Sleekest non-poly string to cross with natural gut?

[maxpotapov]

Poly strings have the hardest/smoothest surface that lets natural gut mains slide freely.
Is there any synthetic gut or multifilament string with the coating sleek enough for the gut to slide? I want comfort and power and price of natural/syn gut hybrid, but I'm not ready to sacrifice spin that poly crosses provide.

I am also not sure about durability of nat/syn gut setup, knowing how synthetics like Gosen OGSM can eat through poly mains.

 

[Dreamcastin]

head rip control, but for that price you can get a decent cheap poly, msv, WC, SPPP.

 

[JT_2eighty]

Babolat Nvy is a good one, and Isospeed Pro Classic was decent as well. None will give you quite the performance of poly. Even the slickest ones eventually start to fray and become 'sticky' in some fashion, while poly stays smooth much much longer.

For the best comfort & power (with great longevity too--doesn't get harsh), try WC Mosquito Bite as a cross. Very thin, soft and lively. I've tried a lot of the "soft" polys and this was a clear winner for me in all three categories (comfort, power & longevity).

 

[Up&comer]

The slickest I can remember is the rip feel from intellitour. Then maybe Nvy.

 

[Thepowerofchoice]

Prince Recoil 16g?

 

[fortun8son]

Lightning XX is pretty slick.

 

[Valjean]

BAbolat's N.vy and Addiction...

 

[ricki]

Wilson red alert - great and stiff so you wont have 100% rocket launcher

 

[TimothyO]

Poly strings have the hardest/smoothest surface that lets natural gut mains slide freely.
Is there any synthetic gut or multifilament string with the coating sleek enough for the gut to slide? I want comfort and power and price of natural/syn gut hybrid, but I'm not ready to sacrifice spin that poly crosses provide.

I am also not sure about durability of nat/syn gut setup, knowing how synthetics like Gosen OGSM can eat through poly mains.

There are some slick multis but none compare to a slick poly in performance.

I've tested many gut/multi combos and multis don't perform as well as polys for three key reasons.

1. Most "slick" multis get their slickness from a coating that wears aware pretty quickly. Meanwhile polys get their slickness from their inherent chemical composition which doesn't wear off since they're solid.

2. Being softer and composed of multiple, weaker strands multi crosses tend to dent deeply and trap the mains. Polys can dent but even the ones that do so don't to the same degree as a multi.

3. Being composed of many strands multis fray in a manner similar to natural gut while polys generally don't. These fibers are VERY rough and quickly prevent string movement.

So between an easily wore coating, an overall weaker support structure, and rough surface caused by fraying, multis can't offer the same slick support surface for mains that polys can.

That being said some of the better multis that I tested as a cross with gut include TNT2 Rx 17 and Xcel Premium 17. But in the end I could find nothing that offered the same performance as even the softest poly (see my thread "Condemed to Gut/Poly Hell").

My recommendation: find a super soft co-poly that you enjoy. Many new co-polys are designed specidically to be slick and rival some multis in comfort. I'm currently testing Gamma Zo Dart which is a soft co-poly through which are run several very thin strands of stiffer polys. The results appears to be multi-like comfort, super slick performance, and control like a stiff poly. Only just started with it, results TBD, but initial impression is posittive.

One excellent soft co-poly which seems to remains comfortable forever is MSV CoFocus. It seems to become more lively as it dies too. Control is not as good as a stiffer multi but it's better than a multi anyway and remains super slick and resists denting extremely well. The ONLY reason I don't use it currently is that I prefer something with less power. Other than that it's an excellent go-to poly as a cross with gut.

 

[Hotrocks]

Babolat Nvy is a good one, and Isospeed Pro Classic was decent as well. None will give you quite the performance of poly. Even the slickest ones eventually start to fray and become 'sticky' in some fashion, while poly stays smooth much much longer.

For the best comfort & power (with great longevity too--doesn't get harsh), try WC Mosquito Bite as a cross. Very thin, soft and lively. I've tried a lot of the "soft" polys and this was a clear winner for me in all three categories (comfort, power & longevity).

+2 on Mosquito Bite!

 

[corners]

Timothy outlined the reasons why slippery nylon strings don't work as well as polys. For those reasons I would stay away from multi crosses and focus on nylon and zyex monofilaments.

Here are some stiffness / inter-string friction numbers from TW University:

Gosen Powermaster II (rectangular nylon monofilament (syngut)): 179 / 0.08
Ashaway Zyex MonoGut 16 (100% Zyex monofilament): 118 / 0.088
Prince Recoil 16 (syngut core with PTFE (Teflon) wrap): 200 / 0.098
Gosen OG Sheep Micro 18 (syngut in a very flexible thin gauge): 178 / 0.114

The PTFE wrap of Recoil is harder and more durable than slippery coatings on strings like Bab N.Vy. I found it to perform quite similar to gut/copoly as a cross with gut mains. The inter-string friction of gut/Recoil is 0.079 and the stringbed stiffness about 145.

Gut with Gosen Micro 18 crosses works pretty well and is very comfortable. But it will notch and lock up after a while.

I would like to try Gosen Powermaster II, which is OG Micro in a rectangular cross section that is about 1 mm thick. Because of this shape, the angle of the weave is less, which should make it easier for the gut mains to slide and snap back. Also, because the string has no sharp edge or ridge (flat vs. circular), it might not cut into the gut and notch it as quickly. But I haven't tried this combo.

