Slow Motion Video

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#1
Here is a short clip of some ball machine hitting in slow motion. I posted some practice video a week ago and I received some good tips. Some pointed out that I am jerking my head up early to watch where the ball goes and the video clearly shows that's true. Also the lack of bending at the knees was pointed out which again is true. Plus the lazy sloppy footwork which is definitely on display.

Some said that I wait until the ball bounces before I finish my take back, I think I try to time my swing so it stays in a steady rhythm. But I might be a little late so I end up having to swing abruptly. I agree with these flaws that were pointed out.

Limpinhitter says that my shots are all arm, now I definitely arm the ball some no doubt. But it looks like in the video I get some shoulder turn and my weight goes forward into the shot. So I'm not sure my shots are all arm but I'm not sure. The other point he made which could be true is that I need to rotate my hips so that my hips are facing the target before contact. It looks to me like my hips are facing the target right at contact not before as he is suggesting.

So here are a few shots in slow motion. Am I missing out on a lot of power because I'm not rotating my hips early as Limpin suggests? Which he may very well be right and if so I need to go back to the drawing board.

 
#3
My opinion is you need to be more balanced and engage legs more.
You have no balance in ur forehand neutral stance shot, you need to be in balance throughout the shot, once you put ur weight on ur front foot you rotate around excesively and lift ur back foot and ur whole body rotates around ur front leg without any balance at all, if someone would push u just a tiny bit ud fall over completely.
2nd thing is, ur not using much legs to start ur swing, infact on some shots it seems almost like the legs are completely disconected, kind of like:

*weight on back foot* -> *weight on front foot* -> *rotate hips* -> upper body rotation etc...

When it should be:

*weight on back foot* -> *push with back foot off the ground* -> *Hips start rotating* + *weight going to front foot* -> etc...
 
#4
Your rotation should be hips than shoulder than backswing with palm down. You want to sit and lift with legs as you unload, hps, then shoulder than arm. I would also lay my wrist back to ensure your palm and racket face are pointing exactly where you want the ball to go. Making sure you lead with the top edge:)
 
#5
Let me address the "too much arm" thing... it's become a pet peeve of mind. (see previous post https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lbow-hand-move-in-sync-prove-me-wrong.587454/)

I really think we need a definition of "too much arm". To me, it means "you are hitting with your arm moving forward from the shoulder joint without accompanied shoulder movement". In particular, at the start of the stroke, because good strokes often end with the shoulder turn stopping/pausing ... and then the arm continuing forward from the shoulder joint. (watch any slow motion Fed FH video).

Edit: I think the only "too much arm" players are park players who keep their chest pointing at their opponent for their entire stroke.

I think my buddy @Limpinhitter is defining "too much arm" as "not of enough k-chainy stuff". You need to pin him down :D and make him define what he means. Because if he means "you have no shoulder turn ... and your hand doesn't move forward with your shoulder turn" ... he needs to back off the drinking :p ... unless he needs to drink for other reasons (who doesn't these days?)

We both need the instructors ... but until they make an appearance, I have some TLM pics (of course):

BH: (make them explain how it's possible to hit TOO MUCH ARM from the backswing in PIC #1):



FH: (make them explain how it's possible to hit TOO MUCH ARM from the backswing in PIC #1):



With the red lines, I'm trying to highlight your hand is moving wtih your shoulder into the shot. IMO ... you are not even close to hitting too much arm ... you are hitting with your shoulder (shoulder turn) as you should be.

If Limpin ... or others ... are defining that as k-chaining coiling or timing ... let them drill down on that and explain.

I think your BH coil (pic #1) looks great ... good to go. If someone can add an improvement I would like to hear it also, because no doubt I could improve mine here also.

I have a harder time gauging "enough coil" on FHs where you step onto the front foot. On open stance FHs... you pretty much need the full coil as part of the prep, and it's easy to check by video and snapshot to see how you did. I tried to grab FH pic #1 at your max coil (hip + shoulders). We need @SinjinCooper here ... you tried his best to educated me on this recently. Check his post here (also the thread) ... good stuff ... Elvis and nipples.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/open-or-closed-stance.601710/#post-11705799
 
Last edited:

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#7
Let me address the "too much arm" thing... it's become a pet peeve of mind. (see previous post https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lbow-hand-move-in-sync-prove-me-wrong.587454/)

I really think we need a definition of "too much arm". To me, it means "you are hitting with your arm moving forward from the shoulder joint without accompanied shoulder movement". In particular, at the start of the stroke, because good strokes often end with the shoulder turn stopping/pausing ... and then the arm continuing forward from the shoulder joint. (watch any slow motion Fed FH video).

Edit: I think the only "too much arm" players are park players who keep their chest poiting their opponent for their entire stroke.

I think my buddy @Limpinhitter is defining "too much arm" as "not of enough k-chainy stuff". You need to pin him down :D and make him define what he means. Because if he means "you have no shoulder turn ... and your hand doesn't move forward with your shoulder turn" ... he needs to back off the drinking :p ... unless he needs to drink for other reasons (who doesn't these days?)

