Slow Motion Video

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru


Roast me sir. Roast me. Sorry it's 1 shot cause I gave myself 15 minutes after getting off work. Still have the flu and I worked on 1 BH shot I recorded there, and everything else was crosscourt FH which was giving me major UE yesterday night's match.

Feel free to do the slow pic thing like you did with TLM. I've only been playing for 4 months so roast me hard.

And don't hate on my "Save the Whales" tote. Didn't have energy to bring tennis ball rack.

edit: I meant to do more than 1 shot, but I noticed tonight still not closing my racquet enough on FH..... :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
literally my last shot of the night and then went home :oops::eek::confused:
If you want advice, I would tell you not to take the racquet back with your hands, leave your hands in the ready position and just turn your shoulders. Your hands and racquet should be between your shoulders in front of your chest, not behind your back shoulder.

J
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
If you want advice, I would tell you not to take the racquet back with your hands, leave your hands in the ready position and just turn your shoulders. Your hands and racquet should be between your shoulders in front of your chest, not behind your back shoulder.

J
Good point thank you :oops:
Edit: arr matey* good point
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
If you want advice, I would tell you not to take the racquet back with your hands, leave your hands in the ready position and just turn your shoulders. Your hands and racquet should be between your shoulders in front of your chest, not behind your back shoulder.

J
Good catch. That's what @nytennisaddict says as a tip ... take the racquet back with the shoulders, and forward with the shoulders. I had to go check my 2hbh video. Yep, I could make some improvement there. I'm going to check yours next. :p

@iChen ... look at Joker here ... his hands and racquet head is tracking with his shoulder turn:



From this video:

 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
@geca posted this video before regarding hands (snap) in the 2hbh.

Listen to Mario starting around 2:50 ... and see what you think. I've looked for that in Djokovic's 2hbh (video above), and he seems to extend more through contact than roll (snap) like what Mario is showing. Obviously Mario knows what he is talking about, so I'm not sure how to use the information.

 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Hm Novak probably just turns shoulder and doesn’t really move arm on take back. More shadow swings tonight :(
You and me both. If we judge it by the position of the hands relative to the chest (just forget racquet head while viewing) ... then @J011yroger has some work to do also. Can you tell him for me ... he might not take it well. :confused:
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
You and me both. If we judge it by the position of the hands relative to the chest (just forget racquet head while viewing) ... then @J011yroger has some work to do also. Can you tell him for me ... he might not take it well. :confused:
Um. I don’t know if I’d want a 1 legged pirate wearing an eyepatch striking me with a sword.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
If you rotate your hips quickly just before the forward swing on 2hbh, you can get that whipping motion. Hands and wrists need to be relaxed enough for the racket to whip.
So I checked Mr Safin on the first 2hbh, and the next full 2hbh in (closed stance). I run the video frame by frame ... noting when the shoulder turn starts forward, and when the hips start rotating forward. It's at the exact same time, nearest I can tell. This is what happens every time I look at video for the "hips first, and then shoulders". This is relevant to me because I also want to add some pace to my 2hbh. I hear "hips first" and "pull from your core first"....
To be more accurate, I should say the leg/hip drive and core turn happen first, and then the racket head lags behind which creates the whip.
Just like left-handed batters and golfers.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
.
Damn. Need to take some from the side and have a look.

J
So obviously the shoulder arm triangle take back together thing is correct ... and really good advice, but now I'm still confused. It would be easy if you could say ... just keep those hands centered with your chest ... and turn your chest/torso enough to give yourself enough backswing. But that's not what happens exactly. At the end of the backswing... Joker and Murray go a little further with the arms turning back from the shoulder joint. The question is ... how much " a little more" is to much. If we say iChen's is to much, we have to be able to quantify what's the acceptable range.

Here's Joker, Murray, Jolly, iChen and BBP in order of quality 2hbh. :D



I appear to be the only one without the right arm extended on the turn like it should be. Maybe I grabbed the wrong frame. :rolleyes:
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
.


So obviously the shoulder arm triangle take back together thing is correct ... and really good advice, but now I'm still confused. It would be easy if you could say ... just keep those hands centered with your chest ... and turn your chest/torso enough to give yourself enough backswing. But that's not what happens exactly. At the end of the backswing... Joker and Murray go a little further with the arms turning back from the shoulder joint. The question is ... how much " a little more" is to much. If we say iChen's is to much, we have to be able to quantify what's the acceptable range.