What I'm really interested in is gut mains paired with Ashaway 100% Zyex Monogut. You can see from the numbers that this string is very slippery (zyex is added to many copolymer strings to increases slickness) and less stiff than any nylon string on the market. It's also a monofilament, so there is no issue with strands getting torn up and roughening the surface like with multis (and with Ashaway's Dynamite Zyex strings, which have nylon outer braids that shred and lock the stringbed very quickly). This string relies on the inherent low-friction of the zyex material and not a coating for its slickness, so should remain slippery for the life of the string. But it may not have a hard enough surface to prevent the gut mains digging into the crosses and locking up the snapback mechanism. I haven't had time to try this but it's first on my list.

For comparison, here are the stiffness / inter-string friction numbers for some soft and slippery 3rd gen copolys (the softest copolys are the 18 gauge varieties, assuming they are strung at the same tension as a thicker gauge):

Isospeed Pulse 16: 193 / 0.07
Gosen Polylon Polybreak 18: 193 / 0.071
Gosen Polymaster II (also rectangular and 1mm thick): 207 / 0.074
MSV Co-Focus 16L: 213 / 0.089
Estimate for Co-Focus 18: 195 / 0.089

These five strings are only about 15% stiffer than Gosen Micro 18, which is a very flexible and comfortable syngut, so unless you have a super-tender arm, Timothy is probably right about gut/copoly being a better option than gut/slippery nylon.

And as a reference, gut / Alu Rough has inter-string friction of 0.088 but Alu Rough is much stiffer than the above thin 3rd gen copolys, with stiffness of 248. So a thin gauge soft copoly is only 15% stiffer than a thin gauge syngut, but Alu Rough is 25% stiffer than a thin 3rd gen copoly.

But the reason I think 100% Zyex Monogut might be so cool is that a gut/Zyex Monogut stringbed would have stiffness of about 110, while gut/thin copoly combos are around 145, and gut/Alu Rough about 170.


And if you find a good gut/poly alternative hybrid, please post a review in this thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=356152

Stiffness / Inter-string friction data here: http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COFreporter.php

 

[maxpotapov]

Timothy, Corners, thanks lot for comprehensive research! ^

It sounds like I need to order following strings to experiment with natural gut mains:

MSV CoFocus 1.18 (don't see it on sale at TW)
Prince Recoil (is no longer on sale?)
Ashaway MonoGut ZX 16 String
Gosen Powermaster II 16 String
Gamma Zo Dart 17
Did I miss anything?

Also, I realized Wilson Champions Choice is not worthwhile to try out because of stiffer mains that do not offer much of an improvement in terms of lesser friction compared to other options discussed above. Long term playability is a different subject though, but I think Alu Rough is not a champion in this department either.

 

[pvaudio]

Let me just say that OGSM 16 and 17 are some of the best syn guts out there. OGSM 18 is absolutely terrible.

 

[TimothyO]

Timothy, Corners, thanks lot for comprehensive research! ^

It sounds like I need to order following strings to experiment with natural gut mains:

MSV CoFocus 1.18 (don't see it on sale at TW)
Prince Recoil (is no longer on sale?)
Ashaway MonoGut ZX 16 String
Gosen Powermaster II 16 String
Gamma Zo Dart 17
Did I miss anything?

Also, I realized Wilson Champions Choice is not worthwhile to try out because of stiffer mains that do not offer much of an improvement in terms of lesser friction compared to other options discussed above. Long term playability is a different subject though, but I think Alu Rough is not a champion in this department either.

One caution on MSV CoFocus 1.18. I found it useful in small, dense string beds with low power frames (eg PSLGT which is soft and 18x20/95"). In open pattern, larger frames I found it too powerful.

While mains determine 60-80% of your playability crosses can have a significant impact. I once tried Black Ice 18 as a cross and had one of the worst hitting sessions ever! I couldn't keep anything in, was spraying balls, a real nightmare. And that was with a 4D 200 which is 95" and 18x20!

On the other hand, I'm currently experimenting with VS Touch and 4G 16g and having a wonderful time with my 200 Tours. I've never hit with such confidence previously. PHT 16g also works well.

So frame size, patter, and stiffness are all crucial considerations when choosing a cross.

 

[maxpotapov]

One caution on MSV CoFocus 1.18. I found it useful in small, dense string beds with low power frames (eg PSLGT which is soft and 18x20/95"). In open pattern, larger frames I found it too powerful.

While mains determine 60-80% of your playability crosses can have a significant impact. I once tried Black Ice 18 as a cross and had one of the worst hitting sessions ever! I couldn't keep anything in, was spraying balls, a real nightmare. And that was with a 4D 200 which is 95" and 18x20!

On the other hand, I'm currently experimenting with VS Touch and 4G 16g and having a wonderful time with my 200 Tours. I've never hit with such confidence previously. PHT 16g also works well.

So frame size, patter, and stiffness are all crucial considerations when choosing a cross.

I'm a Prestige Mid guy, so it's exactly why I need more sliding from the crosses and would not mind more power.
Please let us know how 4G retains elasticity over lifetime of natural gut mains. I mean is it worth 16$ a set