We both need the instructors ... but until they make an appearance, I have some TLM pics (of course):

BH: (make them explain how it's possible to hit TOO MUCH ARM from the backswing in PIC #1):



FH: (make them explain how it's possible to hit TOO MUCH ARM from the backswing in PIC #1):



With the red lines, I'm trying to highlight your hand is moving wtih your shoulder into the shot. IMO ... you are not even close to hitting too much arm ... you are hitting with your shoulder (shoulder turn) as you should be.

If Limpin ... or others ... are defining that as k-chaining coiling or timing ... let them drill down on that and explain.

I think your BH coil (pic #1) looks great ... good to go. If someone can add an improvement I would like to hear it also, because no doubt I could improve mine here also.

I have a harder time gauging "enough coil" on FHs where you step onto the front foot. On open stance FHs... you pretty much need the full coil as part of the prep, and it's easy to check by video and snapshot to see how you did. I tried to grab FH pic #1 at your max coil (hip + shoulders). We need @SinjinCooper here ... you tried his best to educated me on this recently. Check his post here (also the thread) ... good stuff ... Elvis and nipples.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/open-or-closed-stance.601710/#post-11705799

Wow byebye you are good at a detailed analysis. I have been thinking a lot of the exact same points that you make above. To me it's clear that I get some shoulder turn and my body weight goes forward into the shot. Not that I can't do a lot better because I surely can. But I don't get when Limpin says that my shots are all arm I'm not seeing that.

Now as far as some of the comments above about not using the kinetic chain in proper order or not involving legs enough that I totally agree with. I know I'm missing out on some free power because of those flaws. Maybe I'm to stiff and need to work on flexibility more because my rotation seems to be shoulder and body together instead of hips then shoulder following.

To get the kinetic chain going correctly will take some major work for me, I'm not sure I can ever do it properly. But maybe I can at least get part of it going to get some benefits.
 
#8
Let me address the "too much arm" thing... it's become a pet peeve of mind. (see previous post https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lbow-hand-move-in-sync-prove-me-wrong.587454/)

I really think we need a definition of "too much arm". To me, it means "you are hitting with your arm moving forward from the shoulder joint without accompanied shoulder movement". In particular, at the start of the stroke, because good strokes often end with the shoulder turn stopping/pausing ... and then the arm continuing forward from the shoulder joint. (watch any slow motion Fed FH video).

Edit: I think the only "too much arm" players are park players who keep their chest poiting their opponent for their entire stroke.

I think my buddy @Limpinhitter is defining "too much arm" as "not of enough k-chainy stuff". You need to pin him down :D and make him define what he means. Because if he means "you have no shoulder turn ... and your hand doesn't move forward with your shoulder turn" ... he needs to back off the drinking :p ... unless he needs to drink for other reasons (who doesn't these days?)

We both need the instructors ... but until they make an appearance, I have some TLM pics (of course):

BH: (make them explain how it's possible to hit TOO MUCH ARM from the backswing in PIC #1):



FH: (make them explain how it's possible to hit TOO MUCH ARM from the backswing in PIC #1):



With the red lines, I'm trying to highlight your hand is moving wtih your shoulder into the shot. IMO ... you are not even close to hitting too much arm ... you are hitting with your shoulder (shoulder turn) as you should be.

If Limpin ... or others ... are defining that as k-chaining coiling or timing ... let them drill down on that and explain.

I think your BH coil (pic #1) looks great ... good to go. If someone can add an improvement I would like to hear it also, because no doubt I could improve mine here also.

I have a harder time gauging "enough coil" on FHs where you step onto the front foot. On open stance FHs... you pretty much need the full coil as part of the prep, and it's easy to check by video and snapshot to see how you did. I tried to grab FH pic #1 at your max coil (hip + shoulders). We need @SinjinCooper here ... you tried his best to educated me on this recently. Check his post here (also the thread) ... good stuff ... Elvis and nipples.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/open-or-closed-stance.601710/#post-11705799
You sure are a stubborn old goat. My fondness for vodka martinis and anything with tequila in it aside, you misunderstand what an arm swing is, and you are misinterpreting what you see in these stills. Nice work capturing those images, though. I don't know how to do that.

In the backhand stills, there is virtually no upper body involvement at all. His legs and hips are stationary, and his shoulders follow his swing path rather than lead it. Further, it is impossible to hinge from the shoulder(s) with two hands on the racquet. If you had more stills, you would see that his swing is generated by straightening and then bending his elbows. If he was employing good UBR and the kinetic chain, his hips would be facing (or close to facing), the target before contact, and his left knee would be collapsed inward like a left handed golf swing.

On the forehand stills, he has virtually the same issues. Although he has some hip and shoulder rotation, they are following, not leading the swing path, and therefore, cannot generate a kinetic chain and assist him in generating additional racquet head speed.

Wow byebye you are good at a detailed analysis. . . .
Not if you mean analyzing a tennis stroke. :p
 
#10
You sure are a stubborn old goat. My fondness for vodka martinis and anything with tequila in it aside, you misunderstand what an arm swing is, and you are misinterpreting what you see in these stills. Nice work capturing those images, though. I don't know how to do that.