Here's Joker, Murray, Jolly, iChen and BBP in order of quality 2hbh. :D



I appear to be the only one without the right arm extended on the turn like it should be. Maybe I grabbed the wrong frame. :rolleyes:
You are going to hate the answer.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
What is the answer?
That there is no specific answer, and you have to smoothly turn and relax your arms and focus on throwing your hands at the target and everything will fall into place and everyone will be slightly different.

J
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
.


So obviously the shoulder arm triangle take back together thing is correct ... and really good advice, but now I'm still confused. It would be easy if you could say ... just keep those hands centered with your chest ... and turn your chest/torso enough to give yourself enough backswing. But that's not what happens exactly. At the end of the backswing... Joker and Murray go a little further with the arms turning back from the shoulder joint. The question is ... how much " a little more" is to much. If we say iChen's is to much, we have to be able to quantify what's the acceptable range.

Here's Joker, Murray, Jolly, iChen and BBP in order of quality 2hbh. :D



I appear to be the only one without the right arm extended on the turn like it should be. Maybe I grabbed the wrong frame. :rolleyes:
@tlm so bad he didn’t even get to make the list :(
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That there is no specific answer, and you have to smoothly turn and relax your arms and focus on throwing your hands at the target and everything will fall into place and everyone will be slightly different.

J
OK ... I just corrected what you told grasshopper Chen:

"If you want advice, I would tell you not to take the racquet back with your hands, leave your hands in the ready position and just turn your shoulders. Your hands and racquet should be between your shoulders in front of your chest, not behind your back shoulder.... at first, and then you can move your arms and hands further back."
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
OK ... I just corrected what you told grasshopper Chen:

"If you want advice, I would tell you not to take the racquet back with your hands, leave your hands in the ready position and just turn your shoulders. Your hands and racquet should be between your shoulders in front of your chest, not behind your back shoulder.... at first, and then you can move your arms and hands further back."
I said what I said for a reason.

J
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I said what I said for a reason.

J
Mental toughness? F***ing with Chen? You want to be the only one on this forum with a good 2hbh?

Speaking of mental toughness, I must have it. I hit this morning with a friend, and videoed some of the hit. After watching the video, anyone lacking in mental toughness (not to mention pride) would just quit tennis. So far, I haven't quit.
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
I suggest that we dispense with all of your irrelevant tangents, diversions and misunderstandings, and just focus on how to execute optimal technique. tlm hits a nice ball. But, he could do better. His technique is sub-optimal. Whether or not he wants to invest the time and effort to improve his technique is another matter.
I think one needs to be aware of the adage, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." It's unlikely that tlm could do much better with his strokes at this age. I have yet to see an older tennis/golf learner, ever, develop a fluid kinetic chain through practice and lessons. You can fix guys grips, approach to the ball, backswing and even swing plane. But fixing a kinetic chain is extremely difficult. Almost every player of "kinetic chain"-y sports like golf and tennis developed their fluid swings at a young age. Its hard to reprogram those old programs after they've established themselves by adulthood.

Things tlm should work on to gain more power:
1) Get more separation from the ball. That will give you a leverage advantage to develop more RHS.
2) Get set up earlier with your left arm pointing to the right fence to encourage more shoulder turn coil. You start your swing with your chest already partially open.

Those are doable changes and will probably help a lot in your FH strokes.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Mental toughness? F***ing with Chen? You want to be the only one on this forum with a good 2hbh?

Speaking of mental toughness, I must have it. I hit this morning with a friend, and videoed some of the hit. After watching the video, anyone lacking in mental toughness (not to mention pride) would just quit tennis. So far, I haven't quit.
Now I wanna watch.
 

mightyrick

Legend
I think one needs to be aware of the adage, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." It's unlikely that tlm could do much better with his strokes at this age. I have yet to see an older tennis/golf learner, ever, develop a fluid kinetic chain through practice and lessons. You can fix guys grips, approach to the ball, backswing and even swing plane. But fixing a kinetic chain is extremely difficult. Almost every player of "kinetic chain"-y sports like golf and tennis developed their fluid swings at a young age. Its hard to reprogram those old programs after they've established themselves by adulthood.
I think generally what you are saying is true. I mean, when @tlm creates one of these threads... those of us who have been around for awhile... we know what it is and give it it's due consideration. He's kind of like the next generation LeeD but with video. :)

That being said, I have seen some guys tlm's age make adjustments and get BETTER. I'm thinking of two specific guys I know. Unfortunately, both of them made changes in response to injury. One guy had a severe knee problem and the other had a shoulder issue. The knee problem guy got a coach and started leaning how to end points quicker -- due to his mobility problems. The shoulder problem guy got a coach, changed to a continental forehand, and started learning how to hit incredible flat and slice shots. Very little topspin and shoulder rotation.

