITIA Tribunal hearing was convened in London on August 15.
International Dispute Resolution Centre Ltd
1 Paternoster Ln, London EC4M 7BQ, United Kingdom

The ITIA announced its decision to exonerate Sinner on August 20.
image.png


https://www.itia.tennis/news/sanctions/independent-tribunal-rules-no-fault-or-negligence-in-case-of-italian-player-jannik-sinner/
 
Last edited:
You can go back further than that. It wasn't PEDs, but the ATP completely looked the other way when Agassi failed a drug test in the 90s.

Protecting a golden goose to keep the gravy train running is a timeless endeavor.
Doping should be all about PED's. Recreational drugs like alcohol, amfetamin, cocaine, heroin etc don't have a positive effect on your game - on the contrary.
 
No see here is my problem and I have said it 20 times. You seem to think it's so simple. HaleP had her career wrecked because she didnt submit her defense on time? Thats what we are boiling this down to? You say oh it's not complex it's right there. So she gets suspended for a year and a half then they say well we didnt have enough evidence. Free to go.

Sinner tests positive twice hes also found innocent he apparently followed better protocol according to the authorities. So Simona has her career screwed over cause not because she was guilty of intentional doping but because of a paperwork issue. GARBAGE. Something isnt right here and you can act like all of us are idiots but we are not as stupid as you think everybody is. Now you may say well hey man those are just the breaks. But she gets dragged through the mud for 2 years to prove her innocence. He gets to have a non public investigation, and is then declared innocent. It stinks. Period. And you can keep on going on about well you are just so dumb and just read the documents but it doesn't make sense. And at the very least it isnt fair.
We completely agree that the whole process is draconian and leads to many unfair situations and destroyed lives. I'm very sympathetic with Halep's situation and with that other #700 Italian player who's been banned for 4 years after being ghosted by his physio. It's mental and something really needs to change. Fortunately it doesn't happen every time. But this discussion on the unfairness of the system towards Halep and others really deserves a separate thread IMO.
 
Back
Top