In the backhand stills, there is virtually no upper body involvement at all. His legs and hips are stationary, and his shoulders follow his swing path rather than lead it. Further, it is impossible to hinge from the shoulder(s) with two hands on the racquet. If you had more stills, you would see that his swing is generated by straightening and then bending his elbows. If he was employing good UBR and the kinetic chain, his hips would be facing (or close to facing), the target before contact, and his left knee would be collapsed inward like a left handed golf swing.

On the forehand stills, he has virtually the same issues. Although he has some hip and shoulder rotation, they are following, not leading the swing path, and therefore, cannot generate a kinetic chain and assist him in generating additional racquet head speed.



Not if you mean analyzing a tennis stroke. :p
It takes a goat to know one ... we should drink together and then come make some posts. :p

Look you limpin Goat ... let's just solve the following before we go any further.

' you misunderstand what an arm swing is, and you are misinterpreting what you see in these stills."

This is the problem with debating tennis strokes ... there really is no set definition on all the terms. You always say there is ... but you are just looking at the definitions in your head... which has to be a scary place. Let's agree (LOL) on the following before further discussion:

!) If your shoulders turn the arm/s back, and the hand travels with your shoulder turn into contact (or at least the initial start of the swing forward), that is a SHOULDER swing and not a ARM swing.
2) you can have a shoulder swing ... you could still possibly be lacking on the k-chain thingy ... "not enough of something" , "wrong timing", missing k-components ... WHATEVER.
3) if you have a shoulder swing ... there is NO SUCH THING as "ARM LAG" ... just "RACQUET LAG"... the upper arm travels with the shoulders.

JMO ... but I think you could do your K-CHAIN-THINGY education better if you avoided the term "arming" with a stroke like TLM's. He has a shoulder swing ... it's obvious. His has quality shoulder turn (possibly needs more nipple-to-hip tension on his FH ... waiting for @SinjinCooper on that one). Shoulders don't lead the arm ... they go together. You expertise here ... IMO ... is from the ground up prior to his shoulder swing.

I'm addressing the rest of your STUFF in a second post. Maybe by the time I finish *****-slapping your theories, you will have agreed with my wisdom in this post.
 
#11
You sure are a stubborn old goat. My fondness for vodka martinis and anything with tequila in it aside, you misunderstand what an arm swing is, and you are misinterpreting what you see in these stills. Nice work capturing those images, though. I don't know how to do that.

In the backhand stills, there is virtually no upper body involvement at all. His legs and hips are stationary, and his shoulders follow his swing path rather than lead it. Further, it is impossible to hinge from the shoulder(s) with two hands on the racquet. If you had more stills, you would see that his swing is generated by straightening and then bending his elbows. If he was employing good UBR and the kinetic chain, his hips would be facing (or close to facing), the target before contact, and his left knee would be collapsed inward like a left handed golf swing.

On the forehand stills, he has virtually the same issues. Although he has some hip and shoulder rotation, they are following, not leading the swing path, and therefore, cannot generate a kinetic chain and assist him in generating additional racquet head speed.



Not if you mean analyzing a tennis stroke. :p
Usually I play the role of presenting crazy theories that @nytennisaddict, @SinjinCooper ... sometimes @J011yroger (but he would rather mess with your head than give you the right answer) ... that they can destroy with instructor wisdom. I feel such role reversal with you ... it makes me uncomfortable. :D But the end goal is somebody, anybody ... learning something that is useful.

No other way to do this but one at a time ... it's a nonsense-rich target environment:

"In the backhand stills, there is virtually no upper body involvement at all. "

You can't get to that quality of backswing without quality upper body (and lower body) involvement. From there he hits the ball ... can't do that without upper body involvement last I checked. You may not like the "how" ... give us details on that, not "dude ain't doing nothin with his upper body". Come on Prof

"His legs and hips are stationary"

OMG ... you are so f****** with me. Let's count the ways his legs aren't stationary:
- runs to the ball
- has good backswing on both FH and BH
- weight transfers to to front foot in both strokes with step to front leg

", and his shoulders follow his swing path rather than lead it."

I don't even know how to slam that because I have no idea what that could mean other than early signs of dementia.

"Further, it is impossible to hinge from the shoulder(s) with two hands on the racquet."

WTF? Who was talking about hinging from the shoulders. The other voice in your head? The shoulder/arms/hands triangle work together ... that's why it ain't no stinkin LH FH.

"If you had more stills, you would see that his swing is generated by straightening and then bending his elbows."

Repeat after me ... TLM has a shoulder swing, and not a arm swing. The arm parts have nothing to do with "generating a swing". His shoulders turn the swing.

If you need a refresher on "non-swing generating 2hbh arm and grip stuff" ... you could do a lot worse than reading Yandell's article here -> https://www.tennisplayer.net/public..._complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

I can hit bent/bent, bent/straight, straight/straight ... but none of it will generate a swing. Sometimes it generates a ball into the fence, however.

"If he was employing good UBR and the kinetic chain, his hips would be facing (or close to facing), the target before contact, and his left knee would be collapsed inward like a left handed golf swing."