One guy went from a 4.0 to a solid NTRP 4.5 and the other is middle-4.0. Both guys are computer-rated players.

While I don't wish injury on tlm or anybody. I will say that people in general do not change unless they have no other choice. It is human nature, I think.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
I think one needs to be aware of the adage, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." It's unlikely that tlm could do much better with his strokes at this age. I have yet to see an older tennis/golf learner, ever, develop a fluid kinetic chain through practice and lessons. You can fix guys grips, approach to the ball, backswing and even swing plane. But fixing a kinetic chain is extremely difficult. Almost every player of "kinetic chain"-y sports like golf and tennis developed their fluid swings at a young age. Its hard to reprogram those old programs after they've established themselves by adulthood.

Things tlm should work on to gain more power:
1) Get more separation from the ball. That will give you a leverage advantage to develop more RHS.
2) Get set up earlier with your left arm pointing to the right fence to encourage more shoulder turn coil. You start your swing with your chest already partially open.

Those are doable changes and will probably help a lot in your FH strokes.
I think you are selling tlm short. It's not that hard if you have sufficient athleticism and coordination, which tlm does.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I think generally what you are saying is true. I mean, when @tlm creates one of these threads... those of us who have been around for awhile... we know what it is and give it it's due consideration. He's kind of like the next generation LeeD but with video. :)

That being said, I have seen some guys tlm's age make adjustments and get BETTER. I'm thinking of two specific guys I know. Unfortunately, both of them made changes in response to injury. One guy had a severe knee problem and the other had a shoulder issue. The knee problem guy got a coach and started leaning how to end points quicker -- due to his mobility problems. The shoulder problem guy got a coach, changed to a continental forehand, and started learning how to hit incredible flat and slice shots. Very little topspin and shoulder rotation.

One guy went from a 4.0 to a solid NTRP 4.5 and the other is middle-4.0. Both guys are computer-rated players.

While I don't wish injury on tlm or anybody. I will say that people in general do not change unless they have no other choice. It is human nature, I think.

I think if you look at some of my videos from a few years back compared to now it shows that I have made improvement. For one thing I only used a 1 handed slice backhand in the past and now I'm using the 2 hander a good % of the time. More than a few guys here have noticed that my strokes have improved and I know that I'm playing better than I ever have in the past.

I am beating opponents now that I could never beat in the past, plus I'm playing some better players now that wouldn't have hit with me a year or two ago and I am giving them a battle. The true test is when you hit with better guys and they continue to ask you to hit.

What do you mean I'm the next generation leed with video? That's just you having to take a shot at me for some reason you have to get your cheap shot in. I have been working on my game pretty hard the last few years and taking lessons.

This is a tennis discussion board and a lot of guys here like actually seeing video of rec players instead of just talk. At least going by the replys it seems there is some interest, and I'm sure other players learn from seeing a player like myself that is around their level and can learn from all the suggestions that many here contribute.

I think that is more interesting and beneficial to the site as opposed to you and lee just yapping all the time. Talk is cheap and like the old saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words.
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
I think you are selling tlm short. It's not that hard if you have sufficient athleticism and coordination, which tlm does.
I don't think I'm selling anyone short. Human nervous system is what it is. Most motor fluidity patterns are programmed at a young age.
It's like many patients with terminal cancer saying "they'll beat it." Yes they need to say it to keep hope up, but every doc knows it's not going to happen.

Now I'm not saying tlm can't get better. But that's a different thing than saying that he can reprogram motor pathways to fire his hips, core and shoulders in the precise sequence to produce maximal RHS with perfect timing.

I think he can improve some things for sure like his shoulder coil, early racquet prep, separation, consistency.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
I don't think I'm selling anyone short. Human nervous system is what it is. Most motor fluidity patterns are programmed at a young age.
It's like many patients with terminal cancer saying "they'll beat it." Yes they need to say it to keep hope up, but every doc knows it's not going to happen.

Now I'm not saying tlm can't get better. But that's a different thing than saying that he can reprogram motor pathways to fire his hips, core and shoulders in the precise sequence to produce maximal RHS with perfect timing.

I think he can improve some things for sure like his shoulder coil, early racquet prep, separation, consistency.
Fluidity patterns? Motor pathways? What are you talking about?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I think if you look at some of my videos from a few years back compared to now it shows that I have made improvement. For one thing I only used a 1 handed slice backhand in the past and now I'm using the 2 hander a good % of the time. More than a few guys here have noticed that my strokes have improved and I know that I'm playing better than I ever have in the past.

I am beating opponents now that I could never beat in the past, plus I'm playing some better players now that wouldn't have hit with me a year or two ago and I am giving them a battle. The true test is when you hit with better guys and they continue to ask you to hit.

