Sinners so surprisingly strange serve stats

[Subway Tennis]

Why is that ? Is his backhand that good?

Players will always try to return to backhand because it starts point from neutral. So has sinner reached such a stage that even returning to his backhand starts with him in huge advantage ?

Sinner has an amazingly effective high percentage cross court backhand that he uses very cleverly on his second shot when serving to the ad court. It lands short in the court but is hit with such an angle that it drags the opponent way outside the doubles alley.

An example of him using it on serve would be when the opponent returns to Sinner’s backhand side when Sinner is serving in the ad court. Sinner takes some of the pace off the backhabd but goes aggressive wide hitting a short angled backhand cross court back into the ad court direction. The returner, who is trying to recover to the centre of the baseline after returning has to double back and whatever advantage they had by going to Sinner’s backhand is gone and we are essentially in a neutral rally with Sinner cheating slightly to his backhand corner ready to run onto his forehand and crush it.

He won so many points at AO with that severely angled cross court backhand. It’s a very safe shot for him and stretches the opponent very wide on their backhand side.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sinner has an amazingly effective high percentage cross court backhand that he uses very cleverly on his second shot when serving to the ad court. It lands short in the court but is hit with such an angle that it drags the opponent way outside the doubles alley.

An example of him using it on serve would be when the opponent returns to Sinner’s backhand side when Sinner is serving in the ad court. Sinner takes some of the pace off the backhabd but goes aggressive wide hitting a short angled backhand cross court back into the ad court direction. The returner, who is trying to recover to the centre of the baseline after returning has to double back and whatever advantage they had by going to Sinner’s backhand is gone and we are essentially in a neutral rally with Sinner cheating slightly to his backhand corner ready to run onto his forehand and crush it.

He won so many points at AO with that severely angled cross court backhand. It’s a very safe shot for him and stretches the opponent very wide on their backhand side.

That seems like a good explanation. I would have thought going dtl but going behind is also good.

Sinner is new generation player. They never use slices.

Slice is a bad voice in today's game outright. It's a big statement but it is what it is.

 

[Subway Tennis]

That seems like a good explanation. I would have thought going dtl but going behind is also good.

Sinner is new generation player. They never use slices.

Slice is a bad voice in today's game outright. It's a big statement but it is what it is.

Oh you’re totally right. DTL is the best for sure. But there is just so much extra margin for error going cross court. Sinner can land that damn angled cross court backhand on a $1 coin for 6 hours in a match. This guy is going to win so many majors it’s scary.

I hope the slice doesn’t die. I think that is one area where Sinner could get better.

I’d love him to develop a slice like Musetti has. Musetti’s slice can float and slow the point down if he needs to, or he can knife through it and use it as a skidding approach shot.

 

[Rovesciarete]

Sinner has an amazingly effective high percentage cross court backhand that he uses very cleverly on his second shot when serving to the ad court. It lands short in the court but is hit with such an angle that it drags the opponent way outside the doubles alley.

An example of him using it on serve would be when the opponent returns to Sinner’s backhand side when Sinner is serving in the ad court. Sinner takes some of the pace off the backhabd but goes aggressive wide hitting a short angled backhand cross court back into the ad court direction. The returner, who is trying to recover to the centre of the baseline after returning has to double back and whatever advantage they had by going to Sinner’s backhand is gone and we are essentially in a neutral rally with Sinner cheating slightly to his backhand corner ready to run onto his forehand and crush it.

He won so many points at AO with that severely angled cross court backhand. It’s a very safe shot for him and stretches the opponent very wide on their backhand side.

One of the best observations on this board. Usually only one-handers seem to be able to roll the ball over at those sharp angle with good weight and some regularity - apart from Jannik.

 

[Rovesciarete]

Oh you’re totally right. DTL is the best for sure. But there is just so much extra margin for error going cross court. Sinner can land that damn angled cross court backhand on a $1 coin for 6 hours in a match. This guy is going to win so many majors it’s scary.

I hope the slice doesn’t die. I think that is one area where Sinner could get better.

I’d love him to develop a slice like Musetti has. Musetti’s slice can float and slow the point down if he needs to, or he can knife through it and use it as a skidding approach shot.

For Sinner the backhand slice is right now:

1) A way on fast surfaces to counter a fine incoming one, for example when playing Alcaraz.

2) A mean to scramble a ball back into play and to recover position.

3) A tactical tool to surprise the rare player able to go long backhand cc rallies - Zverev, Medvedev and a fit Djokovic

 

[nolefam_2024]

For Sinner the backhand slice is right now:

1) A way on fast surfaces to counter a fine incoming one, for example when playing Alcaraz.

2) A mean to scramble a ball back into play and to recover position.

3) A tactical tool to surprise the rare player able to go long backhand cc rallies

In regular rally Sinner playing slice is a weakness since his backhand is too strong

Slice is good for players who finish points in 1 stroke on fh or players before 2010s who used to use it to attack the net.