Now you are getting into the Limpin "sweet spot"... spend more time here. I will have to go back and read that again, and see if it needs any BBP *****-slapping... but at least that stuff has a chance to be accurate.

"On the forehand stills, he has virtually the same issues."

No ... rinse and repeat.

"Although he has some hip and shoulder rotation"

His BH looks great ... hip line past feet, shoulder line past hips. Good job TLM.

FH ... I have a harder time judging here. As Sinjin and Jolly pointed out, on a non-open stance FH, you create your final hip+nipple coil with your step onto the front leg. It matters how you step with that front leg. You can step in a way that opens the hip (coils the hip), or leave it neutral. TLM might still be too hip neutral here after his step. Also ... also possible he doesn't have the nipple-to-hip stretch/tension/turn required to have the full package to uncoil. Seriously ... anyone reading this ... go read Sinjin's post I linked above. I have always been confused about coiling on the front foot FH ... he helped a lot.


", they are following, not leading the swing path, and therefore, cannot generate a kinetic chain and assist him in generating additional racquet head speed."

Again ... do your full Limpin thing here. My 2hbh alley drill is posted above ... you can *****-slap that all you want. I'm making progress ... but I still need to add more pace. Maybe you can work on the BBP-chain. LOL ... good luck with that.

As always ... a pleasure doing business with you. Come again. :rolleyes:
 
#12
It takes a goat to know one ... we should drink together and then come make some posts. :p

Look you limpin Goat ... let's just solve the following before we go any further.

' you misunderstand what an arm swing is, and you are misinterpreting what you see in these stills."

This is the problem with debating tennis strokes ... there really is no set definition on all the terms. You always say there is ... but you are just looking at the definitions in your head... which has to be a scary place. Let's agree (LOL) on the following before further discussion:

!) If your shoulders turn the arm/s back, and the hand travels with your shoulder turn into contact (or at least the initial start of the swing forward), that is a SHOULDER swing and not a ARM swing.
2) you can have a shoulder swing ... you could still possibly be lacking on the k-chain thingy ... "not enough of something" , "wrong timing", missing k-components ... WHATEVER.
3) if you have a shoulder swing ... there is NO SUCH THING as "ARM LAG" ... just "RACQUET LAG"... the upper arm travels with the shoulders.

JMO ... but I think you could do your K-CHAIN-THINGY education better if you avoided the term "arming" with a stroke like TLM's. He has a shoulder swing ... it's obvious. His has quality shoulder turn (possibly needs more nipple-to-hip tension on his FH ... waiting for @SinjinCooper on that one). Shoulders don't lead the arm ... they go together. You expertise here ... IMO ... is from the ground up prior to his shoulder swing.

I'm addressing the rest of your STUFF in a second post. Maybe by the time I finish *****-slapping your theories, you will have agreed with my wisdom in this post.
I suggest that we dispense with all of your irrelevant tangents, diversions and misunderstandings, and just focus on how to execute optimal technique. tlm hits a nice ball. But, he could do better. His technique is sub-optimal. Whether or not he wants to invest the time and effort to improve his technique is another matter.
 
#13
Usually I play the role of presenting crazy theories that @nytennisaddict, @SinjinCooper ... sometimes @J011yroger (but he would rather mess with your head than give you the right answer) ... that they can destroy with instructor wisdom. I feel such role reversal with you ... it makes me uncomfortable. :D But the end goal is somebody, anybody ... learning something that is useful.

No other way to do this but one at a time ... it's a nonsense-rich target environment:

"In the backhand stills, there is virtually no upper body involvement at all. "

You can't get to that quality of backswing without quality upper body (and lower body) involvement. From there he hits the ball ... can't do that without upper body involvement last I checked. You may not like the "how" ... give us details on that, not "dude ain't doing nothin with his upper body". Come on Prof

"His legs and hips are stationary"

OMG ... you are so f****** with me. Let's count the ways his legs aren't stationary:
- runs to the ball
- has good backswing on both FH and BH
- weight transfers to to front foot in both strokes with step to front leg

", and his shoulders follow his swing path rather than lead it."

I don't even know how to slam that because I have no idea what that could mean other than early signs of dementia.

"Further, it is impossible to hinge from the shoulder(s) with two hands on the racquet."

WTF? Who was talking about hinging from the shoulders. The other voice in your head? The shoulder/arms/hands triangle work together ... that's why it ain't no stinkin LH FH.

"If you had more stills, you would see that his swing is generated by straightening and then bending his elbows."

Repeat after me ... TLM has a shoulder swing, and not a arm swing. The arm parts have nothing to do with "generating a swing". His shoulders turn the swing.

If you need a refresher on "non-swing generating 2hbh arm and grip stuff" ... you could do a lot worse than reading Yandell's article here -> https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/two_handed_backhand/2hd_bh_simplest_complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

I can hit bent/bent, bent/straight, straight/straight ... but none of it will generate a swing. Sometimes it generates a ball into the fence, however.

"If he was employing good UBR and the kinetic chain, his hips would be facing (or close to facing), the target before contact, and his left knee would be collapsed inward like a left handed golf swing."