What do you mean I'm the next generation leed with video? That's just you having to take a shot at me for some reason you have to get your cheap shot in. I have been working on my game pretty hard the last few years and taking lessons.

This is a tennis discussion board and a lot of guys here like actually seeing video of rec players instead of just talk. At least going by the replys it seems there is some interest, and I'm sure other players learn from seeing a player like myself that is around their level and can learn from all the suggestions that many here contribute.

I think that is more interesting and beneficial to the site as opposed to you and lee just yapping all the time. Talk is cheap and like the old saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words.
I will take working on strokes together with video any day over k-chain fake news. :cool:

We will show them ... wait until they see our future "old dog 2hbs"
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
I think if you look at some of my videos from a few years back compared to now it shows that I have made improvement. For one thing I only used a 1 handed slice backhand in the past and now I'm using the 2 hander a good % of the time. More than a few guys here have noticed that my strokes have improved and I know that I'm playing better than I ever have in the past.
I think everyone improves as they play and practice more. But generally its shot selection, consistency, footwork and timing that are the instigators of the improvement. I used to play tennis 10x a year max. Took it up seriously 2 years ago and now I can't even play against my old tennis cronies. I just destroy them and it's no fun for them. Is it because my kinetic chain magically improved? No, I just became far more consistent, was able to work on some little things like foot positioning, grip changes, shoulder turns etc.

So I think you can get better than you are even today. i don't think you'll be hitting like Nick Kyrgios or even any 5.0 rec player anytime soon.
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
Fluidity patterns? Motor pathways? What are you talking about?
Motor neurons fire in set patterns to produce fluid athletic movements. The kinetic chain is a precise motor pattern of neuron firing. Everything is done by your brain at a largely unconscious level and most patterns were developed in childhood. If you are going to bring up kinetic chains into conversation about tennis strokes, you should at least know how they come about.

It's like riding a bike. At one point in your life, you couldn't do it. But then you could as you developed the appropriate motor pathways to react to slight shifts in balance. Now you don't even think about it. But put a 60 year old on a bike that had never ridden one before or performed any balance activity in his life and it could take months to learn. And he would never be as fluid or balanced on the bike as you or anyone else that learned as a child.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Motor neurons fire in set patterns to produce fluid athletic movements. The kinetic chain is a precise motor pattern of neuron firing. Everything is done by your brain at a largely unconscious level and most patterns were developed in childhood. If you are going to bring up kinetic chains into conversation about tennis strokes, you should at least know how they come about.

It's like riding a bike. At one point in your life, you couldn't do it. But then you could as you developed the appropriate motor pathways to react to slight shifts in balance. Now you don't even think about it. But put a 60 year old on a bike that had never ridden one before or performed any balance activity in his life and it could take months to learn. And he would never be as fluid or balanced on the bike as you or anyone else that learned as a child.
Motor nerves "fire" do they? And I need to know about the peripheral nervous system and muscle inervation to discuss the kinetic chain, do I? Ridiculous!
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
If you want advice, I would tell you not to take the racquet back with your hands, leave your hands in the ready position and just turn your shoulders. Your hands and racquet should be between your shoulders in front of your chest, not behind your back shoulder.

J
Good catch. That's what @nytennisaddict says as a tip ... take the racquet back with the shoulders, and forward with the shoulders. I had to go check my 2hbh video. Yep, I could make some improvement there. I'm going to check yours next. :p

@iChen ... look at Joker here ... his hands and racquet head is tracking with his shoulder turn:



From this video:

Unit turn.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I think everyone improves as they play and practice more. But generally its shot selection, consistency, footwork and timing that are the instigators of the improvement. I used to play tennis 10x a year max. Took it up seriously 2 years ago and now I can't even play against my old tennis cronies. I just destroy them and it's no fun for them. Is it because my kinetic chain magically improved? No, I just became far more consistent, was able to work on some little things like foot positioning, grip changes, shoulder turns etc.

So I think you can get better than you are even today. i don't think you'll be hitting like Nick Kyrgios or even any 5.0 rec player anytime soon.
Sure the more you play you will get better even if your strokes don't improve much. But unlike you I haven't taken a layoff from the game I play the same amounts every year. But I do try and improve mechanics and believe I have some but still have a long way to go.

