Slice serve sitting up too much

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
I've been working hard on my kick, but tried out my flat/slice again and my slice is sitting up too much when I go out wide on the deuce side. What adjustments can I make to get it to stay low?
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
maybe you're adding too much spin? and not enough pace, to allow the ball to skid?
ie. when hitting a bh slice, there's an ideal ratio of pace to spin, such that the ball skids on ground contact... if too much spin (such that the spin overcomes the forward velocity), it stops and sits up. (this might be what you want, if say you're hitting a dropper - to prevent the ball from going forward)...
 

tennis4me

Hall of Fame
Many players who have good skidding slice serves create the slice rotation by pronating, instead of by just carving around the ball without pronation. It's a subtle difference that make a big impact on the results. When done correctly, the rotation created by pronation will impart slice to the ball and apply a healthy amount of pace that prevents the ball from sitting up.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Many players who have good skidding slice serves create the slice rotation by pronating, instead of by just carving around the ball without pronation. It's a subtle difference that make a big impact on the results. When done correctly, the rotation created by pronation will impart slice to the ball and apply a healthy amount of pace that prevents the ball from sitting up.

Do you have any details, high speed videos, publications, etc that show how 'pronation' would cause more side spin component on the ball?

For what I have seen, I have interpreted spins by string directions on the ball only without considering the additional racket head rotation from ISR.
 

tennis4me

Hall of Fame
Do you have any details, high speed videos, publications, etc that show how 'pronation' would cause more side spin on the ball?

For what I have seen, I have interpreted spins by string directions on the ball only without considering the additional racket rotation from ISR.
Sorry don't have a video. My comment was a result of being on the receiving side of such serve (and noticing the big difference in pace on the slice serves) and a few discussions, including a recent one with a high level Open player. In all cases the players I spoke to emphasized how typical rec players slice their serves without pronation.

I think the resulting 'slice' is 'faster' because there's a right proportion of rotation (the 'slice') and forward force (the 'pace'), just like what @nytennisaddict said.
 
I definitely hit my slice with pronation. Use a really extreme backhand grip so the racket doesn't quite close but keeps leading with the thumb side edge. It gets a little bit of top too but mostly slice and is very biting.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
I've been working hard on my kick, but tried out my flat/slice again and my slice is sitting up too much when I go out wide on the deuce side. What adjustments can I make to get it to stay low?

Have you watched a video of your serve to see whether you're hitting a supination slice or a pronation slice?

IME, supination can "sit up", whereas pronation tends to have more power/skid on the slice and penetrates through the service box more...
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Have you watched a video of your serve to see whether you're hitting a supination slice or a pronation slice?

IME, supination can "sit up", whereas pronation tends to have more power/skid on the slice and penetrates through the service box more...

I have no idea about supination vs. pronation on my serve. I toss it up slightly to the right and try to cut it to get the slice. A few months ago I could it it out wide on the deuce side pretty well and keep in low. The other night it was a sitting duck and my opponent just crushed it with his forehand.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
I have no idea about supination vs. pronation on my serve. I toss it up slightly to the right and try to cut it to get the slice. A few months ago I could it it out wide on the deuce side pretty well and keep in low. The other night it was a sitting duck and my opponent just crushed it with his forehand.

Same tennis court as normal? Some courts are "skiddier" than others...
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Same tennis court as normal? Some courts are "skiddier" than others...

No, this was the first time I'd tried to hit a slice serve on this court. It had been a while since I'd hit a slice serve though. I don't know if I lost something with it.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
No, this was the first time I'd tried to hit a slice serve on this court. It had been a while since I'd hit a slice serve though. I don't know if I lost something with it.

Possible that it's the different court.

Some courts cause balls to sit up more than others. Other courts balls skid like crazy!

I use my slice serve more on skiddier courts and my kick serve more on grippier courts...
 

