SinnerRaz now down 4-3 against Zed and Med since USO 23

[InsideOut900]

• Zverev def Sinner in 5 sets USO 23
• Raz def Zverev in 3 sets USO 23
• Med def Raz in 4 sets USO 23
• Zverev def Raz in 4 sets at AO 24
• Sinner def Med in 5 sets at AO 24
• Raz def Zverev in 5 sets at RG 24
• Med def Sinner in 5 sets at Wimbledon 24

In 2 of these wins at AO 24 and RG 24, Zverev and Medvedev led 2-0 and 2-1 and collapsed midway through the match.

Funny how these aren't even the peak 2021-mid 2022 versions of Medvedev and Zverev either and yet it's so easy to put the future ATG mantra on Sinner and Raz, who are stuggling like hell in every single Slam against worse competition than 3 years ago.

 

[RS]

Good post but I want to see Sinner and Raz fans defend this

 

[RF-18]

Diamond age showing who's boss!

 

[GRASScaraz]

How many slams did they win in that period?

 

[InsideOut900]

How many slams did they win in that period?

Does it matter? These guys were always considered perpetual chokers.
Doing 5% better than them, while Novak and Nadal are nowhere to be found make Sinner and Raz how good exactly?

No wonder Novak nearly mopped both 2021 and 2023 for a Calendar Slam.

 

[SonnyT]

Med upset Carlos at 23 US. Maybe we should group Med with Carl & Jannike, rather than that King of Choke!

 

[Milanez82]

Sinner and Alcaraz lead 4-1 in slams the only relevant stat.
While having how many less seasons on tour?

 

[Hawaiian grip]

Why is Alcaraz lumped together with Sinner here? Alcaraz is 4-2 vs Med overall, and 4-1 since early 2023 if you wanna talk about that season, as Medvedev got one win at W vs Baby Carlos in 2021. On the other hand he's 5-5 overall vs Zverev, but actually 4-2 since 2023. Of yourse you drew the line after the 23 USO so you could lump him together with Jannik... smh.

 

[neytron]

Does it matter? These guys were always considered perpetual chokers.

It's stupid to equate Medvedev with Zverev in terms of chokes.

Regarding the matches on the list, Zverev beat Sinner at USO before Sinner leveled up. Medvedev is actually equal to Alcaraz and Sinner in terms of level with normal serve.

 

[xFedal]

Good post but I want to see Sinner and Raz fans defend this

Oh come on losing to experienced veteran like Medvedev who leads you in h2h is no fluke.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

I’m confused if the point of this is to highlight that Med and Zed are good or if it’s to point out that they have what it takes but can’t actually win a slam now?While the other two have done so?

Guessing the latter but it’s kind of also saying that Sinner and Alcaraz perhaps aren’t the greatest at the slams against those other 2?

 

[socallefty]

The top 5 players in the world are pretty close in level currently and there is not going to be one guy dominating in the next few Slams. Alcaraz might pull ahead of the others after another 12-18 months, but he has too many up and down days still during tournaments - I would be pleasantly surprised if he proves otherwise as his top level is currently higher than anyone else. Sinner lacks physicality to dominate all the time. Novak is too old (and getting more injuries or falling sick) to win everything. Zverev and Medvedev will win some of these matches, but are a notch behind the rest mentally in big matches.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Oh come on losing to experienced veteran like Medvedev who leads you in h2h is no fluke.

If 28 year old Med is a veteran does that make a 37 year old Djokovic ancient? And a 39 year old Wawrinka a corpse?

 

[xFedal]

Yh Zverev and Medvedev can be very tough opponents at times, sometimes they can lose in straights as well. Hit and Miss is the mantra at work here.

 

[Purestriker]

• Zverev def Sinner in 5 sets USO 23
• Raz def Zverev in 3 sets USO 23
• Med def Raz in 4 sets USO 23
• Zverev def Raz in 4 sets at AO 24
• Sinner def Med in 5 sets at AO 24
• Raz def Zverev in 5 sets at RG 24
• Med def Sinner in 5 sets at Wimbledon 24

In 2 of these wins at AO 24 and RG 24, Zverev and Medvedev led 2-0 and 2-1 and collapsed midway through the match.

Funny how these aren't even the peak 2021-mid 2022 versions of Medvedev and Zverev either and yet it's so easy to put the future ATG mantra on Sinner and Raz, who are stuggling like hell in every single Slam against worse competition than 3 years ago.