Now you are getting into the Limpin "sweet spot"... spend more time here. I will have to go back and read that again, and see if it needs any BBP *****-slapping... but at least that stuff has a chance to be accurate.

"On the forehand stills, he has virtually the same issues."

No ... rinse and repeat.

"Although he has some hip and shoulder rotation"

His BH looks great ... hip line past feet, shoulder line past hips. Good job TLM.

FH ... I have a harder time judging here. As Sinjin and Jolly pointed out, on a non-open stance FH, you create your final hip+nipple coil with your step onto the front leg. It matters how you step with that front leg. You can step in a way that opens the hip (coils the hip), or leave it neutral. TLM might still be too hip neutral here after his step. Also ... also possible he doesn't have the nipple-to-hip stretch/tension/turn required to have the full package to uncoil. Seriously ... anyone reading this ... go read Sinjin's post I linked above. I have always been confused about coiling on the front foot FH ... he helped a lot.


", they are following, not leading the swing path, and therefore, cannot generate a kinetic chain and assist him in generating additional racquet head speed."

Again ... do your full Limpin thing here. My 2hbh alley drill is posted above ... you can *****-slap that all you want. I'm making progress ... but I still need to add more pace. Maybe you can work on the BBP-chain. LOL ... good luck with that.

As always ... a pleasure doing business with you. Come again. :rolleyes:
I would rather read stereo instructions for pleasure than slog through this epileptic seizure of a post.
 
#14
I suggest that we dispense with all of your irrelevant tangents, diversions and misunderstandings, and just focus on how to execute optimal technique. tlm hits a nice ball. But, his technique is sub-optimal. He could do better. Whether or not he wants to invest the time and effort to improve his technique is another matter.
LOL ... you aren't going to like that next post. If your starting advice to TLM is "he has a arm swing" ... you are the tangent. However, if you start with "dude, I can improve your k-chaining ... do this"... now we are talking.
 
#15
I suggest that we dispense with all of your irrelevant tangents, diversions and misunderstandings, and just focus on how to execute optimal technique. tlm hits a nice ball. But, he could do better. His technique is sub-optimal. Whether or not he wants to invest the time and effort to improve his technique is another matter.
I have no doubt that my technique is sub-optimal and I want to improve it. Just not positive on what to improve first, I'm thinking that incorporating the legs and stop jerking my head off the ball would be a good place to start.
 
#17
I suggest that we dispense with all of your irrelevant tangents, diversions and misunderstandings, and just focus on how to execute optimal technique. tlm hits a nice ball. But, he could do better. His technique is sub-optimal. Whether or not he wants to invest the time and effort to improve his technique is another matter.
But Limpin those are some of the things that makes byebye's posts so great.
 
#19
I have no doubt that my technique is sub-optimal and I want to improve it. Just not positive on what to improve first, I'm thinking that incorporating the legs and stop jerking my head off the ball would be a good place to start.
I've given you my advice. If you don't agree with it, that's your prerogative.

PS: If you start by focusing on initiating your forward swing with hip rotation, and maintain a loose, relaxed grip and arm(s), the rest will (should), fall into place.
 
#20
I've given you my advice. If you don't agree with it, that's your prerogative.
I'm not saying that you don't give some good advise because I think you do. You have pointed out that I'm not using the kinetic chain property which I totally agree. I've heard other guys say that the hips should turn first then the shoulders should follow like you have mentioned. I believe that is correct and I know that I don't do that enough if any. So I'm going to try and correct that. I disagree with you when you said my shots are all arm that's all, I think they are maybe half arm instead. Lol
 
#22
But Limpin those are some of the things that makes byebye's posts so great.
Thx ... I think. :p

I think you are like me ... interested on working on technique for the satisfaction of improving the stroke, regardless of winning more matches. I certainly would not have touched a 2hbh if my goal was winning more. I think your strokes are good ... winning/losing always comes down more to other things than what strokes look like (UEs, targeting, shot tolerance, tactics/patterns). Let's put it this way, I play with guys in singles that would never pass the Limpin stroke test ... but are tough as hell to beat.

I just looked at your video again looking for this "jerking the head up thing". That's not what I saw. On the 2hbh ... your head stays level at contact, and then you step up some on the right leg. So does Murray. On hour FH, you are stepping up (body/shoulders/head going up ... not jerking your head up) as you swing into contact. If that's a problem, I have the same problem. I just checked my FH DTL video above, and I'm stepping up some also into contact. It seems like your pretty much have to hitting FHs off back leg because you are driving up with the leg. But probably on the FHs stepping onto front foot, you might get some consistency dividends from a level head. Do you know how to walk through Youtube videos one frame at a time with ">" and "<" keys? That how I check. I run your video to a little before contact, and then keep hitting ">" through your contact.

I actually think the "keeping the head still" might be overrated. They said that about the golf swing forever ... and then Annika Sörenstam arrived.
 