Powderwombat

Semi-Pro
Probably hitting too much the side of the ball and not enough behind it. i.e. add more pace and less spin. There's a balance you need, if you hit too much spin it won't penetrate the court fast enough to be effective.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Because it's the correction for his issue, not a tutorial on how to hit a slice serve.

J
Oh ok. So 3 oclock? I watched a video about slice serve the other day by Simon of top tennis training. He was saying hit 1-2 oclock as 3 oclock will cause very spinny but weak serve.
 

TnsGuru

Professional
_40782066_ts_serve_anim.gif
(Kick)
_40782342_slice.gif
(Slice) If you compare the two serves,the mechanics are a little bit different. What helps me on the slice is to reach up to full extension and brush the outer edge while on the kick I do not fully extend during contact by letting the ball fall a little bit to enable me to hit up on the ball. (Both serves require pronation)

If you notice there is a distinct ball toss location. Hopefully you can learn to hit different serves with the same toss so you don't telegraph your intentions. *Tip to remember-Fully extend (slice) let it drop to hit up (kick).
 
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kramer woodie

Professional
I've been working hard on my kick, but tried out my flat/slice again and my slice is sitting up too much when I go out wide on the deuce side. What adjustments can I make to get it to stay low?

EddieBrock

Like tennis4me said, hit the slice with pronation. There is a reason. One, most rec players hit slice by carving around the ball. The ball
not only travels in a flat plane, but also is slow. To hit an effective slice serve you must use pronation. If you use pronation you not only
get side spin to create slice, you also get velocity like a first flat serve. Therefore, the velocity causes the ball to stay low and the side
spin causes the ball to side off the court. If you are right-handed make contact with the ball to the righthand side of the ball as you pronate.

Aloha
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
EddieBrock

Like tennis4me said, hit the slice with pronation. There is a reason. One, most rec players hit slice by carving around the ball. The ball
not only travels in a flat plane, but also is slow. To hit an effective slice serve you must use pronation. If you use pronation you not only
get side spin to create slice, you also get velocity like a first flat serve. Therefore, the velocity causes the ball to stay low and the side
spin causes the ball to side off the court. If you are right-handed make contact with the ball to the righthand side of the ball as you pronate.

Aloha

I've taken a lot of tennis lessons over the years and no one has ever taught me how to hit with pronation and not by carving around the ball. My whole life playing tennis when I go to hit a slice I toss right and into the court and try to carve around. I'm also using my legs/core rotation to push up into the ball. I don't really know how to pronate my arm or whatever in order to generate slice. Is it something you can learn in one practice session or would it require a complete rebuild of my motion?
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
I've taken a lot of tennis lessons over the years and no one has ever taught me how to hit with pronation and not by carving around the ball. My whole life playing tennis when I go to hit a slice I toss right and into the court and try to carve around. I'm also using my legs/core rotation to push up into the ball. I don't really know how to pronate my arm or whatever in order to generate slice. Is it something you can learn in one practice session or would it require a complete rebuild of my motion?

Do you know if you pronate on your non-slice 1st serve, or do you use waiter's tray?

If you normally pronate, then a pronated slice (probably) wouldn't be that hard to learn, as the motion is not that different...
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Do you know if you pronate on your non-slice 1st serve, or do you use waiter's tray?

If you normally pronate, then a pronated slice (probably) wouldn't be that hard to learn, as the motion is not that different...

On my non-slice 1st serve I do pronate, but it makes sense for me because I'm hitting it square on. I can't imagine trying to get slice while pronating. How do you cut the ball while twisting your hand like that? I found this video, but still don't get it.

 

dman72

Hall of Fame
On my non-slice 1st serve I do pronate, but it makes sense for me because I'm hitting it square on. I can't imagine trying to get slice while pronating. How do you cut the ball while twisting your hand like that? I found this video, but still don't get it.