I would Tods Z out if your comps. He’s done nothing in majors. Those other two he’s beaten in BO3 have more majors than Z and Meddy. But Meddy has always done well in the majors.

 

[xFedal]

If 28 year old Med is a veteran does that make a 37 year old Djokovic ancient? And a 39 year old Wawrinka a corpse?

Something like that. Can you deny that Medvedev isn't an experienced player? Doesn't he lead Sinner h2h.

 

[helterskelter]

Does it matter? These guys were always considered perpetual chokers.
Doing 5% better than them, while Novak and Nadal are nowhere to be found make Sinner and Raz how good exactly?

No wonder Novak nearly mopped both 2021 and 2023 for a Calendar Slam.

Medvedev isn't a perpetual choker, is he? I think of him as a player of modest talent who ekes every last drop out of his limited talent. He'd probably be a good coach for Zverev or Tsitsipas if he weren't still on the tour!

You can see his limited talent in the hitch in his forehand and even in his inability to toss the ball straight up in the air (it always goes at a slight angle - it actually reminds me of the forehand in some ways). Everything he does is unorthodox.

Zverev is a perpetual choker, for sure. He is also a much more talented player than Medvedev.

 

[NeutralFan]

Medvedev isn't a perpetual choker, is he? I think of him as a player of modest talent who ekes every last drop out of his limited talent. He'd probably be a good coach for Zverev or Tsitsipas if he weren't still on the tour!

You can see his limited talent in the hitch in his forehand and even in his inability to toss the ball straight up in the air (it always goes at a slight angle - it actually reminds me of the forehand in some ways). Everything he does is unorthodox.

Zverev is a perpetual choker, for sure. He is also a much more talented player than Medvedev.

Med is pretty talented and has about everything that's required in modern baseline tennis. A great BH, good FH, good movement, good serve + return . It's Stef who is limited player for modern times

 

[legcramp]

Tiny



Meddy/Sinner




Tank top

 

[mike danny]

I’m confused if the point of this is to highlight that Med and Zed are good or if it’s to point out that they have what it takes but can’t actually win a slam now?While the other two have done so?

Guessing the latter but it’s kind of also saying that Sinner and Alcaraz perhaps aren’t the greatest at the slams against those other 2?

It’s saying that it’s going to take a long time until they start dominating as a duo, if it ever happens. They’ve still managed to surpass the 90’s born though, so these occasional wins by the Next Gen don’t mean too much in the grand scheme of things

 

[socallefty]

Medvedev isn't a perpetual choker, is he? I think of him as a player of modest talent who ekes every last drop out of his limited talent. He'd probably be a good coach for Zverev or Tsitsipas if he weren't still on the tour!

You can see his limited talent in the hitch in his forehand and even in his inability to toss the ball straight up in the air (it always goes at a slight angle - it actually reminds me of the forehand in some ways). Everything he does is unorthodox.

Zverev is a perpetual choker, for sure. He is also a much more talented player than Medvedev.

I think exactly the opposite that he is incredibly talented. It is much more difficult and uncommon to be a top player these days with unorthodox technique as it is almost impossible for even the super-talented pros to be uber-consistent with unorthodox shots. His hand-eye coordination must be off the charts to play at the level he does with the technique he has. Also hitting relatively flatter than everyone else and still winning tournaments like Rome on high-bouncing clay is incredible.

 

[tudwell]

The top 5 players in the world are pretty close in level currently and there is not going to be one guy dominating in the next few Slams. Alcaraz might pull ahead of the others after another 12-18 months, but he has too many up and down days still during tournaments - I would be pleasantly surprised if he proves otherwise as his top level is currently higher than anyone else. Sinner lacks physicality to dominate all the time. Novak is too old (and getting more injuries or falling sick) to win everything. Zverev and Medvedev will win some of these matches, but are a notch behind the rest mentally in big matches.

Yeah I must say I'm loving the parity on tour at the moment. Medvedev's still out there proving he's not an afterthought – stunned Alcaraz at the US Open last year and then Sinner here at Wimby (and almost at the Aussie as well!). Zverev's shown some of the most consistent slam form of his career lately as well to put himself in the conversation (I still think of him as no. 5, though, despite currently being higher than Medvedev in the rankings; I think Daniil is much more likely to win a second slam than Zverev is to win a first).