There is some truth to it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. But I still believe that I can become a little more fluid and mechanically correct. Like I mentioned I only had a 1 handed backhand slice before but now I am developing a 2 handed backhand that I'm actually starting to use in match play. So right there is an improvement to my game that shows it can be done.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Motor neurons fire in set patterns to produce fluid athletic movements. The kinetic chain is a precise motor pattern of neuron firing. Everything is done by your brain at a largely unconscious level and most patterns were developed in childhood. If you are going to bring up kinetic chains into conversation about tennis strokes, you should at least know how they come about.

It's like riding a bike. At one point in your life, you couldn't do it. But then you could as you developed the appropriate motor pathways to react to slight shifts in balance. Now you don't even think about it. But put a 60 year old on a bike that had never ridden one before or performed any balance activity in his life and it could take months to learn. And he would never be as fluid or balanced on the bike as you or anyone else that learned as a child.
Your wrong, humans have the ability to learn and motor neurons and pathways u talk about are always capable of learning at any age.
You seem to think once u reach a certain age ur body shuts down and cant reprogram ur body and muscle memory, wow lol.. at what age does this magic happen? 20? 30? 40?

The body learns and builds new pathways and muscle memory at ANY age, tho as ypu get older the rate obviously slows down.
60 year old body degresed so that the processes take longer, but they dont vanish loke you say.

And yes, nobody can expect ro play like kyrgios, because he is:
1.super talented
2.super athletic
3.trained since the age of 4? 5? Thats 15 years of hard trainings almost daily for several hours a day, which rec player does that?

If a rec player was as athletic and had the talent of kyrgios but started at age 30 and trained exactly as much as kyrgios he also wouldnt get as good as him, because the body would progress slower already and also because after 15 years he would be 45 amd way past his athletic prime.

And also old ppl learn at a slower rate as you said, but they are not as fluid because they also have less balance, coordination, flexibility etc...

Like i said, I agree that a 15 year old has a better ability to learn and program his body and neurons and muscles than a 60 years old, but saying a 60 year old is incapable of that is plain wrong and disproven aswell.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Motor neurons fire in set patterns to produce fluid athletic movements. The kinetic chain is a precise motor pattern of neuron firing. Everything is done by your brain at a largely unconscious level and most patterns were developed in childhood. If you are going to bring up kinetic chains into conversation about tennis strokes, you should at least know how they come about.

It's like riding a bike. At one point in your life, you couldn't do it. But then you could as you developed the appropriate motor pathways to react to slight shifts in balance. Now you don't even think about it. But put a 60 year old on a bike that had never ridden one before or performed any balance activity in his life and it could take months to learn. And he would never be as fluid or balanced on the bike as you or anyone else that learned as a child.
yes, a person starting tennis at 60 will never look as fluid or balanced as a pro.

people who give up thinking they can improve will never improve either.... regardless the age.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Sure the more you play you will get better even if your strokes don't improve much. But unlike you I haven't taken a layoff from the game I play the same amounts every year. But I do try and improve mechanics and believe I have some but still have a long way to go.

There is some truth to it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. But I still believe that I can become a little more fluid and mechanically correct. Like I mentioned I only had a 1 handed backhand slice before but now I am developing a 2 handed backhand that I'm actually starting to use in match play. So right there is an improvement to my game that shows it can be done.
No doubt, unlearning old skills takes time and effort as does learning new skills. So, anyone looking to change their engrained technique has to decide for themselves if they want to invest the time and effort needed to make that transition, which varies from person to person, for different reasons.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
No doubt, unlearning old skills takes time and effort as does learning new skills. So, anyone looking to change their engrained technique has to decide for themselves if they want to invest the time and effort needed to make that transition, which varies from person to person, for different reasons.
But the answer is usually no because people are lazy and would rather make excuses and if they had the mentality to work hard and develop a better game, they wouldn't have had their hacker game in the first place.

J
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
But the answer is usually no because people are lazy and would rather make excuses and if they had the mentality to work hard and develop a better game, they wouldn't have had their hacker game in the first place.

J
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about players with developed traditional stroke production who are looking to transition to modern stroke production.

PS: Some are interested in making that effort, others not. It all depends on personal goals and priorities.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about players with developed traditional stroke production who are looking to transition to modern stroke production.

PS: Some are interested in making that effort, others not. It all depends on personal goals and priorities.
If you had real traditional strokes it's not much of a change at all to modern strokes.

If you have old hacker strokes and want modern hacker strokes, that's a big change.

J
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Tlm,

Post a video from years ago against one from now. So we can see if you look any different.
Here is a clip from the past. I didn't start playing tennis until my mid 40's. couldn't get the full court view so the first 2 show me then the 3rd show my partner which shows my weak shots.

So this shows from years back I was a full hacker and now I think I have progressed to a half hacker.

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL612A25ECCCD820CA

Here is another from recently.

 
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