#24
Thx ... I think. :p

I think you are like me ... interested on working on technique for the satisfaction of improving the stroke, regardless of winning more matches. I certainly would not have touched a 2hbh if my goal was winning more. I think your strokes are good ... winning/losing always comes down more to other things than what strokes look like (UEs, targeting, shot tolerance, tactics/patterns). Let's put it this way, I play with guys in singles that would never pass the Limpin stroke test ... but are tough as hell to beat.

I just looked at your video again looking for this "jerking the head up thing". That's not what I saw. On the 2hbh ... your head stays level at contact, and then you step up some on the right leg. So does Murray. On hour FH, you are stepping up (body/shoulders/head going up ... not jerking your head up) as you swing into contact. If that's a problem, I have the same problem. I just checked my FH DTL video above, and I'm stepping up some also into contact. It seems like your pretty much have to hitting FHs off back leg because you are driving up with the leg. But probably on the FHs stepping onto front foot, you might get some consistency dividends from a level head. Do you know how to walk through Youtube videos one frame at a time with ">" and "<" keys? That how I check. I run your video to a little before contact, and then keep hitting ">" through your contact.

I actually think the "keeping the head still" might be overrated. They said that about the golf swing forever ... and then Annika Sörenstam arrived.
I hope your right because I hit with the ball machine yesterday and tried to use the legs more and keep my head still. The bending of the legs was very beneficial especially on the backhand. But trying to keep my head still and keep it looking at contact after ball was gone was very difficult and was not working well for me. So I'm trying to just keep my head more still.

My video player on my apple computer lets me do the frame by frame advance which does really help you see what is really going on.
 
#25
I hope your right because I hit with the ball machine yesterday and tried to use the legs more and keep my head still. The bending of the legs was very beneficial especially on the backhand. But trying to keep my head still and keep it looking at contact after ball was gone was very difficult and was not working well for me. So I'm trying to just keep my head more still.

My video player on my apple computer lets me do the frame by frame advance which does really help you see what is really going on.
Good ... I'm on a Windows PC, and my Movie Maker skills are WEAK. As far as I know, Media Player appears pretty weak. But anyone can do the ">" frame advancement with the Youtube video if the browser supports it. Chrome on the PC allows it, and also has the gear icon that lets you change the speed (I use .25 a lot). FYI ... for others. Chas taught me that one.
 
#26
I've given you my advice. If you don't agree with it, that's your prerogative.

PS: If you start by focusing on initiating your forward swing with hip rotation, and maintain a loose, relaxed grip and arm(s), the rest will (should), fall into place.
I just posted the video ... no Limpin advice. I'm talking about the 2hbh video above ... where I am doing the Alley drill. I'm focused on 2hbh only for the next several weaks.

"If you start by focusing on initiating your forward swing with hip rotation"

On 2hbh where you step onto the front foot you don't "start uncoiling from the back leg". You coil on the back leg, then step, then uncoil on the front leg.

Probably another seizure ... but more pics:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-on-two-handed-backhand.601480/#post-11695623
 
#27
TLM, the huge problem has been (for years now) that you hit your forehand with a closed stance with a western grip. Simply put, don't do that. If you change your stance to semi-open/fully-open, the rest of your mechanics will fall into place naturally.

Get rid of the 1950s stance and the rest will take care of itself.
 
#29
Is his forehand stance closed or neutral?
It's closed. His inside foot (closest to his hitting hand) is his LEFT foot. That's just bad, bad, bad with his grip.

There's two choices: 1) Change the stance to open stance or 2) Change the forehand grip to continental/servers grip. One or the other. But not both.
 
#30
TLM, the huge problem has been (for years now) that you hit your forehand with a closed stance with a western grip. Simply put, don't do that. If you change your stance to semi-open/fully-open, the rest of your mechanics will fall into place naturally.

Get rid of the 1950s stance and the rest will take care of itself.
Hey mighty ... how have you been? Haven't seen you posting.

I had to go check TLM FH stance after you typed that. Past neutral ... but not that bad. Did you mean he should hit more FHs off his back foot? Pretty good discussion of that here:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/open-or-closed-stance.601710/

I think Sinjin is right, we all have to have the front foot (neutral) FH in our bag ... but we can pick what we standardize on with baseline rally balls. I fixed a lot of FH timing issues this spring by sticking with the semi open stance back foot FHs this spring. You raise a good point. TLM ... do you ever hit back foot FHs. It does seem like it might suit you.
 
#31
Hey mighty ... how have you been? Haven't seen you posting.

I had to go check TLM FH stance after you typed that. Past neutral ... but not that bad. Did you mean he should hit more FHs off his back foot? Pretty good discussion of that here:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/open-or-closed-stance.601710/

I think Sinjin is right, we all have to have the front foot (neutral) FH in our bag ... but we can pick what we standardize on with baseline rally balls. I fixed a lot of FH timing issues this spring by sticking with the semi open stance back foot FHs this spring. You raise a good point. TLM ... do you ever hit back foot FHs. It does seem like it might suit you.
Been good, thanks. I'm saying he should be hitting with a semi-open stance (at the least) with an extreme grip. Neutral is potentially fine if you are eastern/extreme-eastern. But honestly, I think neutral should only be used when the situation demands it (like Federer/Berdych/Murray does).