 

[Third Serve]

I'm all for the Career Inflation Era arguments and I think there is a lot of truth in the OP but I don't think this is an completely fair statistic to list. For one, Zverev and Medvedev have put in showings comparable to the very best they've offered at Slams. That US Open 2023 match between Med and Alcaraz may well have been the best Slam match Med has ever played, or at least up there with USO 2021 F, and his AO 2024 fits right there with 2021 and 2022. So far, it's also been his best Wimbledon to date (or up there with 2023). And this past RG was probably Zverev's best as well.

Maybe they're not completely up to 2021 standards but they're still very much in their primes and have a relative age advantage over Alcaraz at least. And Sinner is still young enough that there's room for improvement for him as well whereas Z and Med will pretty much only go down from here.

At similar ages, Alcaraz and (less so) Sinner have done significantly better than Z and Med all across the board except for the YEC. It's a clear leap.

The second thing is that Sinner drags down Alcaraz here. I'm not yet sold on Sinner being some future ATG but I think Alcaraz is heading there.

 

[helterskelter]

I think exactly the opposite that he is incredibly talented. It is much more difficult and uncommon to be a top player these days with unorthodox technique as it is almost impossible for even the super-talented pros to be uber-consistent with unorthodox shots. His hand-eye coordination must be off the charts to play at the level he does with the technique he has. Also hitting relatively flatter than everyone else and still winning tournaments like Rome on high-bouncing clay is incredible.

You may be right. My thought is that the unorthodoxy of his shots isn’t a clever strategic choice but an adaption to his struggles to perfect a more orthodox technique. Difficult to tell. You are right that him winning Rome was very impressive - I would chalk that up to getting every last drop from limited talent rather than a profusion of talent but either way it was a great result for him.

 

[ChaelAZ]

GS titles on point doh.

 

[InsideOut900]

I'm all for the Career Inflation Era arguments and I think there is a lot of truth in the OP but I don't think this is an completely fair statistic to list. For one, Zverev and Medvedev have put in showings comparable to the very best they've offered at Slams. That US Open 2023 match between Med and Alcaraz may well have been the best Slam match Med has ever played, or at least up there with USO 2021 F, and his AO 2024 fits right there with 2021 and 2022. So far, it's also been his best Wimbledon to date (or up there with 2023). And this past RG was probably Zverev's best as well.

I am inviting people to stop overhyping the young gen if anything.

If they are so much better than Med and Zed, they should do what old 3 did, beat these guys mercilessly.

Age isn't really a valid excuse, Carlos is an early bloomer and Sinner is at peak age. They will eventually pass them for good, but the rest of the field is non-existent, so what is the prize here other than winning a lot of free Slams?

Yeah, maybe USO 23 Semi or AO 24 QF are peak performances, but how often did these guys have it in them to play like that against Old 3? Even when they did, they were shut down, save for USO 21. That's because Sinner and Alcaraz don't instill the same fear in them because their vulnerability can be perceived.

 

[TheAssassin]

It's what I have been saying before. For all the understandable hype of Sinner and Alcaraz and their matches with Djokovic, it's their contests with the NextGen (and whoever younger comes after them) that will matter more for their careers as there will be a lot more of those. And as we have seen so far, Mad Lad and Sascha are good enough to win here and there.

In all of this it is amusing how the Philosopher has become such a waste of space lol...

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Yeah, maybe USO 23 Semi or AO 24 QF are peak performances, but how often did these guys have it in them to play like that against Old 3? Even when they did, they were shut down, save for USO 21. That's because Sinner and Alcaraz don't instill the same fear in them because their vulnerability can be perceived.

can't believe players barely beginning their primes don't have the same aura as players with a dozen slams under their belt

also not sure why we're tossing out Sinner's 4 wins over Medvedev in Bo3 and Alcaraz's 3-1 W/L against Medvedev+Zverev

 

[Sudacafan]

Good post but I want to see Sinner and Raz fans defend this

I can't guarantee you will see Sinneraz fans defending that, but I can troll a little bit both fanbases if you wish.

 

[socallefty]

You may be right. My thought is that the unorthodoxy of his shots isn’t a clever strategic choice but an adaption to his struggles to perfect a more orthodox technique. Difficult to tell. You are right that him winning Rome was very impressive - I would chalk that up to getting every last drop from limited talent rather than a profusion of talent but either way it was a great result for him.

I have a feeling that he probably refused to listen to his coaches to follow textbook methods as a kid and wanted to chart his own path - he has got that vibe going. It probably was the more difficult path, but he has made it work for him all the way to the top.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Something like that. Can you deny that Medvedev isn't an experienced player? Doesn't he lead Sinner h2h.