His body is turning. Hes' really hitting the back of the ball not the side, so while his arm is pronating and slicing the ball from the back, his entire body/shoulder etc is turning towards the court, which makes the ball move forward with pace. If you look at a Sampras slice, it's the same thing. He's not chopping the far outside of the ball, his raquet is hitting more the back of it. Also look up "Raonic slice serve" on the tube. He smokes djokovic with one....he's hitting the ball as much on the back as the side, but the pronation is out to the right as opposed to forward.

I've been able to hit slice like this in practice but in matches it degenerates into hacking the side of the ball. It's not intuitive. You think, slice, I'm going to hack at the side of the ball. That's not really what a pro slice is.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
On my non-slice 1st serve I do pronate, but it makes sense for me because I'm hitting it square on. I can't imagine trying to get slice while pronating. How do you cut the ball while twisting your hand like that? I found this video, but still don't get it.

To me, it's essentially the same motion except at contact, you meet the ball with an angled racket face instead of flat.
 

kramer woodie

Professional
I've taken a lot of tennis lessons over the years and no one has ever taught me how to hit with pronation and not by carving around the ball. My whole life playing tennis when I go to hit a slice I toss right and into the court and try to carve around. I'm also using my legs/core rotation to push up into the ball. I don't really know how to pronate my arm or whatever in order to generate slice. Is it something you can learn in one practice session or would it require a complete rebuild of my motion?

EddieBrock

Someone plus other people on this site have taught you to pronate on the slice serve. You have been told to make contact slightly off center. if right handed, at 3 o'clock of the face of the ball. Others have said make contact with the racquet face more edge on then pronate.

I really don't understand your difficulty with the instructions. Other than you are comfortable carving around the outside edge of the ball
using a supine motion like a pitcher throwing a curve. I run into this being comfortable with using incorrect technique all the time. I have
learned to just walk away. It is a waste of time, energy, and breath to try to help someone who refuses to follow instruction. Maybe once
you become so frustrated with your slice moving slow and setting up, you will listen and diligently practice hitting a slice serve the correct
way, like a Pro.

Until then, good luck. I really don't care what lessons you have had, nor do I care what no one bothered to teach you. You ask for help and
you got it. Now go try to learn the motion or get instruction from a teacher who teaches how to hit a slice correctly.

Aloha
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
EddieBrock

Someone plus other people on this site have taught you to pronate on the slice serve. You have been told to make contact slightly off center. if right handed, at 3 o'clock of the face of the ball. Others have said make contact with the racquet face more edge on then pronate.

I really don't understand your difficulty with the instructions. Other than you are comfortable carving around the outside edge of the ball
using a supine motion like a pitcher throwing a curve. I run into this being comfortable with using incorrect technique all the time. I have
learned to just walk away. It is a waste of time, energy, and breath to try to help someone who refuses to follow instruction. Maybe once
you become so frustrated with your slice moving slow and setting up, you will listen and diligently practice hitting a slice serve the correct
way, like a Pro.

Until then, good luck. I really don't care what lessons you have had, nor do I care what no one bothered to teach you. You ask for help and
you got it. Now go try to learn the motion or get instruction from a teacher who teaches how to hit a slice correctly.

Aloha

Tough love on court 4!

J
 

kramer woodie

Professional
Tough love on court 4!


JO11yroger

We stopped checking for monsters under our beds when we realized monsters where a figment of Hollywoods imagination and not real.
The mind can be a beautiful thing if humanity learns to use it. However, too many exult imaginations and reasoning.

Plus, tough love is sometimes the only way to get through to people. I hope the 12 year old in Paris you mouthed off to a bus driver and
then got slapped for his dis-respect, learns to not show dis-respect to other bus drivers since he has been taught him a valuable lesson.

Don't run out into the street in front of a bus. The next time the driver may not stop in time and your smart-ass may end up like a squashed
bug on a windshield except under the buses wheels.