For a right-handed hitter with a semi-western/western grip, the inside foot should be the RIGHT foot. The goal at the end of the unit-turn is to plant the right leg, bend at the knee, the push down into the ground with the right hip/leg to turn the hips. Hips pull the core, core pulls the shoulder, shoulder pulls the arm, arm pulls the wrist, wrist pulls the racquet. A modern grip demands it.

I know a few 4.5s who play closed stance. But all of them are 50+ years old and hold continental or extreme-continental/mild-eastern/servers forehand grips.
 
#32
A standard-fare eastern forehand hitting a normal rally ball. The stance says it all:



A standard-fare western forehand hitting a normal rally ball. Again, the stance says it all:

 
#33
TLM, the huge problem has been (for years now) that you hit your forehand with a closed stance with a western grip. Simply put, don't do that. If you change your stance to semi-open/fully-open, the rest of your mechanics will fall into place naturally.

Get rid of the 1950s stance and the rest will take care of itself.
You have a point there. I think when I have time like in this video with the machine I turn more to try and hit harder. When I was working with a coach on approach shots this summer he told me to not close my stance to much with the grip I'm using.

I think when I'm hitting with an opponent I don't close as much because of less time and I'm in the flow of the point. I have a hard time getting a good rhythm hitting with machine. But regardless I will pay more attention to staying at least neutral.
 
#34
You have a point there. I think when I have time like in this video with the machine I turn more to try and hit harder. When I was working with a coach on approach shots this summer he told me to not close my stance to much with the grip I'm using.

I think when I'm hitting with an opponent I don't close as much because of less time and I'm in the flow of the point. I have a hard time getting a good rhythm hitting with machine. But regardless I will pay more attention to staying at least neutral.
I would argue that when you play in a match that you probably are even more closed. In a match, you have less time. Less time means preparing later and that almost always results in a more closed stance.

If you are in a closed stance hitting against a ball machine shooting sitters to the center of the court, then you definitely are hitting closed stance against opponents who are taking time away from you.

Just open the stance, and the rest will follow.
 
#35
Been good, thanks. I'm saying he should be hitting with a semi-open stance (at the least) with an extreme grip. Neutral is potentially fine if you are eastern/extreme-eastern. But honestly, I think neutral should only be used when the situation demands it (like Federer/Berdych/Murray does).

For a right-handed hitter with a semi-western/western grip, the inside foot should be the RIGHT foot. The goal at the end of the unit-turn is to plant the right leg, bend at the knee, the push down into the ground with the right hip/leg to turn the hips. Hips pull the core, core pulls the shoulder, shoulder pulls the arm, arm pulls the wrist, wrist pulls the racquet. A modern grip demands it.

I know a few 4.5s who play closed stance. But all of them are 50+ years old and hold continental or extreme-continental/mild-eastern/servers forehand grips.
Yeah ... I'm a semi open stance guy hitting off the back leg... and that's the majority of pro FHs behind the baseline on balls not on the run (sideways, or into the court). I was just making the distinction between 1) hitting off the back leg FHs ... and 2) where you step forward onto front foot like what TLM is doiing. To me, that's the bigger issue than stances ... hitting off back leg ... or stepping onto front leg. If you are stepping forward to hit off front leg (TLM's left leg in this case) ... than neutral ... or close to neutral is what you are going to end up with. TLM isn't a lot past neutral ... i.e. not a severely closed stance.

TLM should try some open (off back foot) FHs and see how it goes. I watched the Fed vs Potro match the other day, and from the middle behind the baseline it was almost exclusively open-off-back-foot FHs. When Del Potro woud hit his neutral-step-forward FH was when the ball was short and he had to run in enough where he couldn't hit his open stance. But like Sinjin said in another thread, that doesn't necessarily mean a rec player should choose the open stance FH. It has it's own set of timing issues. For me, it worked out better.
 
#36
TLM, the huge problem has been (for years now) that you hit your forehand with a closed stance with a western grip. Simply put, don't do that. If you change your stance to semi-open/fully-open, the rest of your mechanics will fall into place naturally.

Get rid of the 1950s stance and the rest will take care of itself.
May have hit the nail on the head. Don't think there is any reason to hit closed stance fh at any time on a normal rally ball.
As I recall taking clinics, the coaches would pull aside players that were hitting closed stance and force them to hit open, semi-open or neutral.
IIRC, something to do with closed stance limiting hip rotation.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#37
May have hit the nail on the head. Don't think there is any reason to hit closed stance fh at any time on a normal rally ball.
As I recall taking clinics, the coaches would pull aside players that were hitting closed stance and force them to hit open, semi-open or neutral.
IIRC, something to do with closed stance limiting hip rotation.
*shakes fist angrily*

J
 
#38
May have hit the nail on the head. Don't think there is any reason to hit closed stance fh at any time on a normal rally ball.
As I recall taking clinics, the coaches would pull aside players that were hitting closed stance and force them to hit open, semi-open or neutral.
IIRC, something to do with closed stance limiting hip rotation.
I've heard that advice also ... but I see the pros often hitting their biggest 2hbhs from closed stances. I can't figure out a reason why it would limit the FH and not the 2hbh.
 