 

[Rovesciarete]

In regular rally Sinner playing slice is a weakness since his backhand is too strong

Slice is good for players who finish points in 1 stroke on fh or players before 2010s who used to use it to attack the net.

For guys like Zverev, Medvedev and Sinner, less so final-form Djokovic, there must be an excellent reason not to drive or a particular one to slice. Indeed just too good of a backhand.

 

[Subway Tennis]

One of the best observations on this board. Usually only one-handers seem to be able to roll the ball over at those sharp angle with good weight and some regularity - apart from Jannik.

He is like a squid the way he wraps that left arm around his body on the BHCC!

@travlerajm observed that Sinner has an unnatural advantage with his limb length and bone structure. I think that might have a lot to do with it?

 

[Rovesciarete]

In regular rally Sinner playing slice is a weakness since his backhand is too strong

Slice is good for players who finish points in 1 stroke on fh or players before 2010s who used to use it to attack the net.

Agreed, a slice must be functional. The backhand is usually the flatter shot and a slice has to be fairly long to avoid a spinny forehand. Overall the drive has become heavier over the years and we have some players with great topspin on the tour.

Berrettini and Musetti both get more value out of the slice on the natural surfaces than on hardcourt. It shields more and can be a good attacking tool, especially against a lot of good guys with flattish balls. Sometimes their (sliced) return sits up for a heavy forehand.

 

[Rovesciarete]

He is like a squid the way he wraps that left arm around his body on the BHCC!

@travlerajm observed that Sinner has an unnatural advantage with his limb length and bone structure. I think that might have a lot to do with it?

As a guy with a particular large and long torso and fairly short but strong legs I do agree strongly*. As I'm just short of 190 I call myself 'big dwarf', in the spirit of Lotr.

His fantastic ball-striking looks like the explosive yet noiseless uncurling of a whip, a very efficient mechanism and suitably silent. Others seem to need that load grunt to release the heavy effort but Sinner strikes again and again with ease.

*still taller than the average atp player

 

[Rovesciarete]

Funny how that weak first server is now the fourth player to win a slam final without conceding a breakpoint. Against the most competent returner among the bunch, which however failed to get within that striking distance.

.... I think it is a mix of a couple of elements:

1) His serve % is obviously weak compared to his fellow pros and more so for a guy of his height. Youth does explain a good deal of the gap....

2) His overall game is stronger then most give him credit for. I have rated him before as a top10 returner as he has frankly overall very strong numbers, even massive when taking his height into account. He was successful despite this impactful problem.

Not too shabby for a take, and by Jannik himself...

5) He himself has stated that his serve will approach his potential only with 22-24 years. His teams has clearly taken an good hard look at the serve stats of many pros as those tend to follow this development. Arguably on of the reasons why the youngsters are having such a hard time to break into the upper echelon.

 

[Rovesciarete]

The guy with a formerly terrible serve once again finishes a year with the highest hold percentage. Not too shabby, farsighted article by Jeff and some nice deduction in this thread...

 

[Kafel69]

The guy with a formerly terrible serve once again finishes a year with the highest hold percentage. Not too shabby, farsighted article by Jeff and some nice deduction in this thread...

from the limited tennis i've watched of sinner these past couple of months, i think they slowed his tempo down just a hair and maybe extended the toss a tad on his first serve. he consistently hit the top of the net on his 1st serve before (his 1st serve % used to meander in the mid 50s for a bit this year), which is normally several of the following things:

1. letting the ball drop too far
2. too low of a toss
3. little too quick to go after the ball (i.e., the ball is still climbing upwards when it gets hit)
4. a smidge too slow/late on the racket going over the ball (i've noticed a big difference when i went from a mid 360s gram (static) racket vs mid 340s one i'm dailying right now)

imho, of course.

 

[Rovesciarete]

from the limited tennis i've watched of sinner these past couple of months, i think they slowed his tempo down just a hair and maybe extended the toss a tad on his first serve. he consistently hit the top of the net on his 1st serve before (his 1st serve % used to meander in the mid 50s for a bit this year), which is normally several of the following things:

1. letting the ball drop too far
2. too low of a toss
3. little too quick to go after the ball (i.e., the ball is still climbing upwards when it gets hit)
4. a smidge too slow/late on the racket going over the ball (i've noticed a big difference when i went from a mid 360s gram (static) racket vs mid 340s one i'm dailying right now)

imho, of course.

Somebody made the point of speed vs. precision in general, but imho the long term evolution of the tradeoffs is more important. For me it is similar to strength training, you want to increase your max and then your reps on a lower level.

In short Sinner was serving very weakly for a guy his size and as late developer scrawny.* Some of it was obviously strength°, some technique, some mental. Jannik has now a much stronger base and build and has more room to adjust his serve to the specific conditions and opponents.


*I was thin as a rail at 19, but was continually building muscular bulk into my late twenties.

°Roger had his broad shoulder and chest which helped him - all other things equal - to serve better than a thinner guy his size.