Aloha
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I've taken a lot of tennis lessons over the years and no one has ever taught me how to hit with pronation and not by carving around the ball. My whole life playing tennis when I go to hit a slice I toss right and into the court and try to carve around. I'm also using my legs/core rotation to push up into the ball. I don't really know how to pronate my arm or whatever in order to generate slice. Is it something you can learn in one practice session or would it require a complete rebuild of my motion?
you could probalby just experiment yourself...
hold the racquet at the throat, experiement with different contact points...
try carving around, or pronating through contact (with the different contact points)
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
Now I'm confused. I love Daily Tennis Lesson.

But unless I am not understanding he s saying to snap the wrist down

But then Ian from essential tennis is saying don't do this

 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
EddieBrock

Someone plus other people on this site have taught you to pronate on the slice serve. You have been told to make contact slightly off center. if right handed, at 3 o'clock of the face of the ball. Others have said make contact with the racquet face more edge on then pronate.

I really don't understand your difficulty with the instructions. Other than you are comfortable carving around the outside edge of the ball
using a supine motion like a pitcher throwing a curve. I run into this being comfortable with using incorrect technique all the time. I have
learned to just walk away. It is a waste of time, energy, and breath to try to help someone who refuses to follow instruction. Maybe once
you become so frustrated with your slice moving slow and setting up, you will listen and diligently practice hitting a slice serve the correct
way, like a Pro.

Until then, good luck. I really don't care what lessons you have had, nor do I care what no one bothered to teach you. You ask for help and
you got it. Now go try to learn the motion or get instruction from a teacher who teaches how to hit a slice correctly.

Aloha

Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with other people that you're using as a basis to attack me.

When did I say I wanted to continue using the technique I have now? I'm a bit frustrated that I've followed instruction as best I can since I was a little kid and apparently I've been given wrong instruction, like with the slice serve. No one ever said "hit a slice like this now, but when you get older/better there's another way to hit it that works better and is more advanced". I've talked to multiple coaches over the years and they all say to slice by carving.

Are you really confused that some counter intuitive instruction from the internet that contradicts decades of instruction might take me more than a day to learn? I wish there was a video of someone showing from the server's POV. It just seems strange to swing right and finish almost like for a kick serve with the wrist dangling down when you're trying to put slice on the ball so it will swing right to left. On Monday I'm going to play and try it out on the court, but just in my kitchen trying with a low toss it still doesn't feel right.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
OP it must be something else. I carve and I get plenty of speed. I'm in Australia so I don't know what level I'm playing on your guys scale. But the guys I play have all Court game all kinds of spin and big serves so I'm assuming its 4 - 4.5

To stop it sitting up I throw the ball lower and more in front and step through more.

The other thing you could do is actually make that a strength. The third variation of my slice serve is like that. I find some of these guys are amazingly good at counterpunching off pace. I'm getting back shoelace level balls in the corner almost every time.

So I go into slow mo mode. I throw the ball up very high and I slowly carve around it and try and drop a big loopy serve into a corner. Because it's slower and has more time to spin you can actually aim outside the tea or the tram line and the spin will bring it back in.

I win just as many points with those loopy serves as I do with the heaters.

Everyone says I have a good serve and it's hard to read. Unfortunately sometimes I get lazy with it and then it becomes very mediocre but that's a different problem.

So there you go two extra things you could work on without having to re-engineer your motion.

.
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
That could be. Why do you suspect that?

I take it you’re right handed?

Assuming that is the case going for a wide slice in the deuce court, your toss may be drifting further in an effort to get the ball in...resulting in a slice that will sit up higher (closer to a topspin serve) and I’ll wager than it has less speed and pace too.
 

Bobs tennis

Semi-Pro
And toss out in front...which I suspect may be the OP’s problem
As for myself I think this could really help. Somewhere I got the impression I should toss more out to side and stay more sideways to get better slice. These vids seem to toss almost 12:eek:'clock but meet ball at 3. Sometimes things can be said over and over but then said differently and they click
 
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