#39
I've heard that advice also ... but I see the pros often hitting their biggest 2hbhs from closed stances. I can't figure out a reason why it would limit the FH and not the 2hbh.
Backhands are different. Closed stance is very normal for backhand. Two handed or one handed.

But for normal rally forehand shots, there simply is no place for a closed stance (rarely even neutral stance for that matter). The prescription for normal forehand rally shots is a semi-open or fully-open stance.
 
#41
Puts the shoulder on the ball hittin' side.
I didn't think you would ever make me laugh more than bolting on a tournament match over mini tennis. This was close. LOL!!!

There is no "coiling" issue with the closed stance FH as long as you are aiming for the court to your right.

Houston ... we have a problem.
 
#44
Backhands are different. Closed stance is very normal for backhand. Two handed or one handed.

But for normal rally forehand shots, there simply is no place for a closed stance (rarely even neutral stance for that matter). The prescription for normal forehand rally shots is a semi-open or fully-open stance.
Here is a clip of me hitting with an opponent. It looks like most forehands are hit in an open stance, but it looks like on some when I try and hit harder I tend to close some.

 
Last edited:
#45
Here is a clip of me hitting with an opponent. It looks like most forehands are hit in an open stance, but it looks like on some when I try and hit harder I tend to close some.

Yep ... if I was you, that's the FH I would try to hit regularly. Fits the TLM spin, grip, muscles and angry. Mighty nailed it. Well ... Mighty said it and you nailed them.
 
#46
Yep ... if I was you, that's the FH I would try to hit regularly. Fits the TLM spin, grip, muscles and angry. Mighty nailed it. Well ... Mighty said it and you nailed them.
Like I said I never feel in good rhythm while hitting with ball machine. Plus I had it set to work on putting away short balls. Which it looks like what Mighty pointed out about me using to much of a closed stance is true, but I think I do this on sitters in the court that I am trying to hit harder than normal.

But when hitting against an opponent I think I use open stance most of the time. In the past I have been told that I hit off back leg to much which is definitely using an open stance. But because I'm not very smooth or mechanically correct I'm all over the map some open some neutral and some closed. But this video above does shows the anger you talk about. Lol
 
#47
Like I said I never feel in good rhythm while hitting with ball machine. Plus I had it set to work on putting away short balls. Which it looks like what Mighty pointed out about me using to much of a closed stance is true, but I think I do this on sitters in the court that I am trying to hit harder than normal.

But when hitting against an opponent I think I use open stance most of the time. In the past I have been told that I hit off back leg to much which is definitely using an open stance. But because I'm not very smooth or mechanically correct I'm all over the map some open some neutral and some closed. But this video above does shows the anger you talk about. Lol
I'm just kidding with the angry. Nadal hits angry ... works pretty good.

"Plus I had it set to work on putting away short balls."

Oh yeah ... that actually explains it. It's like I said above. Even the pros that hit open every chance they can ... hit neutral (step FHs) when they are on the move in. My guess is if you set the ball machine up feeding you balls deeper, you go right back to open stance. Not sure about the comment "too much open stance"... guess I would have to hear the context of that.
 
#48
Here is a clip of me hitting with an opponent. It looks like most forehands are hit in an open stance, but it looks like on some when I try and hit harder I tend to close some.

In this video you hit with a more open stance when your opponent jams you. Every jammed shot is more open. I guess because you don't have time to close your stance to hit your regular rally forehand.

But when you have time to set up, you close your stance. It's a bad habit. Bad muscle memory.

Just force yourself to take one step with your right foot to the side as you do the unit turn. After doing that for a couple weeks, you won't even think about it anymore.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#49
In this video you hit with a more open stance when your opponent jams you. Every jammed shot is more open. I guess because you don't have time to close your stance to hit your regular rally forehand.

But when you have time to set up, you close your stance. It's a bad habit. Bad muscle memory.

Just force yourself to take one step with your right foot to the side as you do the unit turn. After doing that for a couple weeks, you won't even think about it anymore.
Why do you think closed stance is so bad? Do you have a video of you hitting?

J
 
#50
Like I said I never feel in good rhythm while hitting with ball machine. Plus I had it set to work on putting away short balls. Which it looks like what Mighty pointed out about me using to much of a closed stance is true, but I think I do this on sitters in the court that I am trying to hit harder than normal.

But when hitting against an opponent I think I use open stance most of the time. In the past I have been told that I hit off back leg to much which is definitely using an open stance. But because I'm not very smooth or mechanically correct I'm all over the map some open some neutral and some closed. But this video above does shows the anger you talk about. Lol
It's always good to check yourself by video. I assumed I hit the vast majority of my FHs open off back foot. I just went and checked my FH DTL video on your other thread, and wow ... totally random. Random for dtl ... and random for cc. If Might doesn't like your closed stance FHs ... he really isn't going to like mine. You are barely past neutral ... I'm way over there. It would be interesting to see my patterns when playing a singles match rather than hitting against the ball machine. I have bagged singles for this year do to the hamstring since only a month out from winter doubles only ... but maybe I can video a hit at least.
 
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