Does experience make you a veteran? Swiatek has ample experience with 4 slams already and a bunch more titles but I wouldn’t call her a veteran. Same for Med. But it’s all interpretation I was more making a joke that if he’s a veteran than Djokovic is ancient and Wawrinka is a corpse! And then Rohan Bopanna at 44 must be the walking dead!

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Yet alcaraz is going to clean up soon. He will win 3 slams this season. Meddy and goldie can’t stop him. They might stop sinner more but not alcaraz. Carlos is only going to continue to get better and stronger.

 

[FeroBango]

Good post but I want to see Sinner and Raz fans defend this

No way to say for sure that this Zverev, with reduced second serve issues, is definitely worse than his previous versions. This is no 2023 Zverev, for careers aren't always linear. Peaks, valleys, and peaks, ... goes the game.

Medvedev himself is a more varied player today even if the serve is a bit inferior, and certainly his best self on natural surfaces, particularly grass while still remaining elite on hard courts.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Med is pretty talented and has about everything that's required in modern baseline tennis. A great BH, good FH, good movement, good serve + return . It's Stef who is limited player for modern times

Agree. Medvedev is very underrated. He has gotten way better in the forecourt, too. Bringing him forward used to be a good attack but it doesn’t work any more.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Yet alcaraz is going to clean up soon. He will win 3 slams this season. Meddy and goldie can’t stop him. They might stop sinner more but not alcaraz. Carlos is only going to continue to get better and stronger.

Please don't be dickKing69 lol

 

[Subway Tennis]

Please don't be dickKing69 lol

Take it easy on us Sinner fanboys, we’re a bit salty at the moment

I’ve been saying for the last four weeks that Sinner would win Wimbledon without dropping a set.

 

[ibbi]

You have enough sense to realize these may not be peak versions of Medvedev or Zverev (not sure it's the case fo Zverev at all), but not enough to be able to acknowledge the same about Sinner and certainly Alcaraz?

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Please don't be dickKing69 lol

Haha! Ok brother. You right

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Take it easy on us Sinner fanboys, we’re a bit salty at the moment

I’ve been saying for the last four weeks that Sinner would win Wimbledon without dropping a set.

We've also been saying since late 2023 that Medvedev will never beat Sinner again, and after the AO F & Miami SF we tuned it up another notch.
We've also been saying that Sinner would make Alcaraz run like a tiny rabbit on court and absolutely annihilate him, before their IW as well as RG clash.
We had also been saying until April 2024 that Sinner would never lose a match against Tsitsipas.
We've also been comparing 2024 Sinner with 2004 Federer and rating him higher than or as well as 2011/15 Djok.

 

[Subway Tennis]

We've also been saying since late 2023 that Medvedev will never beat Sinner again, and after the AO F & Miami SF we tuned it up another notch.
We've also been saying that Sinner would make Alcaraz run like a tiny rabbit on court and absolutely annihilate him, before their IW as well as RG clash.
We had also been saying until April 2024 that Sinner would never lose a match against Tsitsipas.
We've also been comparing 2024 Sinner with 2004 Federer and rating him higher than or as well as 2011/15 Djok.

I am guilty of a lot of those comments. The Tennis Gods laugh at my pronouncements.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

I am guilty of a lot of those comments. The Tennis Gods laugh at my pronouncements.

Sinfans have been annoying and highly disrespectful for his opponents

 

[Subway Tennis]

Sinfans have been annoying and highly disrespectful for his opponents

Do you think Alcaraz could pull off the Channel Slam? He has the draw from hell but he is carefully and calmly navigating through in a very impressive way.

 

[ND-13]

Alcaraz is a rookie and he is the best that is on tour since Delpo and Wawrinka 2.0

 

[FRV4]

Alcaraz has 3 slams. He is different than the other 3.

 

[Hawaiian grip]

Wanna update the situation on Alcaraz vs Med?

 

[Racquet_smash]

Just like the US Open Medvedev played an incredible match but couldn't keep it up during the next one.

Today his serve was just too bad to hope to win the match. I barely remember free points off it.

 

[Sport]

Alcaraz is a rookie and he is the best that is on tour since Delpo and Wawrinka 2.0

Delpo and Wawrinka wish they were as good as Carlitos. Alcaraz is the best we have had since the BIg 3 emergence.

 

[ND-13]

Delpo and Wawrinka wish they were as good as Carlitos. Alcaraz is the best we have had since the BIg 3 emergence.

What you are saying is an addendum not a correction , though your tone sounds like the latter